Force fetch gene pool??

crawdad · 01-08-2003, 09:49 AM

With more and more people (especially proffesional trainers) force training thier dogs, then is the natural desire to retrieve being bred out of our labs, goldens and chessies? It seems to me that if these force trained dogs are making up the bulk of the breeding pool, that trainability would take precident over natural desire. I've trained two labs without force training them. Both have been retrieving fools. I know alot of people swear by force training and I'm not knocking what works for someone else, but I am concerned about the long term effect on the breed. Anyone have an oppinion?

skein · 01-08-2003, 10:19 AM

I'm not a proponent of force-fetch training, but I've only seen it on the Waterdog video (not you, Rich, another waterdog

) and Labs4me indicated that may not be the best way to teach it. I'd like to know more, but the guy teaching it under Richard Wolters name didn't convince me.

Skein

Lured In · 01-08-2003, 12:26 PM

While I am no expert on the subject, I am in the middle of Force Fetch with my 8 month old lab pup. I find the whole process rather intriguing as I believe it has a lot of merit. Even among pro trainers their is some disagreement as to what FF should encompass and how/what force should be applied. Most will not argue the IMPORTANCE of FF. They all agree that some type of program establishing a level of expectation with commands should be taught.

Crawdad...relatively speaking, FF has little to with genetic makeup and given what it is intended to do, dogs with the strongest natural retrieving desire, will do better in an FF program than those that lack that desire. (It is the equivalent of saying that because you teach your dog to sit, future generations will loose their natural instinct to put their hind end down to take a break.) FF is an extension of obedience. Just like teaching your dog to sit, stay, come/here, heel, etc. For those things you probably used some 'force' (such as your hand, a leash, choke/pinch collar, healing stick, e-collar) to make them sit or whatever. That was your way of forcing them to sit. The result is a dog that reliably sits or obeys the command given. So if you pushed your dogs hind end down to teach the 'sit' command, you FORCE SAT your dog. This is the exact same application of force, only it is directed toward retrieving.

As I understand it, FF develops several key areas of the dogs natural desire to retrieve. First is to teach the dog to hold and not to chew. (Combine hold with come/here and heal and you have delivery to hand of a marked bird.) Personally I like my birds to only have shot holes and not teeth marks or most of one breast gone, as a result of the dog having a snack.

The second is to retrieve, on command (just like sitting) reliably. A lab should have a natural instinct to follow motion and thus we are moving them to retrieve something they may not have seen fall. This is where being able to send your dog on a 'back' command (straight line) for a unmarked bird is taught along with several other handling commands (such as over and for some angled back casts).

A dog will not know what to do when you command back, if it is not taught, and will not go 'back' (sit) unless it has been forced to do so. Keep in mind, NONE of these things (holding, blind retrieves, handling) are requirements for the everyday hunting partner. IMHO they are EXTREMELY helpful. I have seen many a good hunting lab that had to be walked to an area where a bird fell to find a bird they did not see fall. This has nothing to do with the dogs ability, but with what they have been taught. I personally would rather; line my dog up, command back, and have the dog take a good line to where the bird fell (meanwhile I can enjoy a cup of coffee). The dog also knows that the back command means 'go get a bird/bumper out there that you didn't see fall'. So they are excited to use their natural instinct to retrieve something they didn't know was there. You have built confidence into your dog that when you send it, there's something good out there for him bring back.

Keep in mind I am not talking about HOW FF is done, only why it should be done. I personally believe that by utilizing the high retrieving drive of a lab in a solid FF program (of which there are many), will actually INCREASE the desire of the dog. The dog has confidence in its job and knows what is expected of him.

The end result is a happy, secure lab, that perfroms to your level of expectation whether in the living room or in the field.

Again this is just my understanding and I am sure others will be able to add some good info to this topic.

[ 01-08-2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Lured In ]

Tilla · 01-08-2003, 06:55 PM

Lured in,
That brought tears to my eyes.

Very well said.
I want my dog to pick up the bird and deliver it to hand, everytime, no exceptions. No foolin' around, dropping and shaking off water, munchin' it up, etc. That's what the Force Fetch is all about. It makes for a happy team.
For any professionally trained retriever it is the norm with very few exceptions. For anyone involved with AKC hunt tests and field trials, the lack of an effective FF program will eventually show up as a "hole" in the training.
Hey, I'm not making this up! Really ! I watch/judge 100's of examples of this every year.

What the issue really becomes is that most people don't have the time to learn the art of FF. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm no good at it. The other issue is that many people don't want to spend the money to have a pro do it. There is nothing wrong with the practicality of that. They are separated from their new best buddy for 4-8 weeks. It's tough to be away from the pup.

To address the concerns of Crawdad on the breeding pool concerns I would not worry. The quality of todays dogs are lightyears ahead of the dogs just 10 years ago. Just ask the Labs who dress me in the morning to go hunting.

Fishalot · 01-08-2003, 07:03 PM

I like the way you look at it Lured in.

Do you want your pup to be one who always delivers to hand, never drops a bird, never exhibits a hard mouth, never refuses to retrieve, is super presistent in his hunt for that diffecult bird, is exceptionally easy to steady, and a model student for blind and hand signals? If your answer is yes to all the above , then you will want to condition your retriver.

Fishalot

steelheadslayer · 01-13-2003, 03:36 PM

I force fetched my lab 8 years ago at the age of six months. She went to it really well and was never down or discouraged during the training. I used tons of praise and petting whenever she did the right thing. This method is different from years past where it involved a lot of bites and fights between dog and trainer. I chose to do it myself after sending my first dog off to be trained. I could get together with the trainer and I saw a totally different dog with him than when she was with me. She knew him to be the boss where she was just to much for me at the time. I like the reliability of the dog to retrieve not only because she was bred and trained to do it, but to do it because she knows that is what I want her to do. Just like sitting and healing. I used the Tri Tronics Retriever Training book by Jim Dobbs [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] which is easily followed and a very humane way to accomplish this training. This book deals with all aspects of basic and advanced training for the Lab owner.