Arrow opinions please

SLEDDER · 08-25-2003, 06:16 PM

Carbon, or Aluminum, Bow Poundage, grain of arrow/broadhead. I am curious as to what works the best/ deeper penetration on the animal ect. Thanks for the input!! Good luck this season

Gobbaworms · 08-25-2003, 07:07 PM

I really think you need to match the arrow to the bow...in other words there's no right answer to your question.
I shoot a Martin Fury with Fury #4 cams at 65lbs. I shoot Aluminum arrows with 125gr head. Total arrow wt is about 550gr and flys at 250 fps last I checked. LOTS of KE. I tried carbons and they don't fly as well.
My partner shoots cabons much better than aluminum. His bow is a little slower.
Carbons are generally a better choice because they are more durable and lighter therefore faster. But lighter means less KE. Speed makes some KE but as much as weight, IMHO. Confused yet?
Bottom line--a properly outfitted bow at 40lbs will pass through a deer. Accuracy will insure a pass through shot, so shoot what flies the best.

Bait O' Eggs · 08-25-2003, 07:24 PM

Scott - in my opinion the carbons are far superior. They are either straight or broke. And they dont break so easy. They are a little light, but they fly a lot faster. I like lots of kinetic energy, but with todays bows there is more than enough KE with any decent bow and shot placement for a kill.

I think far more animals are missed or lost due to misjudging distance than lack of KE. With a faster arrow you have a larger window of error when you guess the distance for that shot.

I used Beman Hunters for a few years and didnt like the outserts on the knocks and broadheads for the model of arrow I was shooting. I am using some carbon express 300's this years with inserts rather than outserts and like them a lot better. My hunting partner went from aluminum to Beman ICS's this years. He use to shoot fairly large diameter aluminums and his arrows would go into the target a few inches and my carbons would go clear thru. The smaller diameter does penetrate far superior.

Lots of good carbon arrows on the market now days.

Bait Bucket · 08-25-2003, 07:50 PM

Animals hit by an arrow die from hemorrhaging and not from kinetic energy. Shoot what best matches your bow and what you can afford and keep the broadheads sharp.

Hoosier Daddy · 08-25-2003, 07:55 PM

I agree with the rest. KE don't mean squat if you miss or if the arrow is porpoising or wiggling when it hits home. Get them to fly right and stick with what works.

SLEDDER · 08-25-2003, 07:59 PM

lOOK WHAT THE INDIANS USED. Thanks for your input guys. I have been archery hunting for quit some time. I pass up shots all the time afraid to wound an animal. When I shoot it is close to perfect shot window, closer than needed. Thanks for the confirmation of carbon arrow use Roy. I was wondering if carbons were actually too light for heavier animals(not enough KE)I have heard arguments on both sides of the aluminum vs. carbon debate. I like my carbons, I think I will stick with them.

Mello-Yello · 08-25-2003, 09:28 PM

I guess it's time to hang up the tuna rods and twist on the broadheads.

Carbon vs. Aluminum. Wow, have I heard this one beat into the ground over the years.

As mentioned above, both will work with equal results. Shot placement and razor-sharp blades is what puts the meat in the freezer.

My first elk, some 25 years ago, a big ol' herd cow. Shooting a 55lb. Pearson recurve w/cedar shafts and Bear razorheads. A 35 yard shot, passed clean through her, breaking a rib on the way out. Not much speed and not a whole lot of kinetic energy. But the shot placement was good and the blades were honed.
That old bow had many other pass-throughs over the years on deer.

Since then I've dabbled into about every setup a guy can shoot. Martin Fury Slinging carbon w/75gr. Wasps at 315fps...deadly. An old Pearson Renegade w/round wheels and 2314's won me a P&Y bull. High Country Machined Supreme w/2317 aluminum crushed it's way through a 300# Black Bear. 85# Martin Lynx (the old 1985 w/energy cams) blew through a P&Y Blacktail at 30 yds and buried deep into a clay bank 20 yards behind it.

All this, and I still keep thinking about that old herd cow.

Know your optimum shooting distance. If the critter's too far out, get sneaky. If you get busted, go find another one.

Going home with nothing is better than going home minus one arrow and a faint blood trail.

M-Y

Gobbaworms · 08-25-2003, 09:46 PM

I agree with everyone and will take a flatter trejectory over KE almost any day.
I mentioned KE due to the down range physics involved. A lighter arrow will decelerate faster than a heavier arrow so theoretically an aluminum arrow could be traveling faster at 40 yard than carbon out of the same bow. That will of course effect KE and therefore penetration. On deer, maybe not a concern, but its generally accepted that you need 50lbs of KE to pass through an elk. Cutting and bleeding does not occur without penetration which comes from KE.
I've seen a 27" of a 28" carbon sticking out of a deer which lived to see another day. I've also seen an aluminum pulverize a shoulder with the deer only going another 30 yards.
Accuracy is paramount, but stuff happens...whether its torking you bow because the adrenaline is pumping, hitting your sleeve, or the deer jumps the string or takes a step...now what?
I'm really not trying to be controversial, I'm just saying I don't think carbons are not the right arrow 100% of the time. It really depends on the bow. For me, carbons go about 270 fps which is pushing the edge for broadhead tunability. It sounds like BOE knows you and your gear and carbons are flying well for you, so that's the arrow for you.

BassMan · 08-26-2003, 12:50 AM

Since I just started shooting a bow early this spring(not hunting this year cuz Im not 100% confident in my ability) I dont have too much input but here ya go. I was shooting easton 2216 from my 60lb bow and not getting great groups, ok but not what I would call great. I just picked up 3 Carbon Tech whitetail's 40/65's from kutch archery today and man what a diffrence they make, much flatter and they hit like a ton of bricks. The only problem I had was the arrow looked like a corkscrew coming out of my bow so after 20 so min of paper tuning and adjusting the cam timing BANG!! all 3 in the black about an 2 inches or less apart. So I go home and starting shooting again @ 20 yards and the arrow is still corkscrewing but its realy tight and my arrows are grouping very well. What causes that????? Rest...Nock low/high.....helical vanes....or is this some what normal???? Any feedback would be great!!!!

Thanks Ifish archers.

RvW · 08-26-2003, 12:56 AM

Beman carbonmetal matrix ...the best of both worlds. NAP thunderhaed pro 100gr (deer) Or wasp hammer sst 125gr (elk) flung with an Onieda ESCLF 50/70.

Practice with exactly what you hunt with. Forget about kinetic energy, shot placement and perfectly honed blades after Ive spent the summer with tuning and tragectory is key to kills. Keep it simple. Natve americans relied on wood and stone to kill the food that kept them alive, just be comfortable with what you shoot.

$.02 from a lifelong bowhunter.

Hey bassman, I was cruising around Kutch archery and Flying M today, almost stopped, never been insde...good place to shop?

[ 08-26-2003, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Row Vs. Wade ]

BassMan · 08-26-2003, 03:20 AM

Row, Kutch archery is great!!! My neighbor introduced me to Kenny early this summer and what a guy, very helpful and the prices are great. It is also a very kid friendly place if you have young ones that want to go. You can shoot indoors @ 20 yards , outdoors out to 80 yards (i think) and he has 2 3-D course's(sp?) and more used bows than you can shake a stick at. If you ever want to meet up there and shoot let me know.

John

Critr Gitr · 08-26-2003, 01:47 PM

I'm with Mello-Yello ....

After close to 30 years in the stick and string game - I've tried it all and have found that the best arrow is a sharp accurate one :smile: . I've gone back to the curve over these last 15 years and have taken some dandies. Seems fast bows can sometimes be like fast cars, a lot of tinkering. I figure with all the speed out there - all I'd do is miss them faster. I prefer Magnus 2 blades sharp enough to shave with. Cedar is fun to shoot but I've found that Aluminum provides me with consistent straightness and there is enough KE to do the job up to 40 yds (62# 205fps). Haven't tried the carbon route because of my investment in Mr Easton and I always thought if it ain't broke don't fix it. I understand all that speed stuff with the lighter carbon shafts -
I just still like to have a bit of a hammer behind that broadhead.
--------------------------
"I'm older ... but I'm slower."

Jignfloat · 09-01-2003, 12:01 PM

Bassman, You can try marking a vertical line from center of your target up,.....move up to 15 yards and hold on center of target. If all your shots hit the vertical line, your left right should be fine. Move back to 40 yards and see if left right is still fine. Corkscrewing comes from left/right problem, or over/underspine shafts. If under spined, lower tip weight, over spined...heavier tip. If your shafts appear to be corkscrewing....beware of the broadheads.
2216 is over spined for 60lb bow. I hunt with 2213's with 85 grain heads for deer. I shoot carbons for competition, play with one bow, hunt with another. We all owe it to the game we hunt and ourselves to shoot the straightest shafts we can afford, spin test our shafts with broadheads...only perfect spinners make it into the quiver. I shoot xx78 super slam selects 28 1/2 inches,30in draw, 60lbs, 85 grn thundersheads and practice with broadheads out to 50 yards. I personally get better groups with the ultra straight aluminums, but opt for carbons...CX selects...for play. I do shoot my aluminums for 3-d during hunting season, and again after. My scores do not suffer. But the arrows do. I shoot best groups around 260fps....my carbons at 60lbs fly over 280. SOund practice ,being familiar with your bow, makes up for any trajectory gain you may obtain with carbons out to about 40 yards. If you know you have a high likely hood of shooting over 40 or 50 yards....I too, would use carbon. JMHO Russ

BassMan · 09-02-2003, 02:19 AM

Jignfloat, I just switched to carbons a couple of weeks ago (then I noticed my arrows corkscrewing). They are Carbon Tech whitetail 40/65 and I am shooting 60lbs with 100grain tips.(not sure the FPS). I kept hitting way left and the corkscrew was big, so I adjusted my rest away from the riser and I am not shooting left anymore. I still have the corkscrew but its real tight, but still there. Is that 40/56 underspined for my 60lb bow?? I think I will try some 85 grain points and see how it goes since that is the cheapst thing to replace.

Thanks for the tips, if you want to shoot some time and help out a newbie let me know.

jb

Jignfloat · 09-02-2003, 03:57 PM

I know with some carbons, you actually have to go to the heavier spine (one size up) to get good flight. Especially with broadheads. As a starting point for your left/right rest adjustment, 13/16ths is a figure that works with many bows. You shouldnt be far off this measurment. Also shaft length cannot be over looked. If your shafts are on the long side, indeed they may be a bit soft. Try the 85 grain field points and see if you get results. Make sure you shoot with a relaxed hand and dont grab the bow as you shoot as this can also (torque) give the appearance of corkscrew. Good luck, Russ

BassMan · 09-03-2003, 12:11 AM

Russ, thanks a bunch for the tips, I tried to adjust my left/right a bit this evening but it was starting to get a bit dark and my shoulder was already tired from throwing about 100 baseballs to my son. I will try some more tomorrow.

thanks again

John

BassMan · 09-03-2003, 11:28 PM

Hey Russ, I shot /adjusted my rest some more this afternoon and NO MORE CORKSCREW, at 20 yards anyway!!!!!! My rest was adjusted to far away from the riser, so after 10 or so min's of adjustment i have perfect arrow flight and tight groups. Now I just need to get my 30-50 yard pins sighted in.

Thanks again Russ.

John

greenbuttskunk · 09-03-2003, 11:44 PM

I shoot the cabela's camo carbon, and love them.. In my opinion carbon are superior. More durable, better power and velocity. Make sure to match the weight of the arrow/broadhead to the bows draw weight.
GBS

BUGLEMAN · 09-05-2003, 12:55 PM

Another consideration of arrow penatration is shaft whip. Aluminum and wood arrows will wobble back and forth as they enter the object thus expending energy that otherwise should be driving the point. It is clear in a slow motion film. Longitudinal carbon arrows don't whip. I shoot Beeman Hunters at about 300 fps with a 70 lb Martin Jaguar fusion. They fly straight as a string with field points or broadheads.

I do wish to upgrade to a better knocking system but do like the lighter outsert style points. It really helps those light arrows overcome a little torqueing etc. I am looking for another longitudinal carbon arrow. I have never shot next to another person and had my arrows out penetrated in the bales. Cheap Beeman hunters do the trick just fine for me.

[ 09-05-2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: BUGLEMAN ]

Fishalot · 09-08-2003, 02:11 PM

The older carbon shafts were a pain to add broad heads to, the new carbon or carbon aluminum are set up to make this alot easyer. I have seen the footage of the carbon arrow shot at slow motion and the lack of twesting and bending on impacted. I know that if you are shooting the right broad head arrow combo a aluminum arrow will not do all the bending that is shown in the footage. I don't remember what the back drop was made of that the arrows were shot into. I do know that a hard target and the flesh of a animal are two different things. I like both carbon and aluminum arrows, the carbon are a little to much money for me. I also have not bought a completed arrow for years, I build my own and building the aluminum are a lot easyer then the carbon. I am just not impressed with the arrows that are sold at most of the shops. The arrows that are sold through Cabela's seem to be built better then most. Happy hunting to all :smile:

Fishalot

crabbait · 09-08-2003, 07:44 PM

I build my own arrows as well and find the Carbon Express or Gold Tips to be as simple to assemble as aluminum. You do have to rough the inside of the shaft in order to ensure a good bond, but other than that the process is identical.

As for cost, I find the carbons cheaper overall due to their extreme toughness. Impacts that would turn an aluminum arrow into a horseshoe shape do nothing to carbon arrows (and, in my opinion, there is no such thing as a "straightened" aluminum arrow).

Unless you lose arrows alot, carbons are cheaper in the long run.