Shells in magazine

MountainLion84 · 10-10-2003, 11:18 PM

I have question, that I hope someone can answer. We were deer hunting in Northeast oregon this week, and were stopped by the game warden (OSP) on a forest service road. We were transporting two of our hunters back to their rig. They were sitting in the bed of the truck, holding their rifles. with shells in the magazine. The warden issued one of them a warning. He would not or could not answer me as to what game law they were violating. When pressed by myself, he still couldn't come up with an answer other than to say "It doesn't look good guys." The guns in the cab with shells in them were okay. I can not find anything in the game laws to back his reasoning.
The law states no shells in the magazine in an ATV and/or a snowmobile. Anyone know what law we could have possibly violated?
Thanks

1pump · 10-11-2003, 12:29 AM

You sure it wasn't about sitting in the bed without seat belts? I know that's illegal.

Bill Monroe · 10-11-2003, 03:03 AM

I just wrote Sunday's column about four wheelers. The state police told me loaded firearms (as in loaded, not shells in magazine) are allowed in pickups and cars, but not in ATVs on public land...sounds strange, but that's where the law lies. In the back of a pickup? I'm not sure. There is a blanket law against hunting from any motor vehicle, but it's difficult to prove and that's why they use decoys.

In this case, my guess (only) is that he wrote the warning for hunting from a vehicle, since it doesn't seem illegal to have shells in the magazine. A warning, though, isn't recorded and carries little legal weight...I think...it's more a statement to the receiver that he or she is on the fence about something...

I have shells in the magazine all the time while coming and going from camp and the trailhead...never in the chamber though...

Get his name off the warning and either call him, or a superior...or me at the paper.

MasterCaster · 10-11-2003, 05:43 AM

I would also like to find out what the warning was officially for. We ride in the back of the truck from camp to the hunt and back all the time and never had any of the officers we have talked to say a thing about it.

:whazzup: They have never even checked our rifles.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

k9jeff · 10-11-2003, 10:17 AM

I knew I would not hear the last of this one. When I get back to work I will contact OSP in Salem and see what I can find out. I think he was refering to moving vehicles as far as I can figure out.
Although I was not there,, I was back in camp skinning my deer,,,,I did see and experience your frustration!!! :shocked:

I had a great time....

Jeff

Mello-Yello · 10-11-2003, 09:37 PM

I guess I'm missing something here. If he issued a warning, didn't the warning say what it was for? Seems a little senseless to give a warning if you aren't telling the individual what you are warning them of... :whazzup:

MountainLion84 · 10-12-2003, 05:52 AM

My point exactly mello yellow, it was a verbal warning> He took my buddies license and tag numbers, but would never answer my question as to the reason, other than to say "this doesn't look good guys." He only gave the warning to my partner, and not to his wife who was in the same position.

GutshotApe · 10-12-2003, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corlyn:
"this doesn't look good guys."

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">A couple of years ago the outdoor writer for a good-sized Oregon newspaper (not The Oregonian) wrote a report on opening day of deer season...and the accompanying photo showed a Toyota pickup driving down a public road with two guys in the back, their rifles pointing out to either side...and another rifle barrel poking out of the cab from passenger's window.

Guys, this does not look good...and does nothing for the image of hunters and hunting. Road hunters and pictures of road hunters give the anti-hunters all the ammo they need to sway voters against hunting.

Joe Schwab · 10-12-2003, 07:41 AM

A verbal warning is just that. No harm, no foul. Any game officer worth his salt should warn people to the hazards and visible implication of carrying a loaded firearm on the back of a pickup or in the cab. Cannot tell you how many incidents have occurred where the gun was accidentally discharged by a passenger removing the gun. No it it not against the law. That is why he gave a verbal warning, to advise that it is not a good practice. I hunt with my brother and nephews and the rule is, someone always asks, "are the guns empty?" before entering the vehicle.

There is a fine line between road hunting and carrying a loaded firearm. Is it that inconvenient to unload, or is the real reason so you can dismount quickly and shoot a deer if one runs across the road? Be honest now. You are asking the question of yourself.

SeanD · 10-12-2003, 12:59 PM

How in the heck does having rifles in the back of the pickup with a loaded magazine look any different then having rifles in the back of the pickup with empty magazines? I almost always have a loaded magazine in the pickup, with the chamber empty and the bolt open. I have never heard that it was illegal, if it was wouldnt having a loaded concealed pistol be illegal to carry in a vehicle too?? If the trooper couldnt verify that it was illegal, i seriously doubt it is. If it isnt illegal, then who cares what he thinks "looks good"...

MountainLion84 · 10-12-2003, 03:15 PM

Captn' Hook
I respect your opinions, but I really am concerned right now, about what law was violated. While safety and perception are great reasons to constantly re-evaluate the decisions we make, I still don't see what the law has to do with those issues. They should not be able to issue a warning for anyhting that they could not right a ticket for if they so choose. i do not see how shells in the magazine is less safe in the bed of the truck, then in the cab, but I do respect your opinion.

dla · 10-12-2003, 04:02 PM

Just as the ODFW lacks the authority to regulate the posession of handguns during bowhunting, the y also lack the authority to regulate the possession in vehicles, ATVs, etc. I was going to push to sponsor cleanup legislation this term but I never got around to it. The point I'm making is that unless the legislature specifically regulated some aspect of firearm possession neither the ODFW or OSP can "make up" new regulations.

I find it obscene that a CHL holder can be cited for carrying a firearm while on an ATV. Also, State parks, monuments, etc. do not have the authority to prohibit firearms. By the way, I wonder if the OSP ever expunged the records of the folks cited for carrying a handgun during bow season?

I may not like road hunting, but it is wrong to penalize the good guys in an attempt to catch the bad guys. OK, off my soap box now.

MountainLion84 · 10-12-2003, 04:09 PM

Good point. I actually asked the same officer, when he checked our deer in camp, if they would have to go back and reimburse and wipe the records for anyone cited for carrying a firearm during a big game season without a tag. He replied that the answer was no, the change in regulations was not retroactive. I actually kept my mouth shut this time, but I wanted to ask how you can be held accountable for a law that legally could not exist. If I had ever been cited for that, I would certainly push it.

Mello-Yello · 10-12-2003, 05:06 PM

Corlyn, with all due respect, I think you're making way too much of this. You repeatedly state that this person was "issued" a warning. In my opinion, that is not the case. What this officer did was really no different than advising your friend not to run with scissors.

He was just giving some advice.

I wasn't there, so I have no way of reading everything into this that's possible, but the more I listen, the more it sounds like the officer was simply emphasizing that people riding in the back of a rig with weapon in hand simply doesn't look good.

If the officer said "if I see you do this again I'm gonna cite you", that would be a warning. Advising someone is simply that, advising. Taking down one's tag and license number isn't all that out-of-the-ordinary, in fact it used to be a very common practice in the "old days".

You were breaking no laws (I think that's pretty obvious by now), you and everyone else are free to ride in the back of a rig with a weapon in hand (no cartridges in the chamber, of course). The only difference now is, you know that, like it or not, there is at least one game officer that thinks it doesn't look good.

al fine :grin:

M-Y

MountainLion84 · 10-13-2003, 06:20 AM

M-Y. When the officer says "I am going to give you a warning, I could cite you, and I do not think there is a judge in this area that wouldn't back the charge," I consider that a little more than a friendly reminder. Plus the constant stare he gave me as I pushed for an explanation, didn't make me too happy.

Bait O' Eggs · 10-13-2003, 07:38 AM

All game officers will record your name and lic. number when they encounter you. It is a record of who was in an area at a particular time. If they find a violation like a bunch of deer shot and wasting, they will at least have a start of who was hunting in the area to start looking for the outlaw.

The gammie is right "it doesnt look good", but it wasnt against the law, even Capt Hook (ex gammie) said in an earlier post that it wasnt illegal. Sounds like the guy you ran into didnt do a very good job of dealing with the situation. There has been more than one person busted for driving down the road with hunters in the back of the truck shooting animals. Of course hunters being transported, and hunters awaiting that shot look the same in the back of the truck.

If you didnt get a ticket, sounds like you didnt do anything wrong. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Or at least didnt get caught

Old Coot · 10-13-2003, 08:53 AM

Corlyn: Could the warning have been for "hunting with the aid of a vehicle?" As explained to me by the enforecement guys, if you are travelling at significantly less than the normal speed for the roadway and conditions, ie, road hunting, you are in violation of the law. While road hunting is amazingly common, it is illegal in Oregon.

MountainLion84 · 10-13-2003, 04:10 PM

I did get a response from the OSP, which I do appreciate. Still very vague, but I am beginning to think that is the nature of the beast in these issues. grey seems to be the prevailing color, so I'll have to be satisfied with what I got.
"Although it
certainly did not rise to the level of a citation, we as fish & wildlife
enforcement officers become very concerned when we observe hunters in
the back of an open pick-up with loaded weapons. Although this is
certainly not a violation of law, it does lead us to believe that the
hunters may be hunting from that vehicle. This becomes very evident
when we are working a decoy, as the vast majority of hunters will not
exit the bed of the vehicle before firing. A trophy buck along the side
of the road is a tempting target, and the deer will likely be gone
before a hunter could exit the vehicle and step off the road The
reason this concerns us is that it is a serious safety issue, as there
may be other vehicles around, or a shooter may lose their balance and
the weapon discharge in the direction of another person while attempting
to take a deer.

Again, I want to reiterate that riding in the back of a pick-up with a
loaded firearm is not a violation of law. However, hunting from motor
vehicle and aiming a firearm from a moving motor vehicle is. Hunt is
defined as take or attempt to take wildlife. Without talking to the
officer, it does appear a warning was appropriate, if for no other
reason than to stress the safety issues involved. There was nothing in
your email that would suggest to me that a citation needed to be
written."

Joe Schwab · 10-13-2003, 09:00 PM

I'll throw out one scenario and then leave this one alone. It is obvious that there are those who do not want to be "bothered" by anyone trying to enforce some very difficult laws. I encountered a hunter several years ago driving down a logging road with the gun barrel poking out the window. He pulled alongside and stopped with the barrel pointing in my direction. I stepped aside and asked him if the gun was loaded. He said "yes". I asked him if he was hunting, he said "yes". Then quickly added "not from the vehicle". "Sure buddy", I thought. I was rather abrupt at moving the "loaded" gun from my direction and "verbally warned him" he was close to getting cited for hunting with the aid of a motor vehicle. Yes, technically he was within his rights. All I can say is go ahead and continue down the road with your loaded guns. It is your right. If you ever want to talk to a guy who got his leg half blown off when his partner exited the vehicle with his loaded gun. let me know. Out!!

Hoosier Daddy · 10-14-2003, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Just as the ODFW lacks the authority to regulate the posession of handguns during bowhunting, the y also lack the authority to regulate the possession in vehicles, ATVs, etc..................

...............neither the ODFW or OSP can "make up" new regulations..........

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">ODFW lacks the authority to regulate anything, because OSP does the regulating. And ODFW does not make up new regulations, the state Fish and Wildlife Commission does.