Cougars

[GutshotApe]

Yesterday I listened to Bill Castillo, ODFW's wildlife biologist at Springfield, present his cougar situation report for the Eugene/Spgfd. metro area.

He has mapped out all cougar reports and complaints for the last several years with red dots on the base ODF map. Looks like a bad case of measles. Red dots all over the place, some within the city limits of Eugene :shocked: . Cougar proponents claim the reports are bogus and overstate cougar numbers due to multiple reports of the same animal and misreporting - "it was just someone's yellow lab, not a cougar" .

Castillo also mapped out all known and verified (by his office) cougar kills within 15 miles of the Eug/Spgfd city limits. From 1994 to 2001 there were 74 confirmed dead cougars caused by legal hunting, damage control kills, road kills, and natural mortality (mostly young male cougars killed by bigger, older males).

These 74 cougars were all in suburban areas and illustrate the problem ODFW has in dealing with cougar complaints. Although the law allows use of dogs to run down problem cougars, it is nearly impossible to obtain permission from numerous small tract and lot owners in time to use dogs while the scent trail is fresh. Also, snaring doesn't work well. In the wild, cougars often return to their kills for 2nd and 3rd day feedings and are easily caught. But suburban cougars tend to kill pets and consume them in one feeding. If they kill suburban "pet" deer, they often feed only once, then move on.

Its a very interesting presentation and one I recommend taking in if you ever get the opportunity. Bill's show is on a PowerPoint projection display and is portable.

[skein]

Yeah, GSA, I'd like to see it. How and where can we get access to it (or him)? I'm especially interested in the ratio of each method of control, i.e. how many were taken by hunters, how many by damage control, etc.

I'd like to see dogs outlawed for damage control, simply to bring the "managers" in line with the rest of us. I really don't give a damn whether a cougar gets a deer in the back yard or somebody's $14,000 Llama; it's just doing what nature designed it to do. If it's illegal for us to hunt them with dogs, then it should be illegal for *anyone* to hunt them with dogs. I guarantee the folks with the most to lose (llamas, for example) will scream louder than the sportsmen ever did. Won't it be neat to have them come over to our side? :grin:

Skein

[Bait O' Eggs]

Skein - How would you propose the damage control hunter track down a cougar without dogs?

I think once it is determined there exist a problem cougar "by managers" and it needs taken down, we should use the cheapest most effective method available. Without dogs I can see a team of hunters spending quite a bit of time trying to find the cougar. It isnt like we have the tax dollars for that kind of operation.

Without dogs a cougar is a very difficult animal to hunt.

Of course if a lama owner was a non hunter and wanted the cougar removed, he may vote the other way next time.

[ 12-13-2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Bait O' Eggs ]

[GutshotApe]

Skein - You can call Bill Castillo at the ODFW office in Springfield 726-3515. He might come to Sweet Home if you could assemble enough audience to make it worth his time. He has shown his presentation to numerous groups since I first saw it several yrs ago.

I agree with BOE - ODFW needs to be able to handle damage/threat complaints as efficiently as possible. Unfortunately, suburban llama owners are far outnumbered by the urban voters who passed measure 18/34.

A real problem for ODFW is finding funding to cover the significant amount of time & resources spent handling cougar complaints - I believe it all comes from license & tag fee revenue. The housewife who calls demanding ODFW do something about "their" cougars believes her income taxes entitle her to complain [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] . But I don't think any general fund money goes to ODFW for this use. :depressed:

[roadsend]

The general public created the cougar problem with their vote, let the general fund pay to solve it. I wonder how Eugene voted on the cougar-dog thing? Problem cougars should be trapped and moved to the Portland green areas and left there. I know how the Portland folks voted on the cougar-dog issue. Let them live with the problem they created

[MountainLion84]

I think they should have a damage control pool of applicants to harvest the problem cougar. They could still use the same state sponsored dog team, but let a tax-paying hunter have the chance to harvest the Cat.

[Norm]

Thanks for the report GutshotApe, I wish I had the time to attend some of these meetings. The sad truth is public opinion will not change until some kid gets mauled or killed. The fact that biologists have little control over the harvest is becoming more of a problem. I don't think we should punish livstock owners for a problem created by PETA and a few other animal rights groups. Also remeber the Oregon Humane Society also had a hand in it . As much as I love dogs, they get none of my $$. The anti hunters were much more organized when that bill came up. I'll be ready with my time and my checkbook next time around. There is no way for effective and selective harvests on Couger or Bear without the use of dogs and bait.

[lightline]

When the quotas where met for zone E (98) cats only one cat was taken from the snake river unit. The quota was met before rifle elk season even started. We got a pretty good job done on the bears with a fairly liberal spring bear hunt, but we still only have a half a doz. calfs per 100 cows. The dry conditions we have had for a few years may have caused some problems, But in that type of country its hard to believe Its a main factor. That just about leaves the cat as being the bad guy. I talked to the biologist for the N.E part of the state and that was the take he had on the calf problems. He also said that the imnaha unit was up in the 38-40 calves per 100 range. It looks like we need to get rid of some cats. Maybe we need to go by units instead of having 98 tags for all north east part of the state.

[skein]

Bingo!

Of course my tongue was fairly well glued to the side of my cheek when I wrote those words. Truth is, that's the *only* effective way to quickly and efficiently track down a livestock-killing critter - be it a cougar, wolf, bear, or whatever.

Of course if a lama owner was a non hunter and wanted the cougar removed, he may vote the other way next time.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">BOE, he might not just vote the other way, he may be out out with a petition sheet asking the ban be removed. :grin:

My point is I don't like the double-standard.

Skein

[SandyRiverFisher]

since I will likely get hate mail for this post, let me first say that I am not coming out against the use of dogs in hunting cats. In fact, my son, who was three or four years old at the time, and I were stalked by a cougar a few years ago near mt.Hood. However, in instances such as that which I experienced, as well as most suburban areas where cougar populations are on the increase, I fail to see what the legalization of dogs for hunting will accomplish. The same factors wich make it so difficult for damage control officers to get problem cats make it impossible for recreational hunters to go into these areas and do much good. Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt it practically impossible for a hunter to chase dogs after a cat when the area he is trying ot hunt is a checkerboard of five acre private lots? The same cougar that my son and I had fallow us up the mountain is now being blamed for stalking several other people and killing horses in the area, yet no one will likely ever kill it, dogs or not, due the the private property situation in that area.

Sandy,
Lower cat populations in good habitat will keep the young cats out of populated areas.
Dogs are the best way to reduce the cat population. Trapping could be used in more populated areas.

[fishwhenican]

NIMBY most of the folks in the south hills area of Eugene believe in it!! I don't want to see any kids or adults mauled by a cougar, but I hope they eat as many Fidos and lil' kitties as they can. It is the only way to wake those people up! Most of them still still eat meat, they just thought it was a good idea at the time. With the bear population also exploding I am looking some good old laughs in the future. Just to honor diversity of course (as long as it is thier idea of diversity. Maybe if it gets bad enough a majority of the members of the city council ( of the Peoples Republic of Eugene) will pass a vote banning cougars from eating pets, that will stop em I'm sure :grin:

[Bill Monroe]

As I understand from Bill Castillo, one of the major problems is, indeed, that cougars have habituated themselves to human habitat, so yes, there are five-acre plots and where one landowner doesn't want his kids playing in the back yard with a cougar around, his neighbor lady (or whoever) likes seeing it once in a while. This is spreading across the valley and will be a problem...out in the woods, deer and elk hunters have the harvest back up to pre-intiative levels. But that's not where the problems are...At least before, biologists could direct controlled hunt tags in units where they needed to manage numbers...
One suggestion is to allow wolves into the state. They take care of cougars and coyotes pretty effectively.

[GutshotApe]

fishwhenican -

Only a majority? I bet the vote would be unanimous! (lived in P.R. of Eugene 15 yrs, escaped to rural Lane Co. 8 yrs ago; now pay about 1/2 the taxes compared to Eug :grin: ).

[Gun Rod Bow]

GSA,

Good post. My family ranch is South of Crow in Lane Cty. We lost two calves to lions about 7 yrs ago.

The state trapper stays very busy. He told us the biggest problem they have is following a hot track onto private land that they have not obtained permission to cross.

The state PAYS houndsmen to run problem lions. Hunter money pays for this.

Use of dogs in more remote areas would keep the population of cougars in check therefore helping to keep them out of town.

Banning dogs never made sense for bears or lions since this is the only "catch and release" hunting that can be done. How are you supposed to judge a lion or bear from accross canyon?

Bill M. do you really think a pack of wolves skulking around the 'burbs would be preferable to cougars?

Great Topic [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

GRB

[GutshotApe]

GunRodBow - I don't think much if any license money pays for govt. trappers. Some counties have a trapping program (i.e. Douglas) and there are federally funded ADC trappers in most areas. The odfw people spend a lot of time taking complaints and dealing with cougars but I don't think they normally trap 'em. But sometimes they do:

A couple years ago odfw's Medford office got in trouble with the cat lovers for using a stray housecat for cougar bait. A cougar was killing pets around a housing area. ODFW brought in a culvert trap and put a dumped-off stray cat they'd caught out at the wildlife area in the culvert but inside a heavy-guage wire cage. The cat was dry and fed & watered daily :smile: . If a cougar had come into the trap it couldn't have killed the kitty. However, neighbors, who the trapping was intended to help, blew the whistle and the cat was "rescued" by the local humane society-types and the ODFW office took a lot of heat. :blush:

Bad, bad ODFW.

[Beer Waggin]

My dog was two years old when he encountered a cougar in the Springfield area. He wasn't mine at the time and was to only stay for a few weeks before he went on to Boxer rescue. He never made it past the front door when the time came, I kept him and still have him.

It's only a matter of time before it's to much of a problem.

[bigshark]

It seems to me that small children would not be safe from any of the three. I know very little about the wolf. Will they not adapt to urban surroundings? If they do not then perhaps they are a better alternative. Or would they just force cats and coyotes into urban areas to escape the wolf? What do the science people say?

[ 12-20-2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]