Negative experience with Native American

[tailchaser]

I was nearly mobbed and labeled as a racist when I was going to school in Klamath Falls and was at a meeting where the local tribe was trying to gain access to other lands outside of thier reservation. It was a large meeting with the local hob nobs and the tribal head honcho stood up and said there wasn't enough game around anymore to sustain thier local population. I popped up and asked him how many animals are they allowed. He told me 5 deer and 2 elk a month per person!!! So I asked how many army's is he trying to feed?? I get usually one elk and maybe a deer a year and I have plenty for the entire year. And it's no wonder why there aren't any around because they use high powered rifles and spotlights. Instantly he accused me of being a racist and to ignore anything I said. I couldn't believe my ears. It had nothing to do with race, heck I'm part indian myself, it had to do with managment and not abusing the rights they have. I'll agree though there are not may deer left where they hunt. About 20 miles north of KFalls it's desolate for animals. Rarely does one get hit on the side of the road and you never see them anywhere around.

This subject has to be delt with very soon. The more money that is recieved from these casino's, the more bulletproof these supposed rights will become because they'll pay lawyers to no end to keep up the greediness that surrounds it. All of us live in the same place and it's not right for one to practice ethics and see the other guy on that side of the fence blow a deer away and say thank you. My generation doesn't owe them a dime. I cringe at hearing about a way to get a casino by luring outside issues into the subject.

I sure hope something is done soon because they're breaking the laws put in place and giving us the bird at the same time. Meanwhile they have casino's and live law free in front of our faces. It should make every person that votes,pays fees to hunt and fish, and people that live off of hunting and fishing (guides,commercials, etc...) furious on undermining the efforts of Oregonians. They'll abuse every resource we have until it's gone.

It absolutely pains me to see native americans selling wild springers by the truckload at Cascade Locks every year knowing they're killing the last of the population and not doing anything to try and replenish it. I walked by one snarling to myself only to see him huck three out of his boat back into the water because they were rotten. My wife had to restrain me from keeping him from joining the fish. Oh yeah this was the same time that the river was closed to the rest of Oregonians for the lack of the fish returning. Makes ya feel good inside eh?


tc

[ 03-05-2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: tailchaser ]

[GutshotApe]

tc - A couple of years ago a man representing himself as the head of the Klamath tribal fish & wildlife commission at Chiloquin testified to the Oregon F&W commission....asserting his tribe's (I know, they're two tribes with a long history of not getting along) rights to fish & hunt anywhere on their former reservation lands which is most of the Sprague Unit and some of the surrounding units, too. They assert the exclusive right to regulate tribal members as to methods, seasons, bag limits, etc. He asserted they have the right to use pickup trucks, high-powered rifles, and to hunt at night using spotlights......because they've been doing it for decades and it is now part of their traditions. AND, he cited an old court decision from the 1950s that supposedly supports his position. The Klamath Indians asked ODFW to close the Sprague Unit to "white" hunters saying all the game was needed by for tribal member's subsistance. ODFW declined to close the unit. Apparently the local DAs believe the Indians have the rights they claim because OSP and the local sheriffs don't seem to be able to stop the year-round slaughter.
We have bought and paid for the Winema NF (former tribal lands) twice......yet the Indians still think they own it. And, I heard a rumor from a reliable source that ex-governor Kitzhaber was sympathetic to the Klamaths and, near the end of his reign, initiated discussions intended to eventually return the Winema NF lands back to the Klamath Indians.....despite the fact that they voted to sell them to the United States govt. and did....twice. I hope that's the last we hear of the idea....but somehow, I suspect it's not.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

I really wish that they made a rule that when they got there casinos, they lost the right to **** and pillage our natural resources. Look in WA, their ancestors would roll over in their graves if they saw chums being killed for just eggs and being left to rot, and the pillaging on the columbia is no better. Most indian tribes get plenty of money from the goverment as it sits, so why then is there the need to harm endangered species for there lifestyle to continue. It seems that in alot of cases that the basic core value of respecting wildlife has changed into greed in native american societies. If you don't belive me look at what happens in puget sound every year.

The Klamaths are pounding the Wood and Williamson River spawners right now.

[GutshotApe]

And, of course, they're "harvesting" those fish using their "usual and accustomed" methods. :shocked:

[Killertraylor]

I've been thinking about this incident much more lately since the discussion arose about allowing a tribal casino in Portland in exchange for funding for a baseball stadium. I had a very negative experience in the fall of '01 while cow elk hunting in Ukiah. Let me begin by saying I don't intend this to be a "flame thread" about the tribes, but I am curious if anyone else has had similar experiences to mine. I think if the general public knew what was happening they would be outraged.

I was on the third day of my cow elk hunt (had not seen a single elk or heard one shot in 3 days - apparently they schedule these late season hunts in Ukiah when all of the elk have gone to the lowlands) when I heard 4 or 5 shots about a mile away. I got back in the truck and drove in the general direction of the shots, expecting to see some elk. Instead, I found an individual and his girlfriend with their truck backed off the road and there were 5 dead deer laying on the ground - three does and two fawns. This elk hunt was in Late November/early December as I recall and the deer were rutting hard. I could have killed several bucks with a hammer. I approached this guy, thinking he must have a doe tag or handicapped license of some sort and he promptly told me he was a member of the "Walla Walla" tribe, that he could shoot as many deer or elk as he wanted, either sex, day or night, using any method he chose. I told him I had thought that those rules only applied to the reservation and he replied that he could hunt on ANY federal land he wanted, any day of the year and shoot as many animals as he wanted.

I promptly reported the incident to the poacher hotline and to the District Attorney. Both told me that unfortunately, he was right! I have still not been able to find a copy of the "treaty" that gives them this right. I was told by a guide recently at the sportsman's show that he has had a similar experience with a tribal member in the Weneha unit. He said he had seen a tribal member with 6 elk down - two trophy bulls and four cows. He also reported the incident and was told there was nothing that could be done about it.

This bothers me for several reasons.

1. It appears that some tribal members are taking advantage of their treaty rights to harvest more animals than they could ever use themselves for food.

2. I have to pay license fees, apply for hunts in competitive lottery's, and abide by numerous laws to hunt or fish.

3. One tribal member could single handedly reak havoc on a wintering or rutting herd of deer or elk and greatly influence the hunting opportunity for everyone else who has to apply for permits to hunt.

I'd obviously love to do something about this, but I'm not sure there would be any support for such a non-politically correct movement. Perhaps it's as simple as reporting the incident to the tribal elders who might be concerned about the reputation of the tribe. Perhaps it would take a full blown attempt at a revised treaty, which would be nearly impossible to accomplish. I'd first like to know whether anyone else has experienced anything like this, and whether anyone knows of any appropriate avenues to get something accomplished that would prevent this slaughter from occuring in the future.

[Killertraylor]

Well, I had a feeling that this might just turn into a post where folks would vent their frustrations. Sounds like nobody has any suggestions yet as to what can be done about these inequalities that drive us nuts. I think at the very least I'm going to contact a "tribal authority" to vent my frustrations. I'm tempted to write a letter to the editor of the Oregonian, but probably can't get away with that politically at work.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by willametteriveroutlaw:
I really wish that they made a rule that when they got there casinos, they lost the right to **** and pillage our natural resources.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">You said it. A significant percentage of Indian gambling revenue is being used to hire lawyers and to fund lawsuits aimed at recovering their "lost rights" to natural resources.

The general public tends to buy into the idea that Indians are intrinsically much more able to relate to the environment in a holistic and sustainable manner.......and many people support giving them what they want. People who are familiar with what happens on Indian reservations and in Indian fisheries off-reservation know the truth is often quite another story :depressed: .

How about when they vote or get government assistance they are treated like everyone else?
You wouldn't believe what my niece and her husband get.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

In alaska the indians get thousands of dollars a month from the goverment. It seems to be a little different up there too. Yes alot of the native community has a drinking problem, but there is a little more respect on there part, and ADFG keeps the rules in line for everyone. Here though, we get ******. Since when is shooting deer at night w/a high powered rifle how it was done 100's of years ago. There is a defiante lack of respect, for example the newly established Cowlitz Tribe is building a casino right out side of La Center. Presumably to run the non-native american casino owners out of business. Since when are casino's a native tradition anyways. We need to get this back into the courts again endangered species act vs native americans.. The greenies out to love that one.
GSA, whats next? the native americans right to clear cut our forests, or mine our streams. I'll admit we screwed them, but thats evolution.

To quantify that statement : all people are equal, all societies aren't. i.e. romans conqueoring europe, then the turks.. Or the mongol hord. The stronger more agressive society usually wins. Its life.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by willametteriveroutlaw:
GSA, whats next? the native americans right to clear cut our forests, or mine our streams. I'll admit we screwed them, but thats evolution.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">What's next is, according to an article in today's Eugene R-G, the junior US Senator from Oregon, Gordon Smith, plans to introduce a bill soon that would give 63,000 acres of Siuslaw National Forest land & timber to the Confederated Tribes of the Coos, Lower Umpqua and Siuslaw. This land is the roughly 10% of the SNF that lies south of Hwy 126 and north of the Umpqua River. "Senator Smith has been working with the tribes for a year and is committed to introducing this legislation" said his aide Kerry Tymchuk, Smith's Oregon office mgr. (and Reedsport native :shocked: - gsa). The tribes would manage the land as they see fit but would not be allowed to build a casino on it (that is planned for a site in Florence - gsa).

In 1996 Congress gave 5,400 acres of BLM timberland to the Coquille Indian tribe. Smith's bill would give the neighboring tribal members 12 times as much land. Our land.

The thing that is most bothersome to me is that this phenomenon of assuaging liberal guilt by "giving it back" to the Indians is a 100% race-based "remedy". Some people feel compelled to right wrongs ("wrong" acording to today's perceptions of the situation in 1855) inflicted on aboriginal people 150 years ago.....and the beneficiaries of these misguided efforts, for the most part, are 5 or more generations removed and have, in large degree, assimilated into the dominant culture. Now, we are going to see all sorts of people coming forward proclaiming their Indian ancestry and wanting a piece of the free handout - based on who their ancestors were....or were thought to be.



[ 03-08-2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

In alaska the indians get thousands of dollars a month from the goverment.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Not quite true. They get most of the money from their "Native Corporations". They do get lots of money though. My niece and her husband get housing, medical for themselves and their kids, living money and hiring preference. How far do you think I'd get if I owned the ALMOST WHITE CONSTRUCTION COMPANY and put in a help wanted add like this "Help Wanted, White Preferance".

PS:

They've already clearcut their "Native Land" in SE Alaska

[ 03-08-2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Damien]

Excuss me if I sound not politically correct on this, but common sence you think would play a point in a subject like this. Why should the Indians or any other group get such special treatment. As far as I'm concerned if they are using lands outside of there "territory", then they should have to abide by the rule just like everybody else. I don't understand the special rights that are given for things that happened a "LONG" time ago. MOVE ON. It cost the tax payers and sportsmen of this fine counrty lots of dollars to help support our resourses. Then to have anybody (not one specific group)just blast away with no concern is not right. Just my 2 cents.

[riverrat]

kt.....what you have witnessed is one person doing the wrong thing, not the whole tribe engaged in slaughtering the animals...rules are rules and can only be changed by the usual political process, however if you were to contact the tribal chief, the tribal police and the bureau of indian affairs relating what you witnessed they would put a stop to this type of selfishness......most tribes have their own set of laws limiting the amount of animals, when and where they are to be taken, etc....some tribes even have yearly tags for deer and elk....also please contact our politicians....govenor, senators and local representatives and demand responses from all that you contact....i too agree that the free ride should come to a stop, but until then, let the people in power know about these types of selfish behaviors.......

[TheRogue]

Which all pales to what is currently being bandied around, that is the restorations of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of acres of the Klamath National Forest to the Klamath Tribe, along with the water rights and controls associated with that area.....along with all the problems associated with the water in the Klamath Basin.

TR

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by riverrat:
kt.....what you have witnessed is one person doing the wrong thing, not the whole tribe engaged in slaughtering the animals...rules are rules and can only be changed by the usual political process, however if you were to contact the tribal chief, the tribal police and the bureau of indian affairs relating what you witnessed they would put a stop to this type of selfishness......

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Guess again.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by TheRogue:
Which all pales to what is currently being bandied around, that is the restorations of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of acres of the Klamath National Forest to the Klamath Tribe, along with the water rights and controls associated with that area.....along with all the problems associated with the water in the Klamath Basin.

TR

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I thought it was the Winema NF? Whatever, the interesting thing is that these giveaways of public land to Indian groups are often supported by "white" business and "white" community leaders. Of course, they know that the Indians will, if past history is anything to go by, greatly increase the amount of timber coming off the land. Ever seen the Makah, Tulalip or Quinault reservatons in WA? The work will most likely be contracted out to "white" contractors, the logs will go to "white-owned" mills, the Indians sit back and collect their monthly checks, and there will be a general increase in economic activity in the area. I wonder what EarthJustUs and the other enviro groups think about giving the land back to "the Indians"?

[riverrat]

gsa.....i should have put could instead of would... stop this type of selfishness....i have seen animals on the side of the road in quebec, minnesota, montana and idaho shot and just the hind quarters taken ....native people were responsible for these actions....however in montana the tribal police is an ever presence force when it comes to crimes against tribal laws, also i have witnessed a tribe in northern idaho place monetary values on tags that are alloted to their tribal members and to have bag limits....even though this does not have any merit in land giveaways in oregon, i was just giving kt some alternatives on who or what agencies may be interested in what he has witnessed...hopefully there will be an end to the everlasting indian wars, broken treaties and the native americans dependency on uncle sam...obviously you are aware of other unjust acts that are going on in oregon...thank you for the heads up...i didn't know what congress did in 1996 or what senator smith's bill would do to our public lands....this is a tough subject and has a history of many unjust acts, hopefully some can be rectified within the next 150 years or so......

[TheRogue]

I thought it was the Winema NF? Whatever, the interesting thing is that these giveaways of public land to Indian groups are often supported by "white" business and "white" community leaders. Of course, they know that the Indians will, if past history is anything to go by, greatly increase the amount of timber coming off the land. Ever seen the Makah, Tulalip or Quinault reservatons in WA? The work will most likely be contracted out to "white" contractors, the logs will go to "white-owned" mills, the Indians sit back and collect their monthly checks, and there will be a general increase in economic activity in the area. I wonder what EarthJustUs and the other enviro groups think about giving the land back to "the Indians"?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Oops, sorry Winema...

And honestly, I've spent a lot of time on quite a few reservations. The Yakamas and Warm Springs have fantastic timber programs...most of the OP res's are cannon-fodder for the anti-loggers. Rules and regs don't count on trust land.

TR

[hen slayer]

OK OK Here's my point. while fishing in Drano a few years ago. The tribal police showed up. They asked to see my license and my registration for my boat. I told them to take a hike. Not in those exact words. they told me they have the authority to check me and every body else out there. I said get lost and bring in the county mounties or state police. They left and i never saw a single officer. My point is they are tribal police not my police!!!

[Robert]

Those most of have been some darn nice tribal cops. I emailed OSP and I think that OSP said they do have jurisdiction on the Columbia and tributaries above Bonneville. This could be different in Washington. It is important to have the rule book with you if you ever fish where they may come. I have had to prove twice to different tribal cops that he was wrong about the rules.

[WildHawg]

KT, you are a lawyer--correct? Then you oughta know people lie to cover things up.
I find it difficult, if not impossible, to believe that the State Police and the District Attorneys office told you that he was correct. Tribal members do not have the right to hunt on any federal land they want. Though the Stevens Treaties of 1855 guaranteed them the right to hunt and fish at all customary places, those rights have been rescinded (like most of the promises we made in those treaties--and they were among the few actually ratified by congress).
They are strictly regulated and confined to ceded lands, and some off reservation lands through a lottery with ODFW and tribal authorities.
heres the website which includes tribal hunting near Ukiah:

http://www.umatilla.nsn.us/depts.html#documents

click, then scroll to near the bottom of this long page to find hunting regs.
You could do us all a favor by calling BS on the Staters and DA's who think Native Americans can kill anything they want, anywhere, anytime on federal lands.
There's no excuse for slaughtering does and fawns in those numbers--but then there's no excuse for alot of the BS that goes on in this world.
Call 'em out KT.

[ 03-17-2003, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: WildHawg ]