Should we clone a champion?

[bigshark]

Another thread asks the question about the gene pool and a trait of retrievers. I though about posting my question under that thread but it might not be the right thing to do so I will post it as a new topic. As it says should we clone such a dog? You might recall I want a retriever and at my age I have a concern about getting a puppy that may not turn out to be what I want. I don't get rid of them, I keep them for as long as they live. Labsforme put me on to a great idea of a started dog. It all came to a halt when the wife said we should get a puppy...........Oh no, not again! If this was the best way to get the wifes OK then it should be that there are lines of breeding that would put the odds in your favor bigtime if your willing to pay high(for me anyway) dollars for one. Well, that isn't exactly how it works. The breeders who have these highpower bullets of desire don't just sell them to anyone(guys like me). They want these pups to go to those who will use them for competition......trials and at the very least hunt tests. Well the later is something I am interested in but not trials, and I'm not going to lie to anybody to pay $2500 for a puppy.
Perhaps as good a champion as has ever been is a dog named EBONSTARS LEAN MAC.
I have not spoken to anyone who has a dog out of this line who is not happy. Don't misunderstand me they are not all making it in the trials and there are wash-outs. But these dogs are at least super hunting dogs for any of us who are really more hunt oriented first and compitition oriented second. In my search I learned that these pups are as high as they are because Maxx (his call name) died last august at age 11. So here is the bottom line.
There is a bank of Maxx's sperm and there will be additional breeding in the future, so I'm told by some folks who believe they will be involved. Well, of course the Sire is picked but who will be the Dam? Why not clone and not have to worry about the dam? A dog with four national titles........why not? I don't know anything about the rules but I have to think someone is going to say no? If I were in the business I'm sure I would. But is such an exception as this dog was, worth the clone and then allow the clone to carry on the line for his lifetime? I have to tell you I'm not comfortable with this idea but I can't help think that this is an interesting thought. From an economic standpoint, the pups from the sperm bank are going to be a lot more than $2500. Now I wish I had gotten to see this dog work. He must have been really something else. Anyway I raise the subject for discussion. I know I won't be buying one unless I win Powerball and those are 120,000,000 to 1...........odds. Even higher than me picking the right pup.

[ 01-08-2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

[crabbait]

You bet we should clone him! I would love to "rewind" Nick and do it again. Great dogs don't come along every day. Why make them "once in a lifetime"?

[Lured In]

While I agree it would be interesting, near death experiences are also interesting. :shocked: Personally, I believe that cloning, people or otherwise is nothing more than an effort to see WHAT can be done vs. what should be done. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean that we should do it. (That's not to say there is not some scientific merit in what could be done and that it would help many people. Specifically I am thinking of cloning organs for those with failing innards). Given human nature; however, that would not be the end or limit of what science does with cloning.

IMHO life is special and what makes our love for each other and our dogs so awesome is knowing that this is the only time we have with them and to make the most of it. I believe that our appreciation of things comes from the fact that we understand how precious they really are.

Lean Mac was special because he was an exceptional dog. If we had 5 clones of him, that uniqueness would be somewhat reduced and I would say there are still no guarentees that the clones would perform to the same level.

I attended a seminar many years ago that addressed something (philosophically speaking) that I believ is being overlooked in the discussion of cloning. That is that what makes us 'who we are' is not in the genetics, its our personality. More specifically our 'spirit or soul'. Think of how many tremendously talented athletes there are who generally waste their talent. They don't do this because the are somehow genetically inferior, they do it as a conscious choice base on their personality.

For me this is one of the main reasons I don't approve of cloning. (For instance, think of identical twins who are in effect synchronized clones, genetically.) Are they ever exactly the same. Aren't their personalities in fact different? Don't they have different talents? All with the exact same (cloned) genetics? How do you explain this? The only logical explaination is that it is not in the genes, its in their spirit (personality). That spirit which truley makes them unique.

Summing up, you might be able to clone Lean Mac's (or anyones) genetics, but you will not get Lean Mac or anything even close.

Interesting topic though.

[Chukrchaser]

The "to clone or not to clone" question seems to be ignoring certain aspects of genetics. Genetics is only a potential. A clone does not guarrantee that the dog will be identical in all aspects -- it has the potential -- environment, training, experience -- all influence to varying degrees.

A dog may have the "genes" for perfect conformation -- but without proper nutrition and excercise it will not reach the genetic potential it was born with-- Likewise, genetically, the dog may have the predisposition to be a superb bird dog -- but with out the proper exposure, training and practice it will never achieve it's potential. One slip, accident or error and you have a gun shy dog or a lab that is afraid of water or a brittany that won't point --

And too, for some of us, it is the challenge to develop the potential, through the time honored methods of breeding and training that put us in the field with our dogs. There are some of us that would rather work our dogs and let some one else do the shooting.