good bullet for a 308 win?

[KingFisher85]

What would be a good 165gr ect bullet for a 308 win?
I noticed theirs so many different kinds out there but what is the best or a good one for deer and elk hunting?

[blacktail]

If you are going to be hunting the westside for both Deer and Elk, I would use a 180 grain bullet - Hornady makes a great bullet.

If you may be taking longer shots, I would use a 165 grain bullet with controlled expansion like a Partition.

Mike

[SLEDDER]

308 brings up many memories all military related. Good all around caliber!!

[ 08-15-2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: SLEDDER ]

[Flatfish]

Unless elk are the main menu for the gun, shoot a 165 Nosler Partition. If elk are the guns reason for being( I have a .338) then a 165 barnes x or a Winchester fail Safe may be better choices. But even, then the partition is a fine elk round. And it has a much lower velocity threshold than the other 2 bullets. Which is nice if you do have to poke a deers lungs at 350 yards. Normally I would not consider that point, but the .308 is not a real high speed thing to start with. Gotta draw the line somewhere I suppose.

Shoot them in the lungs. They will get sleepy real quick.

Mark and the dog.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Sledder is correct 308 is very deadly...Military for years , and i think they still do, used it in a "sniper" outfit. when my father n law passed away he had a Mosburg 308 he use to hunt with. So one year I put my 243 and 7mm mag in the closet. and used his rifle, just for memories sake. I went down to Ensted and Duglas Gun shop in canemah, just outside of Oregon City and paid $40.00 to have them glassbed the barrel, it didnt shoot that great at the time, then I went and got some Nosler 150 gr. balistic tip (which do have a boattail on them). The handloads that I read in books were light because there were many 308,s out there that were automatics and pumps that wouldnt take hotter loads. so I found in a book by a guy named Bob Hegal, who at the time was one of the most experienced gun buffs of our time. I made some loads using Imr 3031 and loaded it almost to the max. took it out and sighted it in and did it shoot excellent. Very, very accurate. I killed a nice 3 pt blacktail with it that year. And I might say at 100 yrds it shoots as good or better that my 243 or 270, my 7mm mag is a little better. I would use 150 gr for deer and 165 for elk. or just stay with 150 for both. If you have a accurate rifle and can place your shot well they die just as dead.

[BonkBonkBonk]

the military uses 7.62 nato, which is slighty diffrent than commercial .308..but not much

[KingFisher85]

I'll be using it for both Deer and Elk. Like to stick with just one gun. Word has it I'll be Deer hunting on the East side of the state this year and elk hunting on the West over by my place.
Yea I have a 338mag and 300 win mag but I just don't like them. Love the caliber's but the guns don't fit me like my 308 does. Also its all I've ever used other then my shotgun for hunting big game.
I had some 165gr hot handloads loaded up for it and they shot killer out of the gun. I took my elk down with it at about 300 yards with ease. Only one problem....out of them handloads. So I was thinking if I could buy a few different kinds of bullets that people recommended and have this guy load them up for me and then find out witch ones shoot the best.
I would like to just stick with one load, one bullet, and one gun. Guess what I'm looking for is a bullet that over all shoots better, puts game down quick and easy, and if I have to still be able to reach out there and touch them.
Trying to say it the best I can...but I don't know.

I tried 180gr bullets out of it...worthless, 175grs are ok, not much better then the 180s but the two winners that shoot the best are the 150s and 165s.
I don't know. Maybe I could do 150s for deer, and then after deer season put the 165s on paper and dial them in?

Flatfish- you think a lower velocity would be better?

[ICHTHYDEMON]

Buy a box of 165gr. Nosler Partitions,have your friend load some up,and go kill your deer and elk.

[KingFisher85]

I'll get some of them.
Was thinking I could get 3 different kinds of bullets to try out.
I can get them at Fishermans and Joes right?

[ICHTHYDEMON]

The reason I picked Partitions,is because they shoot well out of all my rifles. I have shot them in my 30-30,.270, and .338. Before I got rid of my 30-06 and 7mm,I used Partitions in them also. Right now I use 140gr Ballistic tips in my .270,and 210gr Partitions in my .338.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

I shoot nosler balistic tip 165's and hornady 165 gr btsp in my 06. Between me and may dad we have killed 2 moose, several deer, 5 elk and lots of caribou with the the hornadys mostly, and a handfull with the noslers. you can't go wrong with hornady's. IMHO, the 165 is the best bullet size for 30 cal (mags not included) speed of a 150, hit of a 180. No need to complicate things, 1 round will do it all. Just work on bullet placement.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Kingfisher85...I get all my bullets at Northwest Armory, I use a 95 gr nosler partition in my 243 and you cant find it hardly anywere. this year im going to try a Barns X 80 gr. they usually have any thing you want. I have been out to Goe,s before and sometimes they dont know their butt from a hole in the ground. fishermans marine might have a good selection. I havent been out to the new place on 82nd yet to see what they have. Give the Nosler Balistic 150 gr a try. The partitions, you pay for 50 of them as much as you would pay for 100 of the balistic tip. My personal opinion I wouldnt use a Nosler Partition unless you have a fast shooting magnumn, then you would use them for big game for penatration so the bullit would not come apart upon contact. Speer makes a good boattail bullit for the 308 also. your looking to get as much speed out of that "little short action" as you can. Remember speed and accuracy kills a lot better that shooting heavy lead. that is why I would use The 150 GR bullit in Nosler (balistic tip) because it is very accurate bullit, and go with the 150 gr Nosler partition, if you want to for elk. your giving up a little in accuracy but you are making up for it in penatration. speed is about the same. 165 gr , in my opinion is getting on the heavy side for a 308. you are loosing speed big time out past 200 yrds, therefor your accuracy drops off. 165gr in a 30-06 or a 7mm mag I think would be ideal Because their is more room in the cartrage for powder to push it out alot faster. This is just my 1 peso,s worth.

[Flatfish]

If you plan on hunting elk on the west side, I would advise you shoot the X or fail safe. They are much more likely to leave a blood trail( exit wound is critical for blood trail). On the West side, a blood trail is the best way to find the critter you are tracking.

I know it is a pain to bounce between 2 loads( you do not have to, but if you have the time and like to play with handloads anyway. Might as well) but under the circumstances, I feel it is the best way.Better safe than sorry.

Speaking of better safe than sorry-Stay away from the boattails for hunting. They are a problem waiting to happen. You do not fish with dull hooks do you? The bullet is what does the job. Everything else does not matter. Any arguements about "Energy dump" or "Kinetic shock" or any other such crap is just that- Crap. The partition and X bullets will penetrate deeper than most other designs. they leave a fair wound channel for the bulk of their length. Plenty enough to kill any animal. Still want to argue? Lets say a partition leaves a golf ball sized wound channel. Name 1 animal that can live with a golf ball sized hole in it's lungs or heart. It aint how fast you drop them occasionally, it is how dead you make them every time. Period.

Now I am sure there are folks who have dumped a while herd of elk with boattails. But i dare the man ( woman) to show me a critter who can live thru an x bullet thru it's vitals. Will a Ballistic tip kill an elk a couple seconds faster? Maybe. Is it worth a wounded animal that the tougher bullet would have killed outright? Nope.

Peace to all. Shoot 'em where it counts.

Not trying to start a fight here. jest hedgeing my bets.

Mark and the moly coated dog.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Flatfish...I agree with you if you are killing Browines up in Alaska or Grizzlies, maby even Capebuffalo. i would rather put a big hole in something before it decides to eat me. But deer are not hard to kill i know people that kill them every year with one shot from their 222,s loaded with boattail hollow points. If you are a excellent hunter who knows how to place a shot, accuracy and speed will kill better than a hole the size of a silverdollar in the hindquarter of a elk or a deer for that fact. Deer are a light boned animal they dont have heavy mussle, bone and tendons like elk or moose. Elk can take a lot of "SMACK" to put them down. and yes I would use Nosler partition excluslivly. I guess if you can hit the heart and lung area of a mule deer with a 222 with a 40 gr boattail hollow point out at 250 yds or so and he drops like a ton of bricks. why would i want to spend more money with more powder tearing a bigger hole waisting more meat, by getting the same affect?....Oh by the way im not tryiny to start a fight also....which is better a Chevy or a Ford :grin:

[KingFisher85]

So what it sounds like is the
165 Nosler Partition for Deer and elk
Nosler Balistic 150 for deer

X or fail safe...who makes them?

Thinking of making a trip to town and buying a reloader and dies for the 308.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Manufactured by "Barnes"...one of the best

[KingFisher85]

Thanks

Witch one out of the two would be better?

I have to many questions :grin:

[SeanD]

I would choose a 165 or 180gr partition. If you choose the Barnes bullet, id absolutly pick the 130 gr XLC (which is a boattail). The barnes will lose nothing in penatration going with the 130 grain, and would increase your velocity which, with the barnes, is a good thing. The folks at barnes have always said the light for caliber X bullets perform just as well, but since it defies conventional bullet wisdom, lots of people dont believe it.

I would choose the partition over the barnes X, because the partition will likely open up better at the lower velocity of the 308 win. The 165 grain partition out of your 308 will penetrate deeper than the same bullet shot out of a 300 mag, so i wouldnt worry about it, penatration will be more than adequate. And the partition will likely provide a larger wound channel, as well as an exit wound if you shoot a bull broadside through the lungs. The great thing about the partition is the design allows it to expand rapidly at lower velocities than other premium bullets, yet the same bullet hold together (at least the base remains intact), and it drives deep regardless of the velocity. Basicly a wider than normal effective velocity range.

I use the partitions in all of my rifles, and i use the 150's in my 30-06, and it is my primary deer and backup elk rifle. Id rather use the 150 grain partition than a 180 grain corelokt or simalar standard bullet.

[ 08-16-2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: SeanD ]

[Flatfish]

KF- Midway should have what you are looking for. barnes makes the X bullet. Winchester sells the Fail safe( Nosler actually makes this bullet.)


Limit Lander,

the talk of the X and fail safe was about elk. I am sure you can kill deer with a .222. But I was talking about elk.

I have a triple deuce. Fun gun to shoot. It is not an adequate elk killer. The .270 is a good minimum. The 30-06 is better. My .338 is noticeably more effective than a .30 cal.

Have you ever shot a deer in the shoulder with one of your hollow points? If it is capable of shredding lungs, I wonder how much meat it would cost you if you were to shoot just a few inches off. But since you claim to be a capable shot, I am sure you are never a few inches off when in the hunting fields.

What happens when a 30" buck is quartering away, and you do not get your perfect broadside shot? I guess you have to wait for a perfect broadside shot. Hope Mr. 30" is nice enough to turn for you. He never has been that nice to me.

I am impatient, so I will wait til I can see the last rib and poke one between it's front legs. The .222/40Gr HP is simply not capable of this.

On the West side when elk hunting, shots are usually at bad angles. A 150 grain Ballistic Tip is a bad story around the fire waiting to happen. A 165 X or fail Safe does what a 200 Nosler Partition used to do for me. They penetrate. At bad angles, penetration is a good thing. Boat tail bullets are of no use in the field. Especially so when the elk may be feet, not yards, from where you are standing. With the high impact velocity associated with 50 and under yard shots, a stout bullet counts. Ballistic coeffecient matters not.

As far as speed and accuracy being associated, the only time speed and accuracy matters in a rifle is after the bullet passes thru the sound barrier( bullets flights line is disrupted by the shock of the soundwaves hitting it). But at this speed the not many bullets will expand at all. So the point is moot. In my rifles at around 300-350 yards a heavy bullet actually flies past a lighter less efficient slug. And it hits harder all the way.

As far as the cost of powder or bullet being considered into the total cost of a hunt? I will cover the increased cost of powder by picking up a few cans on the side of the road. Lets say you shoot real expensive bullets at a deer. 2 dollars each. Now lets say you have to pass up a 30" buck with your .222/40gr hp cause it would not penetrate from behind the last rib to the vitals and the animal would not turn broadside. I bet the 2 dollar bullet is cheap after you have to pass up on the buck of a lifetime cause the gun was not capable.

Now lets say that an elk weighs 4 times as much as an average deer( west side elk are pretty heavy critters. On the east side 3-3.5 times is about right). Is it worth a few cents extra in powder and 2 bucks in a bullet now?

Now if you shoot a small rifle because heavier recoil makes you shut your eyes and yank the trigger. That I would understand. I would even commend you for being sensible enough to admit to knowing what your recoil threshold is. To be honest the .338 is starting to gather dust( unless I have an elk tag) for the simple reason that I do not shoot as much as I used to and my trigger finger does not like to pull after more than 3 rounds. But if I buy a smaller rifle for deer and such, it will be because I can shoot it better, not because of powder costs. I will still shoot expensive bullets.

I ask again- Name an animal that can survive a golf ball sized hole in it's vitals.

Peace.

Mark and the dog.

P.S. Have you tried the 50gr barnes X in your .222 yet? I have a couple reports. But not enough to base an opinion on yet.

[ 08-16-2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]

[LIMIT LANDER]

Flatfish...your a ok guy...and your opinion is what many men agree with. The late Elmer keith who hunted every thing from ground squrirels, Deer to African Capebuffalo using only one gun in about 3 different custom jobs, and that was a 375 H&H he had the same concept as you do " blow a hole in them so big they die real quick ". But many others liked to use other guns and other ways like hunting with accuracy balanced with the right gun for the job. You see flatfish many use the same concept as the bowhunters do they love to hunt getting their selves in a good killing angle or they dont take the shot. And I didnt say I hunted with a 222 I just said I know a guy that does. He hunts in the Sheephead Mt. area in southeastern Oregon he has numerous 27-31 in. mule deer he has killed. He love,s to stalk and glass he has eyes like a Eagle. But he dosent take a shot if he dosent have a good kill area. now has he passed up big bucks by not being able to take a good kill shot?, yes numerous times. but this is the way he like to hunt he uses a custom built 222 with a heavy barrel 10x40 scope 40 gr searra boattail hollow point. Now would I hunt that, way Heck no?. But i know many that do , maby not using a 222 but a somewhat larger calibur but they love to stalk move in for the right opportunity and take the kill shot. He uses 2 different rifles all the time a 222 and a 22-250. he has taken 6 big bucks with each gun. His average shot is approx 250 yards or better. Now I use a 243 for blacktail. a 270 Mule deer, 7mm mag for Elk, and my 340 Weatherby when I go to Alaska or Northern Canada. 243 I use 90 gr boatail or Barns X, 270 130gr Boattail, 7mm mag 165gr Nosler Balistic tip, 340 Weatherby 210 gr Nosler partition. Maybe we can get together and go shooten some time. I also know that Boattail bullits out sell non-boatail 2-1. But i think its what part of the country you live in also. For example people that live in southern Oregon or like to hunt mainly on the cost, dont need a boattail bullit nether do the Southern boys that hunt the thick brush for whitetail in the south. And in Colorado, New mexico, Arizona, they sell boattail almost exclusively because of the more people that Analope hunt and Mule Deer hunt. than Elk hunt. Same can be said for Montanna and Wyoming. where ever there is open flat country you will see more people buy boatail bullits.

[Flatfish]

LL,

I mis read that you shot a .222. My bad :blush: . I still stand by the arguement that hunting deer with a deuce is akin to shooting geese with a .410- Experts only please.

My wife shoots boattails...Barnes X boattails.
But for all practical purposes, they offer no real life advantage over a flat base slug. Show me a rifleman who can prove it in a field position, and I will show you an Olympic class shooter. I shoot sierrias in my 338 for practice loads( cheap is good for paper). But on big critters, I spend the money. I have shot the Sierrias and X's in wind from a bench at long range( 400 yards). The boat tails were 3-4" less drift. I have met a lot of shooters in my life. i used to be somewhat of a rifleman( not anymore), I could never hold 3" at 400 yards with a hunting rifle.

An interesting side note about the x( and to a lesser extent the fail safe) Since they are made of copper, they are long for their weight, This makes for a decpetively high B.C. My 250Xs should shoot much wider in a wind than they do. But the paper tells the truth. In a 30 cal, the 165 X is about al long as a 180 lead core. The 165 XBT is longer than the 180 bal tips on my bench. Longer( to an extent) equals higher BC_ more streamlined than you would think at first glance.

I understand the stalk and make sure your shot is perfect thing. I enjoy it much more than my posts may lead you to believe. But 99% of the hunters in the world are not willing to wait. Even on a fork or a spike. They want to shoot and shoot now! I try to give advice based on this assumption.

By the sounds of things, you know how to shoot. By the sounds of things, you shoot for the lungs. As you know, many folks do not wait. They shoot for the onside shoulder ( or the offside if critter is quartering away). Ballistic tips are a tad rough on elk shoulders. An x or fail safe actually blood shoots less meat than conventional lead core bullets in this instance( the partition is probably harder on shoulders than any other bullet. Real soft noses.).Ballistic tips will not always make it past an elk shoulder. Especially so if range is close and the bullet is light for caliber.

As far as caliber choice, I am swaying from the big gun to more middle of the road stuff. Your choices are close to mine. I am doing this simply because I can hold a .270 a heck of a lot softer( better shots on my part) than I can a middle magnum.

You mention Elmer. Our conversation here is nothing more than an extension to what he and Jack had for so long. Funny thing is, they were both right. Jack shot Partitions well from his "coyote rifle". Elmer shot crappy lead core bullets. That is why he liked big guns. The Barnes and fail safe slugs have made the little guns bigger on heavy game. You must agree with than given your choice of an X in the .243? any other bullet and I would cringe. But the x makes it happen.

I wonder what Elmer would shoot today? He may have stayed with his big bores. But I would bet he would have 7mm or even .270 for deer. Well maybe not a .270, but an '06 at least .

Sorry for jumping on ya earlier. I have seen enough things go wrong with boattails to have a strong dislike for them on the west side( I had to type that cause I was not sure if you understood my opinion :tongue: JK).

You have done a couple things that are commendable.

1- You sound patient. This is a great thing.

2- Sounds like you shoot some longish range stuff. Your rifles all have a very similar trajectory. You just move up and down the power scale depending on the critter being shot. Smart man.

3- You must shoot well and be very careful with your shots. If you had not, you may not feel about boat tails the way you do.

Oh yeah, why does my wife shoot BTs in her '06? Cause it is long throated, and BTs shoot much better in it than flat bases. No matter the make.

Peace.

Mark and the dog.

[ 08-16-2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]

[LIMIT LANDER]

Flatfish..its good to hear that someone remembers Elmer Keith and Jack O,conner. Warren page was a nother top notch writer and excellent trophy hunter, and I believe he travel around hunting and killing all kinds of trophies all over the world using a 30-06 with factory ammo. You ask what would Elmer use today, heck! he was so bullheaded he would of said "if it dont put a bigger hole in um bigger than what I got, why change?". Of corse Jack would of never put down his 270, and im sure Jim Carmicle would never let go of his 280 Rem. But i will agree with you on one thing Flatfish, if i ever get a chance to go on a trophy Bull Elk hunt, I will consider very much using my 7mm Mag with the hottest loads I can come up with and use a Barns X 165gr or the Nosler partition. Iwouldnt use my 340 Weatherby i might scare the horse into the next county. Happy hunting my friend.

[KingFisher85]

I shot a 340 Weatherby yesterday....what a cannon. Bout like the 416 and the 375(think that what it was) Big ol Alaskan cannons :grin:
I'm not one to be worrying about the recoil of the gun. My 308 only weighs a little over 5 pounds. I would shoot my 300 mag but the gun don't fit me. That's why I'm looking to buy a new one soon. But for now the 308.

Everyone that has spoke has said the Nosler Partition, Nosler Ballistic and X are what I should be looking at.
What the guy loaded up for me a few years ago was 165gr Nosler Partition, think I'll pick up a box of them for sure. At 300 yards that elk never even moved when I hit it. Stopped dead cold in her tracks. The bullet punched right thu her.
Aint them ballistic rounds have the plastic like tip on them? If so I would think them would open up quicker. Making them a better deer round then elk?

[ 08-16-2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: KingFisher85 ]

[LIMIT LANDER]

KF85..Thats correct for Elk I would go with the penatration the Balistic tips open up quicker...now I should tell you that Boattail bullits are used mainly where long shots are required, why? because a boattail is designed to keep the foot pouds, that knocks a annimal off its feet at a long distance. If you do go with the Nosler partition and decide to use 165 gr choose the 165 gr. spitzer partition and hand load it where your muzzel velocity is around 2700 fps. Here is another tip that will help you in accuracy. Take a piece of paper see if you can slide it down between your barrel and stock, if you cant or it hangs up. take your action and barrel apart from your stock and sand you groove where your barrel fits untill you can slide a piece of paper down between them and it dont hang up "SAND IT ALL THE WAY DOWN WHERE YOUR RECIEVER STARTS". Then you can use a little varnish or what not to cover up the bare wood in your grooove. I did this to my fathers n law 308 I got when he died, and it now shoots great. I was told by a target shooter a long time ago that when a rifle is fired the barrel acts like a tunning fork, it vibrates, so if there is a bad spot in the wood that your barrel rest on, the barrel will vibrate against it and will throw you shot off, expecially after you fire a few shots and your barrel heats up. You do this tip and by sanding it takes all the bad spots out of the wood and you "free float the barrel so to speek. The rest of my Guns have black fiberglass stocks on them. so there is no wood to worry about.

[KingFisher85]

My stock is a black fiberglass stock.

[blacktail]

Mark,

Didn't you draw Paulina too? If so, where abouts do you camp / hunt?

Mike

[Flatfish]

East of L.A. Pine.

[SLEDDER]

Bonk, The military does use the 7.62, as the 223 and the 308. The 308 is mostly with the sniper teams due to knock down power, down range trajectory ect. 7.62 does not have the range capabilities.

[Scaup]

Other than Limit Lander I didn't see too many comments from anyone who uses a 308. He is pretty much dead on in his assessment. The 308 likes a little hotter load, but not too hot. The 308 also prefers a smaller bullet to a larger one.

I have used a Remington 788 in 308 for the last 23 years for deer. I have not used it for elk. I tried lots of combinations and here's what I use: 150 grain, Nosler Ballistic tips, with 45 grains of IMR 3031. Muzzle velocity is right around 2900 fps with a Standard Deviation of 3 fps. With this load I can put my groupings under a nickle at 100 yards. It's dropped every deer with one shot.

If you load it up all the way to the max, you'll get a muzzle velocity close to 3000, but your accuracy will go down I need to keep muzzle velocity right around 2900. Premium factory loads 150 grain Noslers,are right around 2800 fps and have a stand deviation of around 20 fps.

The accuracy also goes down on larger bullets. With the 165 grain partitions my deviation is 27 fps. With 180 grain its 43 fps. That's why I stick to the smaller bullets. Something to consider if your thinking of taking longer shots at elk.

Personnally, 300 yards is my limit. There's too much drop to a 308 after that.

Oh, and why do I carry such a cheap gun that is worth less than its scope, that all my hunting buddies make fun of when I could afford a nice new shiny one. Because I know what it's going to do, it kills deer, I can spend more time scouting than trying different loads, and my time at the range is spent practicing hunting situations versus trying to figure out how it shoots.

[Flatfish]

Scaup,

If you have a 788, here is your load development-

1- Clean Bore.
2- Pick 2 bullets that meet your criteria.
3-Shoot them til you hit a realistic velocity..
3a- Both loads should shoot MOA or better. If they do not, check the crown and bed the action.

I have loaded for 6 788s. Most accurate production sporter I have ever worked with.

3b Shoot again( skip this step is it already shoots MOA or better).
4-Pick your favorite bullet for whatever reason( shoots better, better terminal performance, etc).
5- Load a hundred of your favorite new loads.

The 788 was an ugly duckling. Terrible triggers( a good smith can fix that) though.

I had one in 308 that shot every bullet/load combonation into 3/4"-1". How fast or slow did not matter. Boat tail or flat base did not matter. Match bullets. Light or heavy. Spitzer or round nose. After a while I was actually looking for a load that did not shoot well. Never found it. Amazing rifle. Reminded me of a benchrest rifle.It shot everything well.

Mark and the slightly bigger than 7.62mm dog.

[BuKuBass]

I worked at Nosler in the early 70s at the time when John was testifying before the ODFW arguing against allowing the use of calibers smaller than .25; not due to poor bullet preformance but due to poor bullet placement by most hunters. Bob was compiling the first Nosler reloading manual and I sought his advice on a load for my .308. He asked, "Do you want power or accuracy?" I replied, "Accuracy...I know too many hunters who shoot AT big game like they shoot pool: If you can't hitém good, hitém hard."
I have a custom Rem. 600 that weighs less than seven pounds with a compact scope and a full magazine. Not that big of an accomplishment now, but 20, 25 years ago, such a rifle was rare. I use a 165 grain bullet and all but one of the deer and elk that I've taken have been knocked down with one clean shot to the neck. I don't shoot at running game, indeed almost all have been killed while they were on or near their beds.
My advise is to practice with the cheaper stuff that gives you adequete groups then buy two boxes of the good stuff. Shoot up one to convince yourself what a good shot you've become and take the remainder into the woods. Good Luck.

[Tilla]

When I asked old man Nosler some years back why they have all these new bullets when the Partition always worked just fine, he said "I dunno".

[fishwhenican]

I used to have a 308 Win. that didn't like to shoot 165gr bullets, so I shot every thing with 150gr. bullets. 150gr speer boat tails. Everyone used to tell me I couldn't shot cheap bullets, that they would explode. I killed many animals (including elk) with that load from 15 feet to 400 yards. Velocity is what makes bullets explode, at 2600 fps a boat tail bullet works just fine. At 3000 fps they explode and don't work worth a darn. One or two bullets did explode, like the one that took out 6" of backbone. Or the one that came apart after hitting 3 ribs and then breaking the hip as the buck ran toward me 15 feet away.

If the nosler partition 165gr. shoots good in your gun, use it, no need to switch back and forth. I now shoot a 270 Win.--- cheap bullets explode at 3000 fps

[KingFisher85]

I'm gonna try to get some 165gr bullets and have a guy load me up some more.

Now for a quick question:
Anyone know some place close that I could take my 270 Weatherby? The safety busted on it and last time I sent it into Weatherby to get it fixed they never fixed it. They knocked the scope off and did something to it.

[Wang]

I loaded .308 165 gr. ballistics tips for years. You might want to take in consideration what kind of gun your loading for. If you loading for a bolt action you have more powder options. I loaded for a Browning lever and had to go to a less. I think I used 4831, but dont quite remember as don't own that gun anymore. (thieves)

I loaded in 6 loads at 1/2 grain intervals and fine tuned from there. Got it dialed in sweet. Best shooting bullet Ive ever had.

Just my opinion,
Bill

[Flatfish]

Boattails are not more accurate. Benchrest bullets shot in rail guns( most accurate rifles in the world) are almost all flat bases. Boattails only help in long range.1000 yards is far enough to matter. Can you hit at 1000 yards? What is the holdover at 1000 yards with a 200 yard zero. If you miss the range estimation at 1000 yards by 60 yards, did you still hit the animal? Does this sound extreme? yep. And it is. Which is my point. so unless you plan on shooting animals 3000 feet away, maybe this conversation is moot?.

What is long range? Past a quarter mile. If you can hold a rifle well enough to hit a deer every time at 440 yards( measured,not eyeballed)you are in the top 1%. Since westside elk were on the menu, a boat tail is silly to sit here and say" Oh yeah, my bullet was going 2 fps faster than yours when it hit the animal. Even at 300 yards( longer than most men can hit at- If you test them) a boat tail is conversational to me. I dare the man to show me REAL WORLD FIELD PROOF. That does not include groups shot off a bench. You do not shoot off a bench in the field do you? and if you learn a flat base drift( and wind drift is one hell of a lot harder to learn to compensate for than trajectory) than you know what you need to know.

What good are boat tails? Guns with long throats tend to shoot them better than flat bases. And they are easier to seat when loading compared to a FB. On a varmint gun they may help too( super high velicity and low ballistic coefficient). But a varmint rifle will get shot more in a field of rockchucks in a day than an elk rifle will in a lifetime. And hits around the edge on a varmint are usually instantly fatal, then I will take the couple inches better wind drift in that circumstance. Hits on the fringe of an elk are a problem.

Show me the improvment in the field. Leave the books at home.

The lead cored boattails tend to slip the core, reducing penetration by a large margin, and offer no real world gains. The partition ans X allow the hunter to shoot at much steeper angles than a conventional slug due to their ability to penetrate deeper. Oh yeah, the lead cored bulets( partition included) blood shoot more meat than the X and Fail Safe.

I used to shoot a lot. I could hit past a quarter mile often. Today, I get much closer. When I was at my peak as a rifleman, I could not prove it with a rifle. If you are not shooting at an olympic level, you cannot prove it either.

Show me( out of a book, since that is where all of this sillyness started from) how much faster a bullet is traveling at 400 yards. Do it for a 308 winnie, since thats what we are talking about here. Show me the wind drift from the book too. If the bullet is going 100fps faster on the target, will one kill it and the other bounce off? 100fps is about as fast as a hefty slingshot will toss a bullet. Yeah, that'yl make a huge difference.

What does a 10 Mph wind look like? If the wind is quartering uphill and boiling at a rock ledge 200 yards in front of my target( on a 400 yard shot) how much less holdover do I need because the boil will push the bullet up for a bit.

If these thoughts are not going thru your head as you shoot. You cannot prove it.

Do boattails kill? Of course. But in the real world, they cost us more than they buy us.

Once again, the marketing guys had us fooled.

Save the hate mail. If you want to argue with me. Prove it with a rifle. if you can show me in the field, I will but you lunch and reloading supplies to reimburse your costs. Oh yeah, If I recognize you from my competition days, all bets are off.

Mark and the flat based dog.

[BonkBonkBonk]

Originally posted by Flatfish:
Speaking of better safe than sorry-Stay away from the boattails for hunting. They are a problem waiting to happen. You do not fish with dull hooks do you? The bullet is what does the job. Everything else does not matter. Any arguements about "Energy dump" or "Kinetic shock" or any other such crap is just that- Crap. .

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">i thought the point of boattail bullets was to be more accurate, not to do more damage :whazzup:

[James in Idaho]

KF85:

Not much to add, I'm a hugh fan of Nosler partitions. Have shot 'em for years out of .270, .30-06 and .35 Whelen. Haven't lost an animal yet (antelope, deer, elk, moose). They have shot as well as I can, and other than antelope, I've never felt undergunned. They are a lot more than you need for antelope.

Why don't you get into "rolling your own"? Bet you could get a basic set up off ebay for less than $50, a Lee handloader (not the press, the actualy hand loader) and a scale, you'd be set. Looks like you have more than one gun, so start looking for a press, I have an RCBS single station that I bought about 100 years ago on clearance for about $25 brand new, see them all the time in gun stores/shows used pretty cheap. I've loaded 1000's of rounds on mine (I used to shoot a lot of .38 and .357's), it's still going strong.

[KingFisher85]

Well, bite me in the butt side ways. I just found out that the ranch I be going to is shotgun only! Big ol huge ranch shotgun only! Well, good thing I have that rifled barrel that shoots the sabots.

So I guess now the only thing my 308 will be used for this year is elk hunting over on the West side of the state. Might as well use the 338 if I can.

I've gotten a few e-mails from people saying that this is a good topic.