Has the Controlled Hunt System Worked?

[Bait O' Eggs]

I think the controlled hunt is a good thing. If the state had not been limiting the number of hunters in your area I would guess you would now be going 0 for 8 right along with everybody else.

There are more people than ever and if they made it a free for all east like the coast still is, I believe the number of hunters would massively hurt the animal numbers east.

I still thinks there are some ways to beat the crowds and use the system to your advantage. I hope to test this theory next year with a little leg work this winter. And no I wont be doing what the ODFW employees were doing that got busted a few years ago. (Though if somebody knows what hunts are being cancelled before the draw I would like to use that info to my advantage for a first choice hunt )

[TheRogue]

Look at the rapid decline across the West in the muley population. As BOE said, what would we be looking at if they hadn't gone to controlled hunts?? Remember the horrible winter kill we had that winter...was it 88-89? The numbers still haven't completely rebounded from it and the drought conditions we had in the 90's.

Controlled hunts have my thumbs up!

[GutshotApe]

BOE - The cancelled hunt loophole has been closed.

Controlled hunts work. In addition to limiting hunter numbers for a higher quality hunt for those who draw, controlled hunts allow for more precise manipulation of animal populations. Best example is the spike-only elk hunts in E.O. A few "any bull" tags are issued, lots of spike-only tags. The result in some units is becoming apparent (thru all the static caused by other factors): spike elk weigh 50 pounds more than they used to when harvested because they are born a month earlier than they used to be. That's because there are now some big bulls to breed the cows the first time they come into estreus the preceeding fall. When spikes do the breeding, they screw around, so to speak, waste time, don't get the job done right the first time, etc., and the average cow is bred a month later. Or so I've been told - i.e. Wenaha unit.

[nerta]

Great question! I'm in favor of the controlled hunt system in general, although there are some problems with it. The first problem and the most apparent where I hunt is the hair tags. Over the years since the hair tag first season (where I hunt) the overall elk population has dropped. If the odfw reports are correct then the elk are on private land not public land. Having hunted the same area for many years this is just observation talking. I used to see 40 to 60 cow and calfs each year prior to the hair tag first season hunts. Now I'm only seeing 10 to 20 a year. I do see a few more bulls but it takes more than bulls to make an elk herd. As far as mule deer goes it seems to me that they have been on the decline for quite some time. :depressed: The interstate herd in south central oregon has gone from the largest migrating deer herd in the US to only a fragment of its orig. size. Habitat, people ,weather and over hunting I guess...... Since the elk hair tag season in my hunting area, our party has only drawn first season spike, or hunted second season spike only so I know we're not hurting the herds to much. (We're only batting around 750.) Maybe if I ever get to draw a hair tag I'll selfishly change my opinion of them.

[MountainLion84]

I have mixed feelings. I do feel there is better hunting, when one does draw, but it comes at a price. my son just went for his first year, but it becomes very hard to build traditions and teach the country every other year. We have drawn deer and elk tags on alternating years like clockwork since the tag system came in to place, but we hunt different units for each. When I was young we hunted the same place every year, and built some great traditions. My son will be 14 next time we draw. them 16, 18 and off to college. I just feel the years slip away too fast as it is!!! I know we can hunt blacktails, but no one should have to do that. I guess at least we have those opportuntities. I feel sorry for the people that live in eastern oregon, and don't draw. I sure the hell wouldn't take vacation to come to Columbia County to hunt blacktails. I hunted the Rocky mountain spike only season this year.
I did get a bear, but the elk hunting was kind of a joke, I don't think I will do that again. We killed 3 branch antlered bulls the year before, and saw a bull this year, but in the timber it is tough to make sure they aren't branched. I think they should determine how many bulls, they can harvest, and how many cows. they should manage these hunts by gender, and eliminate the 'hair' tags.

[skein]

We tend to make assumptions that everything else has stayed the same, and the only change is the draw system. Even though we give a nod or lip service to more hunters, less access, closed roads, and so on, we don't give as much thought to changing patterns of the animals themselves.

I hunted deer over by Long Creek this year, and we saw quite a few deer and three legal, but not big, bucks. However, coming into town from the west, and looking north into the rancher's field, there were at least two hundred deer - every day. Why? Three reasons: food, water, and no hunting pressure.

We drove through another area while we were elk hunting and saw more elk than I've ever seen before - anywhere. Groups of five or six bulls, and groups of fifteen to probably eighty cows, usually with a spike or two tagging along. The same three reasons were at work there. And they were off limits to us.

Hunting pressure drives them toward places where they are no longer molested. Hunting pressure also thins them out. And I think they are *all* being counted in the total bull/cow ratios we hear so much about, but they're kind of like geese on a golf course - it doesn't matter how many there are, if they stay put and are un-huntable, they simply can't count in the overall equation.

But they are being counted, and the ones in public areas are being driven out - or killed. Not all of them, but enough to effect the availability and success ratio.

I believe we could come up with a workable solution, and I also believe it's not the one we're currently using. I'd like to see lots of discussion on this issue, because I believe there's enough collective knowledge, concern, and vision within the ifish community to come up with some pretty decent ideas.

Skein

[Capin' Dan]

The one thing that gets me the most about the draw system and the sauvie island draw is the application fees. I think that this is a very big reason why we have the draws. I think that the state ask jsus how much will these adicts pay for there fix to hunt and fish. It really gets me going every time I see a raffle or action for big game I personnally think that it is wrong. It is getting down right expensive and then you still don't draw out. I am 100% for my deer over east and I like that so I guess I like the system but $4.50 is too much for an application fee I'm thinkin. Just my .02 worth

[Grits]

I will preface this by saying that I am in no way an expert and the following opinions are from a complete layman. I would like to hear others opinions especially those that may be trained in game management.

When I started hunting at the age of 12 (14 years ago) it was one of the last years that you could buy an eastern Oregon buck tag over the counter. That year and the year after all 8 of the members in my group got their buck.

When they implemented the controlled hunt system I was initially disappointed but then began to think about how many deer would be available when you did draw a tag. The first year of the draw system we got our tags and again filled 8 of 8. The next year we didn't draw any tags but I was convinced the ODFW was doing the right thing and there would be so many deer available that it would make up for the years of not hunting. Nothing could be further from the truth. As the years went on our once 8 for 8 group has now become more like a 4 for 8 group. There used to be so many deer where we camped that we would get up in the morning and climb on top of the camper, glass the fields until we found some deer and then go on a stalk. Now it is miles in on a four-wheeler and then walk up and over, around and through and maybe you might see a deer.

I have to conclude that this means that the Controlled hunt system has not benefited the animal herds but for some reason has had an opposite effect because what I see is an increasingly dwindling number of animals.

My only thought is that a majority of the deer being counted towards the number of tags to be issued are on private land. I know from personal experience in the Roseburg area where they have continued to issue 2-3 thousand doe tags a year even though the unit only has like 3% public land and my experience in that area is the land owners are not interested in letting you hunt on their land. I can understand not wanting someone on your land but why does ODFW continue to issue so many tags when they know there is no where to hunt?

The only solution I could come up with would be to do away with the controlled system all together or the ODFW could decide how many animals they want harvested in a particular area and when that limit is met the hunting stops.

Has the controlled hunt system helped Oregon? If not why? If so how?

I do support the controlled hunt system for hair tags but think they need to consider how tags are issued in a particular region.

[GutshotApe]

People routinely spend $3 or $4 for a designer Starbuk cup of coffee. $4 for a controlled hunt application may seem high but it really isn't. The fee barely covers the costs of all the *** machines, part of the cost of printing the synopsis, the phone lines, the big computers at ODFW HQ, the big emergency generators at HQ in case PP&L fails on the night before tag sales stop, power, rent, etc. and last but not least, the computer geeks at ODFW HQ needed to program and run the system. They don't work for free - and I just read about how PERS debt/obligations are now up to $4500 per man,woman & child in OREgon. All state agency budgets are being ruined by increasing, repeated and evergrowing PERS payments which by law MUST be made - and this money comes right off the top.

It is going to get worse before it gets better, if it ever gets better. :depressed:

[Bait O' Eggs]

Corlyn - You made a reference to building tradition and you are right the tradition is as much a part of the hunt as any of it.

My old man hunting the coast for elk for 30 some years and never failed to kill his bull. He hunted the same ground each year and knew every canyon. I began my hunting in the same country by killing my first bull at 12 with him at my side. I spent many years hunting along side him and then branched off to begin my own traditions with my hunting buddies. We hunted the same area killing our bulls, I purchased a large wall tent so we could make elk season a camp trip also. Then the seasons got split up and moved around in the year and we got flustrated thinking about our hunt being gone. We have looked for a new place to build a tradition. We have rifle hunted the Cascades which a person can just go buy a tag. We have bow hunted the Ochoccos, we have rifle hunted the Ochoccos which is a draw every 3 or 4 years at best. :depressed:

Any way you cut it, I miss my traditions I have started, and hope to find a hunting method and season that allows me to begin a tradition with my son when he gets old enough to hunt. My old man wont even return to his old hunting ground, he has moved on to other places to spend his final hunts. I know he misses the old days, so do I. :depressed:

GSA - I know they closed the loop hole on cancelled hunts, I was just joking. Those ODFW guys had it pretty good until they invited the wrong guy to join them and got busted. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[GutshotApe]

Yeah, it was pretty amazing. The 15 or so ODFW employees (and about 2000 "civilians") discovered a way to get the hunt of their choice every year and to get another preference point in the bargain. If continued, the trend would have eventually "bankrupted" the tag draw system.

No laws were broken, no ODFW policy was violated (because nobody ever thought such a policy would be needed, there wasn't one), but what the 15 employees did was a breach of the public trust. Their job was to run the tag system for the public - and if a flaw was discovered, to fix it - instead, they found a way to exploit it and did. The really amazing thing is, like you referred to, the guy who let the OSP game cop in on "their little secret" apparently didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing.

A few of the younger miscreants resigned and left the state - good luck WA, ID, etc. Others just hunkered down, protected by the state employee's union, and await retirement and their golden PERS years ahead.

[Big Smizz]

I guess I'd like to chime in here. I agree with Skein in that there are other factors to consider other than exclusively the controlled hunt system as a reason for possible herd decline. I have observed a noticeable difference in numbers of animals since the ban on hunting with dogs for mountain lions. I really believe that if sportsman were allowed to bait for bears and use dogs for hunting cats we would see an increase in the deer and elk herds. Just my .02. What do you think?

[skein]

Grits, corylyn, all,

I agree, tradition is probably the most powerful of all hunting bonds and should be encouraged and supported. So I'm going to think out loud for a minute.

What if:

Preference points still counted, but license-years counted as well. Each year you buy a license should count toward your preference points. That way you wouldn't go back to zero just because you got drawn one year. If you live and hunt in the state all your life, you get (and deserve) a better shot at drawing a tag.

Total party license points should count toward a party draw. Limit the number of tags a party can draw, but let as many as wants to apply. If you have a big group or family, let them apply as a party, and let their license points count, but only give out three to five tags per drawn party. Then *they* can decide who gets to hunt that year, and *only* those five can get tags. The whole family can go, but this year it's Joe and Bobby's turn. Only those who signed up as part of the party would be eligible for the party's tags.

A number of tags should be set aside for first-timers and those who have just moved to the state and satisfied their residency requirements. Those folks go in the draw just as they do now.

Tag money should go to help provide access to private property much as it is now. Maybe even have a draw just for those access hunts. I think the Master Hunter program attempts this, but I don't hear much about it as a success or failure. Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife provides a good model.

Okay, that's all for now. Would something like this help? Does it make you think of other ideas that are even better and more workable?

Grits, this is a great thread!

Skein

[tailchaser]

I agree with a lot of the opinions out there. I too can only hunt the place I was taught 15 years ago when I was a kid every three years and agree that the numbers and size of animals has gone down considerably. However, ODFW is not the only entity to blame for the reduction. Yes, they do have a hand in it but they didn't vote for things such as no baiting and dogs for cougars and bears. Those two species alone are on a skyrocket of a pace in population. How many fawns die in the spring from these predators along with coyotes?? I'll answer that for you A LOT!!!! You can thank your own kind for that decision. I know here on the coast it used to be a rare day to see a bear or tremendous days to see a coug. Now I see often times 5-6 bears a day when I really look for them. Cougar sightings aren't even blinked at anymore.

We pick on the mature animals and the predators pick on the young and occassionally old. Unless something is done it's only a matter of time before we really see some dramatic cuts in numbers. With more hunters every day and less animals to go around it's a means to a major decline in our future. I would advise not to worry about this year or next, but think of how it's looking for the next ten to twenty. Looks bad to me. Before long we'll be drawing tags for blacktails too if we don't find a way to counteract the increase in pressure.

I'm an avid hunter and love the places I hunt but this trend has to end.

tc

[skein]

Tailchaser,

Not to muddy the water of the discussion at hand, but there are a couple of things that might interest you.

1) Jane Goodall just joined up with a group to "save the *endangered* cougars." She will raise more money for the cause than you and I can believe. Maybe I should put her in contact with the guy up in Canada who got jumped by one and ended up with 200 stitches in his face. Or the guy in Sisters who got to use dogs to track and kill one who started eating his $14,000 Llamas. Sheep and cattle aren't expensive enough, and it's only natural for them to kill and eat deer and elk, so that's okay.

Dr. Goodall recently joined the board of directors for The Cougar Fund, a non-profit organization whose educational focus caught her attention. "I always assumed the cougar was protected across America and was shocked to discover this great predator is still hunted across the majority of its range. My first childhood book featured a cougar. I fell in love with this animal then, and when I learned of the work the Cougar Fund is leading, I wanted to support this important effort.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Batten down the hatches....

2) Viagra works better than a black bear's gall bladder, and it's cheaper too. So now there won't be as much bear poaching to supply the Asian market, which means we're going to see an even more dramatic increase in bear populations.

Let's take these items up in another thread if we want to, but for right now, let's continue our discussion of the Controlled Hunt System.

Skein

[MountainLion84]

I think Skein has some good ideas. it seems there should be some sort of Grandfather clause for some of these things. I still think that one of the older members of our group has no idea why we keep changing units. my brother-in-law tried to explain to his dad that the northside unit was now a every 4th or 5th year hunt. he said "there isn't enough years left in my life at age 37 to only elk hunt every 4 or 5 years." I told my Dad that I wished we had more places to put him on a stand, rather than play chaueffer, but we are always grabbing a map, and hunting from point a to point b, not sure where we will come out. Every time we do move to a unit i almost feel bad that I probably just took some regular's tag, or campsite, or am wandering through his hunt. I think it definately brings down success rates.

[tailchaser]

My point was simply there's more to it than the tag system why there isn't as many animals as before. I dislike ODFW's policy's the same as everyone else, but sometimes it's easier to blame them than look at what we did that hurts the numbers also.

tc

[SHLEPROCK]

I think that the controlled hunts have hunters making choices that they may have not made with out the controlled hunt system. Before this system was put into place the hunters that I knew were happy to hunt their traditional areas for bucks or bulls. Now days with all the hunts to draw for people might be puting in for more cow or doe hunts than they used to. I do not have data to prove this but I am sure that the sucsess rate for those hunts are good and the animal numbers could suffer over time.

[GutshotApe]

The population of Oregon has more than tripled since 1940 and has doubled since 1975. The hunter pop. hasn't doubled or tripled but it has increased. Huntable areas and huntable deer have decreased. Desire to hunt is way up.

Look at what has happened with antelope tags. In the '70s and '80s not that many people applied for roughly the same number of tags as are available today (maybe 10% more tags today). I drew a tag in 1980 (my 1st application) and after serving out the wait period then in effect, drew another in 1985. After that it got much harder to draw because applications skyrocketed. Preference points were instated and after accumulating several I drew again in 1995. Hope to draw a tag again some day but the odds get worse each year.

The "beauty" of our tag system is that while 3/4 of the tags go to preference point holders, 1/4 of the tags are not restricted so you could draw with zero pref. pts.

The problem with Skein's idea is that we would end up with camps full of octogenarians and no more kids! Older people often make the argument that they don't have many hunting years left so they should get preference. Well, another way to look at it is the older guys experienced the good old days back in the '40s, '50s and '60s when you could go anywhere and the deer pop. was robust. Big mule deer all over the place, etc, etc.

There are just too many older, experienced hunters out there. If they got preference for longevity, it would penalize the younger guys who never will have it as good as the old geezers did in their "good old days".

The CH system is complex enough now and seems to work.

My $0.02 worth.

[Grits]

corlyn- Your point on tradition is well made and after a little thought was probably what prompted me to start this thread. I miss going to the same camp, hunting the same areas and building traditions and memories because of that.

Although I have been successful in hunting western Oregon it is not my favorite area to hunt.

It also irks me a little when I hear about people drawing tags in "my" unit and either not hunting or spending more time with a beer in their hand than a rifle.

I have started doing a little bow hunting to get me back to the areas I enjoy but it seems like a lot of others have done that as well.

[ 11-26-2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Grits ]

[Snapset]

I do not admire many of the decisions the state makes, but IMHO, the controlled hunt system is the best thing the state has ever done to help hunters and wildlife.

I haven't made a trip to Eastern Oregon without filling my tag since the Controlled Hunt process started. Also, I can hunt areas knowing that there won't be crowds, due to the limited number of tags available.

I have the points for Mule Deer next year, but I don't know if I will go. My first love is Blacktail and I missed out on that this year because of my Northside hair tag this fall.

Oregon is great, because regardless of your luck, you can always find a seson to hunt deer and elk. And if you do draw, if you work it right you will almost certainly bring home meat.