BLACK POWDER RIFLE-WHAT TO BUY FOR OREGON?

salmonking · 02-02-2003, 08:59 PM

NEW TO THIS SPORT AND INTERESTED IN KNOWING WHAT TO BUY TO BE ABLE TO USE IT FOR DEER IN OREGON. I AM LIMITED TO ABOUT $300, AND WOULD LIKE SOME OF YOUR OPINIONS ON WHAT TO BUY AND PERHAPS WHY? EASINESS OF OPERATION? HIGHER QUALITY? PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR INPUT. OH, BY THE WAY, WHEN DOES THE BLACK POWDER SEASON RUN IN OREGON?
THANKS

KingFisher85 · 02-02-2003, 09:04 PM

No need to yell!
If I was to get another new smoke stick, it would be a Thompson Center old snap and cap smoke stick in the 50 cal

Mtn Man · 02-02-2003, 09:25 PM

Thats easy, I would go with a Lyman great plain rifle. It is without a doubt the most bang for your buck, that is for all muzzleloaders from in-lines to customs. They shoot VERY well!!

They have a 1-60" twist so you can shoot round balls and conicals. Good double set triggers and they can be had new for less than $300.

If you know you are going to be hunting mostly deer with it get it in the .50, but if you are thinking about elk step up to the .54.

I shoot one of the nicest Thompson Hawkens ever produced. My next one will be a Lyman, I was going to buy a Lyman when I got this one as a gift. My dad gave it to me when he bought a Lyman.

Lyman produces both the great plains rifle and the great plains hunter, get the rifle it is much more veratile. The hunter has a much faster twist and will not shoot round balls well.

Don't let anybody tell you that round balls won't kill. A friend of mine shot a buffalo this year, he broke a rib going in right behind the shoulder and the ball ended up just under the hide near the hindquarter. It didn't lose any weight, it was just slightly deformed. The guide said he had never seen one go down as quickly. He was very impressed.

The place to get the Lyman is at Midsouth S******* Supply .

Let me know if you have any other questions. There is a bit of a learning curve to black powder, but there is a lot of good info on the net.

You really need to watch what you buy for Oregon as they have the strictest regulations in the states. Of course that keeps the typical weekender from hunting with BP there.

MM

EDIT: I don't know why the URL wouldn't go through?? It's Midsouth S h o o t e r s Supply.

[ 02-02-2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Mtn Man ]

salmonking · 02-02-2003, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mtn Man:
Thats easy, I would go with a Lyman great plain rifle. It is without a doubt the most bang for your buck, that is for all muzzleloaders from in-lines to customs. They shoot VERY well!!

They have a 1-60" twist so you can shoot round balls and conicals. Good double set triggers and they can be had new for less than $300.

If you know you are going to be hunting mostly deer with it get it in the .50, but if you are thinking about elk step up to the .54.

I shoot one of the nicest Thompson Hawkens ever produced. My next one will be a Lyman, I was going to buy a Lyman when I got this one as a gift. My dad gave it to me when he bought a Lyman.

Lyman produces both the great plains rifle and the great plains hunter, get the rifle it is much more veratile. The hunter has a much faster twist and will not shoot round balls well.

Don't let anybody tell you that round balls won't kill. A friend of mine shot a buffalo this year, he broke a rib going in right behind the shoulder and the ball ended up just under the hide near the hindquarter. It didn't lose any weight, it was just slightly deformed. The guide said he had never seen one go down as quickly. He was very impressed.

The place to get the Lyman is at Midsouth S******* Supply .

Let me know if you have any other questions. There is a bit of a learning curve to black powder, but there is a lot of good info on the net.

You really need to watch what you buy for Oregon as they have the strictest regulations in the states. Of course that keeps the typical weekender from hunting with BP there.

MM

EDIT: I don't know why the URL wouldn't go through?? It's Midsouth S h o o t e r s Supply.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]
Hey Mtn man, thanks for the fantastic letter. This makes this such a great place to get info. Man I just posted and bam here you came with the answers. Thanks. I do have another question or two. I looked on the Midsouth website and found two 50 calibers, one a percussion and the other a flintlock. Do I want the percussion? Also, what is the distance of accuracy with these guns and is it the same for both 50 and 54 caliber?
Thanks again,
Salmonking
:smile:

Mtn Man · 02-03-2003, 12:18 AM

You want the percussion or caplock, it use caps. They are much easier for a beginner. The flintlock is an earlier type of ignition system. It uses a flint (piece of rock) to strike against the frizzen (metal shoe) and ignite the powder in the flash pan. These are what you see in the movie "The Patriot".

Accuracy will be good out to about 100 yds if you shoot a fair amount. Personally I keep my shots under 75 yds. If you are a decent shot you should be able to group pretty good.

One thing that you should be aware of is that sighting in a muzzleloader is not quite like a modern gun. You need to start at about 10 yds and then work to 25. Finally when you can hit the target at 50 yds you get to work up the load. No two muzzleloaders shoot exactly the same, the ideal powder load, the projectile, the lube and the cleaning all affect the accuracy. I'm not try to discourage you, just letting you know what your up against. I love shooting the muzzleloader, for me it is a lot more rewarding than a high power rifle.

Here are a couple of good sites:

Mama flinters has a lot of good beginner information.

Muzzleloading and More is a local supplier out of Gresham.

The Gun Works is a very well know custom maker in Springfield

and Track of the Wolf is one of the largest suppliers

That should get you started.

MM

P.S. If you mechanically inclined at all the Lyman kits are pretty easy to put together. You really don't save a lot of money as you have to buy the finishing supplies but you get the satisfaction of shooting something that you built.

Killertraylor · 02-03-2003, 10:45 AM

I second the vote for the Lyman Great Plains rifle. .50 caliber is plenty big for both deer and elk in my opinion. Note that you can't use scopes or "closed ignition" muzzleloaders in Oregon - we have the most restrictive muzzleloader rules in the nation (along with Washington) so you should read the game synopsis before purchasing a muzzleloader or bullets (note that many of the conical bullets available are not legal in Oregon). The Lyman is legal - it has exposed ignition, you just need to make sure you get the correct bullets.

Lured In · 02-03-2003, 03:37 PM

Salmonking...I will echo most of what Mtn. Man said. With the exception of the twist. 1:60 is for round balls. 1:48 is for both round and conicals, and anything faster such as 1:28 is almost exclusively for conicals and sabots.

The great plains is solid gun and think you will find that most sidelocks (hammer with No11 percussion cap) are going to shoot well. I shoot a Cabela's Hawken replica (sporsterized, no brass with recoil pad and sling swivels) which ran about $200 in either 50 or 54 cal. Any Hawken replica will have a 1:48 in twist as that was what they were noted for.

Keep in mind it can be difficult to find a legal muzzleloader in catalogues, so check out some of the places listed above. The basic regulations are open ignition (exposed to the elements), nothing smaller than .50 cal, iron or peep sights and no plastic based (sabots and similar) projectiles.

As Mtn Man said, round balls can do a serious amount of damage when fired at appropriate distances. In my .54 cal I shoot 105 grains of FFg black powder for round ball(deer), and 110 grains of FFg for 365 grain T/C maxihunter conicals. In all of my studies, the 50 cal actually has better ballastics than the 54 cal with any projectile. Ideally i would like two more 'smokepoles', a .50 cal 1:36" for conicals and a .50 cal 1:60 for roundball. Either way, my next muzzleloader will be a 50 cal.

I bought a CVA sidelock in 50 cal for a friend a few years ago that had a 1:36 twist which does pretty well with conicals, but with heavy charges, doesn't do very well with round ball.

I would recommend you focus on finding a gun in your price range that has a 1:48 twist, regardless of manufacturer. Make sure you get one without fiber optic sights or have the replaced if the gun ships with them.

As far as season's go, I usually hunt deer and elk on the westside. There are several different muzzleloader hunts for deer, the one I usually put in for is the Applegate unit. For Cascade Elk hunt, this year will be different. Previously there was one (draw) tag for the entire west slope of the cascades from Mt. Hood to California. This year they have split that into to units (north and south) and decreased the number of tags. This hunt is usually the second or third week in November so it is a snow hunt in most places.

One other tip when sighting in. As Mtn Man said, start close and work out. If you get a .50 cal, most will max out at around 105 grains depending on manufacturer. (Make sure you find out what the max charge is.) You should be able to get moving with around 80 grains of FFg and a patched round ball. The trick to blackpowder is that because each is gun is different and each charge can very by a grain or two, getting consistent groups takes practice.

For instance I started out shooting 85 grains and got on the paper out to 75 yards. (my preferred zero). Got it sighted in and then came back to see where I was at 25 yards. I was 6 inches high! :shocked: Obviously I was lobbing that round and upped the charge to 90 and started all over again with zeroing at 25 yards. I did this over and over again until I got the type of trajectory that I was looking for with a zero at 75 yards and I only have to hold a little high to hit at 100 yards.

I have yet to shoot at a deer of elk further than 75 yards. Even if I had the chance, I am not sure I would as the power may not be there. My personal opinion is that muzzleloading is only a halfstep off bowhunting. It should be close. The two deer I have taken, one was at 20 yards and the other at just over 10.

It is a lot of fun and can up your chances as the deer hunts are usually during the rut and either deer or elk are usually hair tags.

Good luck.

Denali · 02-03-2003, 11:53 PM

KT,

In Pennsylvania, where I grew up it is flintlock only. They just allowed the use of maxi-balls last year. Prior to that roundball only.

sliverpicker · 02-05-2003, 04:09 AM

Salmonking,

I have the same rifle as "Lured In", the Cabelas Sporterized Hawken in .54 cal

My brother has a Lyman .50 and a Thompson .54, and they're both great guns. I didn't want to spend that much money to start out, so I opted for the Cabelas. The workmanship is excellent, and it has a beautiful stock, but best of all it shoots very good. Both round balls and conicals are accurate enough for hunting purpose's.

Oregon is offering some really good hunts for muzzleloaders, several are extremely difficult to draw, others are 100% each year. Just depends on what your preference's are.

I see you're in Sandy also, I live out Coalman Rd east of town. If you want to look at or shoot my rifle let me know, I'd be glad to help you out.

sliverpicker

DAB · 02-06-2003, 06:39 PM

SalmonKIng
The wife and I have been shooting B/P for over 30 years and just to say that the rifles that have been recomended are what I would say are the top of the line. The wife and I both have T/C 50 cal. hawkens. We used to go all over Oregon to the B/P shoots and just loved the competive shooting . I have never killed a deer or elk with one because we always used center fire for deer and elk. But we have killed more than our share of sage rats and gray diggers with B/P. I will tell you one thing it is a blast to shoot B/P
Find a B/P club to shoot with , compitition realy sharpens your skills and nerves.
A .490 round balls backed with 120 grains of FFFG was a very accuret load in mine and 100 grains of FFFG shot supper in my wifes gun this was all dupont B/P as I bought it by the KEG. still have about a 1/2 pound of it left.
On sage rats and gray diggers we used 50 to 80 grains of FFFG depended on the range.

Good Luck and keep your powder dry.
DAB

JCJ · 02-06-2003, 11:59 PM

Howdy,have to agree with all on the rifles to start with.My vote would be for the Lyman GPR in 54 cal. I would take the 54 over the 50 because if you go for elk its better to have the knockdown power the larger caliber provides.You can always drop the load down for deer.The max load Lyman recommends in the 54 is 100 grains of FFFg.And, as was said earlier ,shot placement and knowing your killing range is more important.What you have to understand on all the ready made or kit guns is that the rifling is from 6 to 8 thousands deep .Most of them use a button rifling which only cuts .008 deep max.But the custom guns generally are using cut rifling barrels that are at least 12 to 14 thousand deep.Your accuracy will be better with cut rifling rather than button in the heavier hunting loads.When you are working up a hunting load and you reach the max load,the groups will open up drastically then you know to back off the powder for best accuracy.The Lyman from Mid South is the best buy around but I would advise starting with the percussion rather than the flint,not only because its easier in the beginning but Lyman has been having a lot of trouble with their flinters with ignition problems.Seems the touch hole is drilled different and not to reliable.If you ever get a wild hair and want to go to flint then by all means save up your money and have one custom built,they are well worth the wait and the money spent.What ever you buy I would suggest stay away from the inline zip guns most of them you can not hunt with here and if you ever want to shoot in any of the competition shoots around, they are banned in all of them.Something about keeping it traditional and respecting the heritage of the sport.There is a big shoot in Bend coming up the 21,22,23 of this month,if you want to see some beautiful guns stop over and you will see what muzzleloading is all about.