gun problem

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 07:14 PM

I have a winchester model 88 308 cal.
when i go to sight it in and take a couple shots, it seems after my fourth shot it is all over the paper high low left right. This guy at the range said the barrel is hitting the wood and he filed the stock down a little and it seemed to work, but know im in the same boat.

please [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

skein · 01-14-2003, 07:24 PM

Tell us more. Are you using a scope? If so, have you tried wiggling it back and forth or side to side? If it moves even the slightest, that will do it.

When you shoot it those 4 or 5 times, does the barrel get hot to the touch? Not just warm, but hot enough that you don't really want to leave your hand there even though it won't burn it.

What is the distance to your target? Most of us sight in somewhere in the 100 yd range, but will often shoot at 25 or 50 yards while we're getting it "dialed in."

What kind of a rest are you shooting from? Sandbags? Blocks? Or are you just holding it?

And finally, what ammo are you using? How many grains for the bullets?

There's more, but if we start with these, we may find the problem.

Skein

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 07:45 PM

yes im using a 3x9 tasco and there is no side to side or up or down movement.
The barrel will get hot or warm to the touch but i can leave my hand on the barrel.
I do use a rest and shoot from 100 and 50 yards and i have had my dad and brothers shoot it seems to have no change.
The ammo is remington 180 gr.

[ 01-14-2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: elkcamp ]

bigshark · 01-14-2003, 07:45 PM

Elkcamp

The fellow at the range assumed you have a seating problem on the barrel. When pressure is put on a different point of the barrel it will cause the barrel to vibrate differently each time it comes to rest and move the point of impact accordingly. If it were me, I would check to see if this was a valid diagnosis. To do this take a sheet of paper and cut a few pieces into postage stamp size squares. Remove the barreled action from the stock. Toward the forward end of the stock(about an inch) glue two or three squares on top of each other in the channel the barrel lays in and replace the stock. This will give you a high pressure point that should force the barrel to come to rest at the same point each time you shoot. If your grouping reduces size significantly you have found the majority of your problem.

[ 01-14-2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 07:54 PM

If i find that when i put the paper in the stock and find it did help is the stock bad? or do i leave the paper in the stock?

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 07:55 PM

If i find that when i put the paper in the stock and find it did help is the stock bad? or do i leave the paper in the stock?

bigshark · 01-14-2003, 08:05 PM

Sure you can but you don't want the paper to get wet and change yet again. I would consider having the barrel glass bedded in your current piece of wood so you have an all weather stock. I love those 88's and a few bucks is worth spending on such a wonderful old gun that will last for generations with normal use. Skein can probably help you make it shoot tight enough to call it a tack hammer. Win used very good barrels in that era and you just need to TUNE that little baby up to make it a real dream of a shooter.

[ 01-14-2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

KingFisher85 · 01-14-2003, 08:05 PM

I'm learning a lot from this. I've had this problem before on an older gun of mine.
Another thing that I have found out of MY 308 is, just my 2 cents now. Lose the 180 gr. and shoot 165 or 150 gr. for your 308 win. I get so much better groupings with the 165s and even better with the 150 gr. then I did when I was shooting the 180 gr. You will even get a better range out if it all.
You most likely new this already but I just wanted to say it

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 08:18 PM

Bigshark where do i find this barrel glass bedded. my dad gave me this gun on my 14th birthday and i want to give it to my son

thank you

TheTexan · 01-14-2003, 08:23 PM

When he was filing the stock, he was floating the barrel. You should be able to take a $1 bill and pass it between the stock and barrel all the way down. First thing I would do is make sure your barrel is clean. I had one that performed similar to what you are describing and all that it took was to remove the copper fouling. It could be that simple and cheap. Get some copper solvent and follow the directions, cleaning the gun definitely won't hurt it.

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 08:32 PM

ex-tex
a one dollor bill is tight and i can not get it all the way down. the gun was clean but not with copper cleaner

[ 01-14-2003, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: elkcamp ]

bigshark · 01-14-2003, 08:37 PM

elkcamp

All it really is, is epoxy usually mixed with sawdust of the same wood, in this case American Walnut. I think I would call Woodcrafters here in Portland and tell them what you want to do. I would also check with Allison and Carey gun shop as they may have a kit. You might try Moe at his shop as he use to have a stock guy in in shop and he may have the makings for sale. Remember if you simply use clear nail polish to seal the channel and action and the paper it will work as well. It depends on how important appearances are to you. But don't buy or do any of this except the paper thing to see if its your real problem. You may want to start with two pieces instead of three to see if it helps. I'm suggesting this because I have seen it many time before and I suspect that the guy at the range saw something that convinced him it was a bedding
problem. Again a very common thing.

TheTexan · 01-14-2003, 08:46 PM

elkcamp,

The dollar bill test was a simpler way of checking what Bigshark was telling you. The barrel of your gun is definitely contacting the stock and it could be changing after each shot. If it is an old gun I would still clean it with some copper solvent and shoot it again first.

Bigshark, Would you not want the barrel floated or is this what you are getting at?

elkcamp · 01-14-2003, 08:47 PM

bigshark will this paper test keep it a floating barrel system? If it works what is this kit?

[ 01-14-2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: elkcamp ]

skein · 01-14-2003, 08:48 PM

I agree with Kingfisher85, about the bullets. A .308 seems to thrive on 150's or 165's. But you say that it shoots 3 or 4 shots pretty well, then begins to scatter them out. That is almost always 1) something loose, 2) heating up and pressing against the stock, or 3) pilot error (flinching or failing to follow through).

There is one more variable here, and that is the scope itself - internally. Sometimes a scope will be jarred by the recoil and not hold its zero. I would look at that last, though, after I'd satisfied myself that the other items were okay.

Check all the screws: the ones holding the action to the stock both front and rear. Tighten them *very* securely.

Check the barrel/stock contact: do what Bigshark and Ex-tex suggested with the dollar bill and pieces of paper.

Concentrate: make sure you are not flinching or "pulling" the trigger. A nice steady squeeze is what you want. And while you're at it, make sure you do everything the same each time, like using the same amount of grip and putting your cheek on the stock at the same spot and firmness.

Oh yeah, I also agree that you should give it a thorough cleaning. I like to use ProShot Copper solvent since there's no bad chemical reaction or odor, but any real copper solvent should work. Follow the directions on whatever you get.

My brother had an 88 that was a dream. I watched him shoot a seal in the eye at over a hundred yards. (that was when you could legally hunt them). Those are good guns.

Skein

bigshark · 01-14-2003, 09:01 PM

No elkcamp it will not be a floating barrel. This is a good way to go with some guns and some climates. It is not ideal in this case as 1. We live in a climate that causes wood to swell and shrink as the weather changes. 2. This is an 88 and if you look at the barrel you will notice how similair it is to the Mod 70(pre64) featherweight barrel. These light weight 22 inch barrels vibrate a good deal more than a standard weight because there is less metal.
The way you want to go is your choice but I would ask about how much stockwood can crawl from month to month before I floated the barrel on this gun. But thats just my opinion. I suspect that a kit from a stockmaker might run $20 or so. You can make your own if you just sand some walnut wood with a spinner gather up the dust and add it to the epoxy.

[ 01-14-2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

Flying Roast Beef · 01-15-2003, 04:26 AM

Just one point to make, be carefull about modifying this stock. A replacement may be very very hard to find. I had an 88 that I traded away and some of that wood is pretty thin and this rifle has not been made in a long time.

TheTexan · 01-15-2003, 07:16 AM

Bigshark,

I don't quite understand. I am trying to learn also so please explain your reasoning. If we live in a climate that causes wood to expand and shrink, why would you not float the barrel. It seems to me that if the barrel is contacting the wood, this expansion/shrink would change your point of impact. Please let me know if I am wrong. Thanks!

bigshark · 01-15-2003, 01:14 PM

ex tex

The reason is stated above. This is a mod 88, look at the barrel and see how light weight it is. The less metal the more violent the vibration. The thickness of a dollar bill is not enough clearance as it will likely touch again as soon as the weather changes. Soon you have an enlet that looks like grand canyon. :grin: I would not start taking wood away. It may not be a bedding problem and you are cutting on the stock? I wouldn't, but thats just me.
The pressure point method as discribed allows for a cradle where he can at least test it to see if its the problem. If it is he can leave it that way and it will shoot well. Or he can then decide if he really thinks he is enough of a craftman to start removing wood. He can't replace that stock easily and I would be very careful about cutting and removing wood. Just my thought on the matter.

nerta · 01-15-2003, 08:57 PM

[img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] Try using electrical tape under the barrel. When the right thickness is found cut a hole in it and rough up the wood under it put a drop of two part epoxy in the cut out area. Apply release to the barrel and tighten in the stock. When the epoxy is dry remove the excess tape. If it shoots good your done if not file and sand the epoxy out and try something else. This should work, it's worked for me in the past. Not all barrels like to be free floated for some reason. :grin:

Gus Orviston · 02-01-2003, 08:13 AM

Dial the ammo back as suggested, seems reasonable, and a common debug technique.

Then I would suspect the cross hairs moving inside the scope.

Next Copper fouling, more commom on Weatherbys and this can really cause issues in free bored guns... use amonium-nitrate, run the patches until they are clean. Amonium-nitrate will make the patch turn blue when it comes in contact with copper. Basic Hoppes and the like will not remove the coppoer.

Glass beading is for more fine tuning a good shooting gun, not fixing gross targetting problems IMO. Glassbeading a gun before i had a higher quality scope on it seems like polishing t#$*ds, invest in a Leupold, Weaver, Nikon etc... first

gus....

woof master · 02-01-2003, 10:03 AM

Brother its not the gun its you i seen you shoot

02-01-2003, 05:59 PM

I'd suggest glass bedding the reciever.

JCJ · 02-01-2003, 06:15 PM

Try Joes or Fishermans for bedding compound.I have used Accraglass,works good but you have to add a coloring agent to it or the one I like best for walnut stocks is Micro bed.It is already colored walnut and just mix the two parts together,like epoxy.Be sure and use a release agent on the barrel ,in case you need to disassemble it later down the line.

02-01-2003, 08:23 PM

Accraglass Jell is a bit easier to use for a beginer.

eightball · 02-01-2003, 08:54 PM

I would follow Ketas advice. I did that to my old remington. It will stack bullets at one hundred yards. I had a gunsmith replace the barrel and glass bed the reciever. The glass bed was only 45.00. What a shooter now. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Distilled · 02-02-2003, 12:22 AM

I didn't read through all the posts so I apologize if I am repeating something already said but it may be something going on with the steel in the barrel. I had a 7 Mag once that would put 3 shots in the same darn hole then it would start to wonder. If I shot more than about 7 or 8 shots it got REAL bad. I tried everything I could think of and had a dozen people look at it and no luck. I resolved that it had to me metallurgical.

Guess it would kind of depend on if this is a new phenomenon that has occurred since you bought the gun or if it was like this in the beginning etc etc...

Just a thought........