Gratuity

[ILTH]

I am going on an elk hunt with 2 of my partners. We each paid $1000.00 for a guide to provide a non-guided drop camp in which he provides everything but the food and our personal gear. My question is it customary to pay a gratuity at the end of the trip?

[NORMAFAN]

I think so, but not at the scale of if the guide was with you. I would base it on the quality of the camp that is set up for you and the quality of the location. If the camp is a rat hole then no, but if it has everything and more that is needed then I would tip him 50-100.

[wilbur1]

Hey guys, a gratuity is really for services over and above what is negotiated for. If you rent a horse for two hours, do you think its proper to give the stable a tip. If the guide did things beyond the mere business transaction, such as good tips, help in something not in the business deal, etc., a small tip is proper. But lets not get carried to the extreme that it is something we need to do.
My biggest gripe is how society thinks it is manadatory to tip for a meal when normally the waitress is merely doing her job and has not given you any service beyond the mere necessary. The common argument is that they are underpaid and rely on the tips.Lets get back to relality. It is the emplyers responsibility to adeuately pay his help, the same as many employers do with their employees. I refused to help the employer make more profits; he must be responsible for adeuate pay to his employees.
In my past job I had the opportunity to investigate a multitude of business's and tips received, and how those tips were given to the waitress. Many tips are divided between bus boys, the main hostess in a large fancy restaurant, etc., and many watresses ended up with half or less of the actual tip. The only thing this did was add to TAX EVASION. Since the Gov had rules that all tips over a certain pecentage, and I believe that figure was 9% 30 years ago, ALL businesses took the 9 % figure and reported that to t he IRS as tips received by the watress. However, the Gov tests and testimony back then proved that tips averaged about three times that, and in large restaruants it m uch higher. I had three daughters who earned on the average of $200 plus for an average night in an average restaurant, and as much as $400 on good nights; yet they reported only $25 a night. While tax evasion is rampid, especially in the underground economy, nobody looks at the morality of this, or the harm it does to those citizens who work for wages on a W-2. Worst , the employer is getting a huge brake in not paying what he is suspose to pay----a good living wage to his help.

So,you be the judge---should you tip the guide merely because you think it is a good custom, or because it is a "gift" from you for appreciate of something above his duties.

[Hare's Ear]

Wilbur1 - Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Are you advocating putting the screws to the employer, who under reports tip income, by not tipping the waitstaff? I feel that any server that does his/her job well for minimum wage deserves a tip. Do you believe that minimum wage is a living wage?

[Smj]

When you stay in a hotel room do you stop by the office on the way out and tip the manager/owner?

This tipping craze is out of hand, I provide a service to people, I charge what I feel is apropriate, no need for tips. Of course come Christmas time(Thanksgiving time for my customers of the Hebrew faith) a few extra $$$s with the payment is always appreciated, AND results in extra special service the following year!

Smj

[Shortbus Flashers]

I personally get very upset when my wife says we MUST give a tip, like its a law. I am of the view that if the pay isnt enough, find a different job. I do my very best to help my customers every time, and do not expect a tip. When I hear the tips are supposed to be 15% or more, it just makes me fume! There better be some huge backside kissing for that type of money! Wilber, I agree, someone is making more money cause we are paying the employees for em!

[Herring Problem]

Although, there is some truth to Catchnrelease statment, giving a tip is up to the person who is tipping. I hate going into a resturant and having a 15 to 20 percent gratuity added to my bill . I decide what the tip will be not the resturant. I have owned a couple of businesses and tips are rewards for the worker who goes beyond the required service. Keeping your coffee or soda glass full without asking, bringing extra bread, checking with you to see if everything is ok ,do you want something else, or a drink, or desert. Service gets rewards, Just bringing a menu and taking my order and delivering it and never getting a refill or service, No tip! I reward for above and beyond.

A dry camp for Elk hunting does not require a tip for the person who drops you off, you have paid for that service. Now let's say that person leads you to an area that you see and kill your elk. He helps you gut and pack it out. Not likely on a drop camp, but for argument, Would you not tip this person now. I would!

Tipping is for the person to make that choice to pay or not to pay and how much!

My soninlaw worked on a charter boat and recived some nice tips. He earned every penny, How? He helped people aboard catch fish. Example: He had a 9 year old who had never been on a boat, less on the ocean, he coaxed them along and was able to help this person catch their fish and had this persons dad so excited about his child being able to fish and catch the largest fish and win a forty dollar pool from the other adults,he tipped my soninlaw $100.00. He never expected or asked for a tip. he helped this child because this if his passion and he wanted to share.

Now this young man helped every person on the boat catch bigger fish and their limits. But he went above the call of duty by helping a new fisherperson to the sport. He could of entertained the adults and left this person to be with thier dad and not learn anything.

Every adult on the boat complimented him and the captain for a great time. Tipping allowed and earned.

So Wilbur1 if you don't want to tip, this is your right. Those of us who want to tip, we will tip. This is our choice and right to do.

You do bring a good argument about tipping.
win ter here boat is wintered. Now buy new toys for next year.

[PRINCEMASTER]

This is a great post. In this day and age I believe that tips are suppose to be a reward, but much to often is an expectation that to many have. I have tipped above the 15% when the service was real good. On the other hand i have a real problem tipping some snooty server who I saw three times that night. Once to take the order-once to bring the food and that sometimes is handled by other people-and once to bring the check.

Unfortunately the other practice I have run into is employers hiring help with the promise that the tips are good. Customer service has gone from how can I serve you to what are you, as a customer, going to to for me as the server.
Off the soapbox now and back to my corner.

[Birdnest]

Ahh the sounds of cheapos banding together in chorus.

As a person who worked their way through college on tips, I always love when people say they don't tip based on philosophical reasons...bs. If you are toooo cheap to tip, don't blame the server, food, manager, etc, etc. Admit that you are cheap and run through the McDonald's drive through.

The history of tipping has evolved. TIP stands for "To Insure Promptness" and was given before the meal to insure promptness. I think if would be funny to go back that and see how many people hang onto their ways.

If we magically went to a no tipping situation this is what you would expect to see. You know that cute, energetic waitress that use to take care of you...gone. You remember how it use to take about 15 minutes to get your food...gone. You remember how you use to pay about 7-8 bucks for a burger...gone. Coffee refills...

Waiting tables sucks. It is a hard job babysitting 30 adults and catering to each of the individual needs. What makes it a hard job is that your server wants you to get timely service, enjoy yourself, and tip generously.

If you take that incentive away you would end up with a hord of mindless idiots that could care less when you get your food, as long as you get it...eventually.

So, God forbid, you ever get hurt or sick in my neck of the woods and look up to see who is taking care of you...you will see somebody who put themselves through school on tips.

Joe

[Lucky one]

You may be a little biased there huh? As a person who has worked in a tip heavy industry (not waiting tables) I think tips are something that people give you to say, "good job" or "thank you for going the extra mile". Tips aren't something that you are just entitled to for doing your job. They are also useful to indicate to people when they have done a crappy job. If a waiter/waitress took my order and brought me food and treated me poorly do I really need to tip them? I don't think so, but if they come around ask how things were, refill water etc. then I'm more than happy to tip them and tell them I appreciate there service.

[Flying Roast Beef]

I've never been a waiter but I've known a few waitresses. I believe a lot of them are only paid minumum wage and depend on tips for a living. In my experience waitresses work very hard for a living and I tend to tip well for good service.

[reelbigfish72]

There's no need to post any more on this thread, this discussion should sum up the argument:

EDDIE
All right. Everybody cough up some green for the little lady.
Come on. Throw in a buck.
MR. PINK
Uh-uh. I don't tip.
EDDIE
You don't tip?
MR. PINK
No - I don't believe in it.
EDDIE
You don't believe in tipping?
MR. BLUE
You know what these chicks make? They make squat.
MR. PINK
Don't give me that. She don't make enough money, she can quit.
EDDIE
I don't even know anybody who'd have the guts to say that. Let me just get this straight. You don't ever tip, huh?
MR. PINK
I don't tip because society says I have to. Alright, I mean I'll tip if somebody really deserves a tip, if they really put forth the effort, I'll give 'em something extra, but I mean this tipping automatically is for the birds.
I mean as far as I'm concerned they're just doing their job.
MR. BLUE
Hey, this girl was nice.
MR. PINK
She was OK - but she wasn't anything special.
MR. PINK
Hey Look, I ordered coffee, right? Now we've been here a long time, and she's only filled my cup three times. When I order coffee, I want it filled six times
MR. BLONDE
Six times? Well, you know, what if she's too busy?
MR. PINK
Words "too busy" shouldn't be in a waitress' vocabulary.
EDDIE
Excuse me, Mr. Pink - the last thing you need's another cup of coffee.
MR. PINK
I mean these ladies aren't starving to death. They make minimum wage. You know, I used to work minimum wage. And when I did, I wasn't lucky enough to have a job society deemed tip-worthy.
MR. BLUE
You don't care they're counting on your tips to live?
(Mr. Pink rubs two of his fingers together.)
MR. PINK
You know what this is? It's the world's smallest violin playing just for the waitresses.
MR. WHITE
You don't have any idea what you're talking about. These people bust their rear. This is a hard job.
MR. PINK
So's working at McDonald's, but you don't feel the need to tip them, do you? Why not? They're servin ya food. But no, society says don't tip these guys over here, but tip these guys over here. That's bull.
MR. WHITE
Waitressing is the number one occupation for female noncollege graduates in this country. It's the one job basically any woman can get and make a living on. The reason is because of their tips.
MR. PINK
(pauses) Forget all that.
MR. PINK
Hey, I'm very sorry that the government taxes their tips. That's messed up. That ain't my fault. It would appear that waitresses are just one of the many groups the government messes with on a regular basis. You show me a paper says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it. Put it to a vote, I'll vote for it. But what I won't do is play ball. And this non-college bull you're giving me, I got two words for that: "Learn to freakin' type." Cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent, you're in for a big surprise.
MR. ORANGE
Hey - he's convinced me. Give me my dollar back.
EDDIE
Hey! Leave the dollars there.
JOE
All right, ramblers, let's get ramblin'. Wait a minute. Who didn't throw in?
MR. ORANGE
Mr. Pink.
JOE
Mr. Pink? Why not?
MR. ORANGE
He don't tip.
JOE
He don't tip? What do you mean you don't tip?
MR. ORANGE
He don't believe in it.
JOE
Shut up. What do you mean you don't believe in it? Come on, you, cough up a buck, you cheap jerk. I paid for your breakfast.
MR. PINK
Alright - since you paid for the breakfast, I'll put in, but normally I would never do this.
JOE
Never mind what you normally would do. Just cough in your buck like everybody else. Thank you.

[Abalone]

I usually tip the Costumary about of 15 percent or more.

That includes my Barber

However: There are times when I don't. Like when I am broke and I had to scrape together enough Change to eat.

Should I feel guilty for not providing a Tip ?

Not long ago my wife and I went to bar in Seaside where we were seated by a nice Waitress. We had a dinner and we had a few drinks. We were really pushing the budget. In fact we were way over the budget because of the high price for drinks and food. Grant it ! Somebody Else much richer may have sat where we did..But the waitress really made a big scene when we gave her a small tip. We gave her all the Cash we had of Five Dollers.

Because she had embarred my wife and I and the damage was done, I took back the tip.

Tip Psycology.

I tip because I want to not because I have to. I don't like feeling obligated to tip....and if I did I would not partronize such places.

Tipping Guides ?? I guess it depends on if you plan to return. Is it customary to tip a Guide ?

Four people go on a Guided fishing trip at $200.00 a person per day. What would you consider fair ?

[Hare's Ear]

Reelbig - Did you memorize that scene from Reservoir Dogs?

[funfishin]

nice i was thinking of reseviour dogs as i read the posts....lol it may be the greatest dialog from any movie except clerks

[sandman]

I personally get very upset when my wife says we MUST give a tip, like its a law. I am of the view that if the pay isnt enough, find a different job. I do my very best to help my customers every time, and do not expect a tip. When I hear the tips are supposed to be 15% or more, it just makes me fume! There better be some huge backside kissing for that type of money! Wilber, I agree, someone is making more money cause we are paying the employees for em!

Yep,I agree.Don't like being a server,go wash dishes!

[reelbigfish72]

Hare's Ear:
I've almost memorized the scene, but in this case I cut and pasted it from another website then cleaned up the naughty words. I think it sums up this debate perfectly!

[TheCamel]

gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: gr&-'tü-&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service.

Many of the replies sound more like an obligation.

IF <u>you</u> feel the service was above average and <u>want</u> to recognize such service with a monetary gift, then do what you wish.

[Okie]

I eat three meals in a resturant and I don't tip. I get excellent service and the waitress knows she will not get a tip. She also knows if I don't get good service I'll take my business some place else. So I'm always treated with respect and she always gets my business with no tip. Tips are a waste of money, they don't accomplish what they are intended to achieve.

There are good waitress and bad ones and tiping has very little to do with it. It's a form of black mail to say it is required.

[Rimshot]

Okie are you serious?! If you are then I can guarantee you the only reason she gives you good service is because she values her job and she is a professional. I promise she is cussing you out around the corner and NOT happy to see you when you come in. Do you think she would really care if you took your business somewhere else? What would it matter to her? Her employer would care though and thats why she grits her teeth and smiles big for you.

[reelbigfish72]

Not to knock your tipping policy, but why would the waitress care if you take your business elsewhere if you don't tip? It's great she gives you good service, must be a real sweet lady, but I don't think she'd miss your lack of tips if you went somewhere else.

[Rimshot]

Ahh the sounds of cheapos banding together in chorus.

Exactly!

It's amazing to me how people convince themselves it's ok not to tip. I bet these same people go to those "free" car washes that kids put on to raise money for sports and such and don't tip either. I can see their argument now - "Hey, the sign said free car wash. I didn't see anything above and beyond that. They washed my car, period. No tip!"

Look folks, here is the deal - You need to ask yourselves why you go to certain restaurants. If it's your anniversary and you choose a certain restaurant why did you choose it? My guess is because you know you can count on that restaurant to deliver the goods on your special night. You want everything to be perfect and you know it will be. Why? Because it has a professional staff that takes service and your dining experience seriously. How do you attract and retain mature professionals? Tips.

Contrary to popular beliefs here restaurants do NOT make a lot of money. Why do you think they are near the top of the list of failed business ventures? Just to give you some figures - a nice restaurant has a food cost of %30 - %40. Labor cost around %17 -". Bar cost around %20. Now figure in all the overhead - rent, water, electricity, etc. Get the picture? I can tell you the last place I managed ( a popular steakhouse) if we had a month where we grossed $300k we would be lucky to bring $30k to the bottom line. That's right %10. Of this %30k the GM got %10, the DM got %9, the food tech and service tech each got %2, and so on. Not a lot of money left over for the management really.

So yes, we could go to a no tip situation and have the restaurant pay us what we are worth but you would have to be willing to pay $40 for that steak dinner instead of $25. Are you? Didn't think so. The money has to come from somewhere or every restaurant would have a staff of high school kids. That would be fun wouldn' it?

So the next time you take your honey out for dinner on a special night ask yourself if you would want to be waited on by a 17 year old kid who is working his first job OR a mature trained professional. If you come to my restaurant every need will be anticipated, you will want for nothing. Your food will be perfect and on time. You drink will never go past 1/2 full. I will be attentive, but not intrusive. I will treat you with respect and serve you with a smile. You will feel like a kings and queens dining by yourselves in your own restaurant with the entire staff focusing on just YOU! I will do all of these things for you - but they are not free.

If you don't want to tip then go to a place that just has order takers - Denny's, Sharis, fast-food, etc. If you want to dine and be served then go to a nicer restaurant but be willing to pay for it.

I will end by saying these comments are aimed at the cheapo's that never tip period. For those of you that say you tip based on service that's they way it should be. If you get crappy service then leave a crappy tip or no tip at all - please. But if you get stellar service then you better be laying down %20+.

[Silver Hilton]

When I take my wife out for a nice dinner, we typically end up spending about 60-80 bucks on food, and 20-30 bucks on drinks. That comes to around $100 bucks for the meal. Now, the pro-tipping folks think I could cough up 15-20% for the people taking my order and carrying my meal to the table.

It takes us about an hour to an hour and a half to eat a nice dinner. If a waiter has a zone of five tables, and they all eat like we do, and they all tip 20%, that waiter will make $100 in an hour. For writing down an order correctly, and carrying food 100 feet. And for occasionally coming back to fill my water.

I make good money in a trade that I have worked at for 20 years, and I don't make $100 an hour. And if the waiter has to split the money with bus people, and only makes $50 an hour, I don't really care. That is an absurd wage for that skill. Used to be that 10% was a decent tip, and we have been blackmailed into thinking that we are being cheap at that price.

If I thought the tip had anything to do with the service I got, I'd feel different. As it is, I think a bunch of folks have come to feel entitled to a good living for an easy job.

[Shortbus Flashers]

I'm with you Silver!! I may be cheap, but to think that I should have to pay someone 20% when someone else is also paying them is crazy! 10% I can go with that if the service is good, but gosh almighty, the offence when the tip is only 10% you would think it is a slap in the face!

[Smj]

Okie....You need to start checking between the folds of your food....very carefully. Your waitress is most likely puting something special in it...That's why she always has a smile on her face when you walk in the door. Maybe if you could get a look at the staff when you're taking your first bite of a plate of food...are they cringing, giggling?

Smj

[TundraIII]

wilbur1..........your rationale for not tipping waitstaff is a bunch of hooey...

Rimshot....THANK YOU!!

[Abalone]

That's it.

I am never eating out again.

The food in Restraunts isn't that healthy anyhow.
You ever see how they load the food up with Butter, Sugar, Fat not to mention all the stories of how the Chef's spit in your food. And check out the Restrooms. The can be filthy.


But I will still tip my Baber, fishing guide etc.

[rimrock]

We may just be making this a little more complicated then necessary IMO.

Particularly in Portland we are fortunate to have MANY wonderful restaurants which is important to understand as it relates to tipping. When my wife and I go to a nice upscale restaurant I will no matter what tip 15%. Now if I felt the service was below par there is little chance we will return to that establishment. If the service is of good stature and what would be expected of an upscale restaurant I will leave at least 20%.

A funny thing happens when I show appreciation to the server and complement the manager. As I return over and over again to these establishments without any prompting from my wife or I we get particularly excellent seating, the service even gets better if that were possible even to an almost embarrassing level, and on and on it goes.

I never expect these things to continue nor are the “extras” important for me to return to the restaurant. Generally speaking no matter what services an individual or business provides everyone appreciates being appreciated. And at times those being particularly appreciated are likely to express it back.

[Okie]

Your analsis of this is way off the mark. After eating in resturants for three meals a day for 35 years, I stand by my origial policy. No tipping.

Cheap skate. Not by a long shot. You really don't know me.
Probably one of the most generous person you will know. I don't have to bribe anyone to get good service. I pay for it and earn it the old fashion way. I work for it.

[rimrock]

Did I call anyone cheap? I don’t think so. It’s not my way to be derogatory or how I would desire to interact with anyone.

For me showing appreciation isn’t so much about what people do for me, but more what I can do for people. That’s my definition of generosity – it’s not subject to the actions or performance of others. That’s just my style.

The hotel and restaurant service industry may be one of the most difficult positions, not technically speaking so much but interacting with the general public is taxing. For example on ifish how many boorish comments are typed in each day by the general public? What if your job was dealing with people like this on a daily basis? YIKES!

My wife worked in the hotel industry and could speak to the daily encounters she’d have which highlighted its share of challenges. From propositions she’d receive from some which was surprising, to the arrogant, the conceited, the demanding…people she’d deal with in her job and then turn and handle them in a polite manner.

This is in part why I tip as I explained. I know these servers have enough poor interactions with people which shouldn’t really be a part of their job either. For me it’s a matter of courtesy and an expression of appreciation. Now if the service was poor I leave a simple 15% tip and won’t return. Like I said it’s just my style.

[Mark Vickers]

When I take my wife out for a nice dinner, we typically end up spending about 60-80 bucks on food, and 20-30 bucks on drinks. That comes to around $100 bucks for the meal. Now, the pro-tipping folks think I could cough up 15-20% for the people taking my order and carrying my meal to the table.

It takes us about an hour to an hour and a half to eat a nice dinner. If a waiter has a zone of five tables, and they all eat like we do, and they all tip 20%, that waiter will make $100 in an hour.

Your math appears to make sense, and I cannot argue with it, but my personal observations do not support it.

I used to live in an apartment building downtown. Across the hall from me was the head waiter at one of the most upscale restaurants in downtown Portland. He made okay money, but not near to the level you think he would. Consider that the dinner rush hour is only a couple of hours and usually only a few nights a week. If he did make $100/hr, he's not doing it every hour all week long. My guess was that he was making about $35k/yr. He was a career professional waiter. That's not all that great when you think about the apex of his earning scale.

[Thumper]

Now if the service was poor I leave a simple 15% tip and won’t return. Like I said it’s just my style.

For lousy service you only tip 15%. You are a really nice fellow.

[alaskan]

So everyone agrees, on the tipping for waitstaff at restaurants. But how about the guy at the tackle shop who spent an hour showing you every reel in the case, and then put the line on for you? Or at the gunshop who showed you every gun, and scope in the store, then helped pick out a holster or mounted the scope for you? Do they deserve a tip?

[Freakwater]

Oregon is different than many states. Other states do not have to pay minimum wage to wait staff. Last I was in Tennessee a waiter made $2.10/hr., about half the minimum wage at the time. Tips were their wage.

Tipping wait staff is not customary in Austrailia. Guess what? The service sucks!

Freakwater

[TheRogue]

alaskan, great post, some will respond, "but that's his job!"....to which I say, but that's the waiter's or waitresses job also.

My brother made his way up the ladder, starting at diswasher when he was 14, and now he's the executive chef at an Omni Hotel (high class stuff). He ALWAYS leaves at least 25%, if not more, I've seen him leave $50 on a $100 bill!!

He says "you don't understand how bad the food service folks have it!".

My response "if it's that bad, go do something else!"

My mother, who tends bar on the weekends because she's a total gossip and loves the company, tips at least 20% all the time, and I hear the same from her....and I give the same answer. She regularly has nights on the weekends in the summer where she averages $40 per hour, that's after splitting tips with wait staff and the cook!

And yes, the automatic gratuity added to the bill just really irks me also. If there needs to be a surcharge added for a large group, fine, but don't call it an automatic "tip".

That being said, I normally tip 15-20% if it's personal, attentative service. If not, I don't leave a tip, and if the service borders upon being rude, I'll say something on my way out the door.

TR

[Wang]

I'm sure retail stores don't allow their employees the pleasure of accepting tips.

[rimrock]

But how about the guy at the tackle shop who spent an hour showing you every reel in the case, and then put the line on for you? Or at the gunshop who showed you every gun, and scope in the store, then helped pick out a holster or mounted the scope for you? Do they deserve a tip?

A pretty good question really.

First of all these examples aren’t part of the pay structure for an employee as in a gratuity oriented profession. Even with that said I still make a point to pass on appreciation of an individual who provides above par service.

For example I recently required the service of a professional plumber for a home repair. The individual who did the work was extremely polite, diligent and consciences. After he left I called his employer and told him about his quality employee and passed on my appreciation. As things occur I later ran into this plumber at Home Depot, he recognized me and came up and thanked me for the nice compliment I passed on to his boss. It meant a lot to him and he thanked me kindly.

“Tips” can be more than monetary. In principle people simply appreciate being appreciated. A kind word goes a long way. Sure I could have had the attitude “he did a job he was hired for” but for me that’s a little short sighted. People in general can be quick to complain but not nearly as quick to compliment.

[Rimshot]

I make good money in a trade that I have worked at for 20 years, and I don't make $100 an hour. And if the waiter has to split the money with bus people, and only makes $50 an hour, I don't really care. That is an absurd wage for that skill. Used to be that 10% was a decent tip, and we have been blackmailed into thinking that we are being cheap at that price.

If I thought the tip had anything to do with the service I got, I'd feel different. As it is, I think a bunch of folks have come to feel entitled to a good living for an easy job.

You know what - I'm really offended by those comments. You honestly think I'm beneath you? That's the most ignorant and rude thing I have heard. Listen Mr. Tradeskill worker, just because you work what I'm sure you think is a "normal" job, doesn't make you better than me. Maybe you and all the other people that are suggesting I don't deserve the money I get are in the wrong job. And you know what, from your comments I can tell you have never done my job so how and the hell could you speak to how easy it is? Maybe it's because it looks easy to you when you go out to eat. Well guess what Mr. Tradeskill - it's supposed to. You might be amazed at how frantic and stressed your waiter is inside but he has trained himself to keep his cool so YOUR experience is a great one. I know for a fact that if you had to work my section on a Saturday night you would cry like a little girl in under an hour.

The bottom line is I'm sure I have never worked your job so I would never dream of saying you were overpaid for what you do. I can't believe you would make those statements about mine.

As far as your math goes - you are way off. I see how it could make sense to you but again, you have never actually worked the job so you have no clue. Mark Vickers has it right so read his post.

One last thing for all you cheapo's - Do you realize that waiters have to claim a certain percentage of their sales or face getting audited by the IRS? That number is higher than has been suggested in this discussion. A number of people just got nailed in my restaurant and they were claiming 13%. The IRS interviews the restaurant before they audit the individuals and they get a magic average number for tips. For ours it's 14.5%. Anybody below that gets audited. So for those of you leaving no tip or less than 15% just know that I'm paying taxes on what you didn't leave.

[TheRogue]

1. Easy job? No way, for the most part, not any more than anyone else's, and more demanding than many.....a good wait staff is awesome to watch.

2. So...you're saying you get taxed on 15% (more or less). So, by that, you're saying anyone who doesn't leave a tip of at least 15% is screwing you over? Well, it sounds to me like the taxman has also forgot the reason for gratuity, and expects it to be a mandatory thing, at a 15% minimum.

I'll stand by my position....15-20% for good personal service, nothing for cruddy service. Otherwise, please have a sign at the door that says "Mandatory 15% tip, regardless of service" and I'll make sure I eat elsewhere.

TR

[Rimshot]

TR,

1. Thank you for understanding that.
2. Yes, that's the way it is. I'm not saying they are "screwing me over" neccessarily - I just want the people that ALWAYS leave nothing to know that I pay taxes on money I never get. Just something for them to think about. Think about how much Okie's waitress has paid out of her pocket for him to eat there.

Your last statement is right on the money. I don't know any good waiter that EXPECTS a great tip no matter what. The good ones work their butts off to earn it. If they aren't trying then leave a crappy tip or no tip at all - please.

Thanks for posting

[HammondSeaRanger]

hey while your at it tip your local Officer/EMS/FireMan .....








j/k

[jvp]

definition of tips is:

To
Insure
Perfect
Service

In the early days tips were given before the meal at the time of being seated.

just another worthless trivia

[Smj]

LOVE IT!! Great post Rimshot....I know where you're comming from, my EX was a waitress for many years and it is hard work, you nailed it in your post. Back then in Utah she made $1.90 an hour + tips, the Gub-ment would tax her on the difference between $1.90 and minimum wage, which was $3.50/hour at the time I think, so she'd pay taxes on $1.60/hour whether she made that money or not, most times she did a bit better than that $1.60/hour if I remember right. That doesn't seem half bad compared to what the Gub-ment does to wait-persons now.

Smj

[Okie]

. Think about how much Okie's waitress has paid out of her pocket for him to eat there.

For your information. No waitress has ever paid out of her pocket for my meal. Your way out of line on this one.
Good Luck!]

[OwyheeKIller]

Why are people so cheap?

[ET]

. Think about how much Okie's waitress has paid out of her pocket for him to eat there.

For your information. No waitress has ever paid out of her pocket for my meal. Your way out of line on this one.
Good Luck!]

I don't think he is way out of line. The logic is sound. If your bill was $10. You paid $10 to the restaurant. The waitress is paid by the restaurant but the IRS collects extra taxes from the waitress based on the tips she is expected to have received. On your $10 meal, the IRS demands that she claim a tip of $1.50 and pay taxes on that amount.

Let's assume the waitress doesn't earn much of a living (How could she, she isn't tipped well!) and pays 10% taxes.

For every $10 that you spend at the restaurant, she must give $0.15 to the IRS.

You can play with the numbers, but the waitress is losing money by serving you!

BTW...Very interesting thread!

[ET]

In your defense, Okie. I hate the TIP system too. I really hate the stupid jars put out at places like Starbucks, etc..

Having lived in Japan for eight years, I can tell you that the service there is generally outstanding and if you leave money on the table after a meal, they will track you down to return it.

Good service shouldn't have to be bought! I tip 10-15%. 20% is outrageous. What's next? 25% then 30%? Hell, if we really expect good service we should just double the bill! Matter of fact, maybe we all should just change our pay scales and be paid on tips.

[Abalone]

My daughter used to waitress. When she complained about the conditions I would tell her.

" Now you have a reason to to back to school to learn something and get ahead ".

She doesnt' waitress anymore.......

If you are working in an upscale restaurant you can expect to get tipped well, if you are working in Chain restaurant or a dive consider the kinds of costumers you are servicing.

Not the rich generous type if you know what I mean.

[Okie]

I would like to thank the individuals who came to my rescue. I was beginning to think I was fighting a lone battle. I didn't arive at my decesion to not tip with out using some very serious thinking on the subject. Thank all of you who see my side of the picture.
I always try to be fair with everyone
THANK YOU ALL.

[Rimshot]

For your information. No waitress has ever paid out of her pocket for my meal. Your way out of line on this one

Yes they have. ET has it right on the money. That is exactly how it works. So every waitress that you stiff PAYS for you to have been there. You can say it isn't so all you want, but that IS the way it works. I didn't set it up that way, your government did.

I can tell you this - My gross earnings for two weeks are around $600ish ($7.25 x 80hrs). My take home pay is $120-$140 because of all the tips I HAVE TO claim - wheather I got them or not.

Look folks, if you don't believe in tipping fine. Just don't go into a place and let a waiter work their butt off for you KNOWING they are hoping for a good tip. If you don't believe in the system fine, but then don't take advantage of it.

And for those of you who have said tipping has nothing to do with the service you get - do me a favor. The next time you go out to eat casually let the waiter know when he greets you that you don't believe in tipping. All of you that don't tip claim you are fair, honest, and generous people. Wouldn't that be fair and honest to let someone know BEFORE they wait on you that you won't be tipping them? After all it won't affect your service right?

[rimrock]

Soooo, it’s only about money???

For argument sake lets say Mr.W is a waiter at an upscale restaurant in Portland and with wages and tips makes $50,000/yr (I know this is way high but I’m trying to make a point).

Now Mr.W makes $50K/yr…….so what? Good for him.

He has worked his way up in his profession to a top restaurant with skills that are a commodity people enjoy. If this costs me around $35 on a $150 meal over a period of 1 to 1.5 hrs for a waiter who is at the top of their profession…great! I’m not about to begrudge anyone for what they can make. In fact I want to know where Mr.W works so I can sit in his section on some Saturday night. It’s not only the food that makes the evening but the setting of the restaurant and most important the staff! To enjoy Mr.W’s services to help make our night out even better for something like $35-$40 isn’t unreasonable. Why shouldn’t he make a good living off of his skill? I make a good living off mine. Why the concern with how much Mr.W makes?

In day to day life we always pay for expertise in all its forms – we always pay for levels of experience and professionalism…right? Be it a general contractor, engineer, fishing guide, waiter…whatever.

[Boatdog]

I never knew there were people that dined at full service restaurants regularly and didn't tip, EVER. Wow!

Pry open your wallet (squeeeeeeeeeeeek) and do what 99% (just a guess) of regular consumers do.


I don't think 10% from anyone is asking too much, for good service. and that would be a minimum.

[Rimshot]

He has worked his way up in his profession to a top restaurant with skills that are a commodity people enjoy... Why shouldn’t he make a good living off of his skill? I make a good living off mine.

Thank You . I have worked my way up in this business for 12yrs. Many of the wait staff in my restaurant have been there 20+. According to Silver Hilton because we are not in a trade we are not worth as much as him. I'm glad others see that kind of thinking as ignorant and rude too.

[ehunter]

We did a drop hunt where we took our own gear and we asked the guide he said 10% was normal that was about 4 years ago. Who are you going with and where?? You can ask the guide he will be straight with you.

[Thumper]

According to Silver Hilton because we are not in a trade we are not worth as much as him. I'm glad others see that kind of thinking as ignorant and rude too.

Hmmmm. Silver Hilton. Ignorant and rude. That's a new one!

[steelies_R_US]

Some of you people never cease to amaze me . I am currently waiting tables trying to pay my way through grad school. Before I started working in restaurants I was kind of of the same opinion of tipping. Yeah servers get paid for what they do by their boss so why should I have to give them any money. Having done it for 5 years now I have completly changed. It amazes me every day how unbelievably rude people can be when they set foot into a restaurant. People think that for some reason they can talk to you like you are a child and/or an idiot and heaven forbid something takes a bit longer then they expect then they pout and scream like a child. :whazzup: :whazzup: But for some reason this is they only place they do this. They feel like they have that RIGHT in a restaurant but would never dream of doing that somewhere else. For instance if you go into the local NAPA store and there is one guy trying to work with 6 people and he tells you it will be a little bit before he can help you what do you do? Do you start jumping up and down like a child and then sit on the floor and cry, NO, you act like an adult and either wait your turn or come back at a later time. If it were a restaurant this person would cry bloody murder and get furious. To have to deal with the public in this context is NOT an easy job. I have done several different things, including owning my own business in the past, and I tell you what this is by far the hardest job in the way of customer service that i have ever had. Instead of people being courteous they are often down right rude. Servers do not get paid nearly enough and that is why tips are used. As a server I would agree that if you have good sevice a tip of 15%-20% is much appreciated but if your service is poor you most assuradly should not be forced to HAVE to tip. When I go out to eat I will usually leave 20%, but that's just because I am sympathetic, but is sevice is bad I will usually leave 10%. IT is just common courtesy. Also if you can't afford to leave a tip on the $80 in food and $20 in drinks you really can't afford to be eating there. Another thing on getting stiffed is it often costs ME money. Not only do I have to pay taxes on a mandatory 8% of my sales in the state of washington, but in the large chain steakhouse that I work in I have to tip out 3% of my sales to a tip pool for other employees. So say you spend $100 on dinner and I give you good service, but you just don't think you should have to tip, It costs me MONEY. I have to declare $8 in wages to the government AND I have to give the restaurant $3. So basically I just lost my measly $7 bucks in wages I earned for the sheer pleasure of waiting on you!! Wow wasn't that fun I feel sorry for the poor waitress that has to wait on the guy who has been eating in restaurants for 35 years and has never tipped. NOw you know why she is driving a crappy car and can't afford to go to school and get a better education! To the non tippers another thing to point out to you. You are VERY much the minority. NO one often leaves nothing for a tip. Maybe I am a good server but I would say out of a week of waiting tables I might get stiffed 1 or 2 times. Also when you don't tip servers remember you and when they see you walking in the door, they know who you are, and they curse you up and down. No one likes to wait on you in the same manor that no one likes to get that rude customer at their service counter.
Sorry for the rant for those of you who do tip. It is very much apprecitated.
Jason

[Rimshot]

I'm not saying HE is ignorant and rude as a person, I'm saying that way of thinking IS. To tell the truth I was shocked at his post. I don't know the guy other than his posts on IFish but he always seemed cool to me.

Before you start throwing up more frown faces and defending him let me ask you this - How would you feel about me if I made a post about YOUR job saying you didn't deserve the pay you get for your skill? And it's wrong that the people in your field have come to expect to make a good living doing such an EASY job.

I'm betting weather you posted it or not you would feel exactly like I did. I'm guessing you would be a little offended too.

Most people I know are proud of their jobs - whatever they are. Most have worked hard to get to the position they are in and have a sense of accomplishment for doing so. I am no different. So when people belittle my job and make statements about it like he did it gets a little personal.

Again, I'm just saying the statements he made are ignorant and rude. No more, no less.

[matttheduck]

you've been working in the same industry for 12 years and are making minimum wage? that is a little hard to believe and i'm sorry to hear it if it's true.

personally, i tip at least 15 percent and it's sometimes more than that. i go to very few restaurants, mostly in my neighborhood and generally know the owners/staff from years of visits.

[Rimshot]

All waitstaff make minimum wage. There are probably a few exceptions, and bartenders generally make more, but not much. That's why tips are important to us and we work hard for them. My actual hourly income is on par with someone who has been in a good industry for 12 years however.

[Striper Club]

I am simply amazed that folks would go out of their way to try and rationalize not adding a tip. Tip for pete's sake. Tip because you are an American and that is what we do here. Tip because getting paid low wages for a very hard job really sucks.

Tip because you are too lazy to make your own food. Tip because the folks that are treating you nice are having a crappy day yet still go out of their way to ensure that you have a pleasant experience.

Do not try and justify not tipping because other industries are not tipped. Saying you are just being fair is an excuse for being too cheap to tip--even at an acceptable level.

Tip, learn to cook, or move to Europe. That is all.