bullet weight???

[MasterCaster]

What are the advantages and disadvantages between 150 and 180 gr bullets?

The reason Im asking is I have been using 150gr rounds for a long time now on both deer and elk and they worked fine on both but I wanted a little more "knock down" so I went to the 180gr round before looking at the ballistics. Now that I have looked into it Im not sure if I made the right choice. There is alot more drop to a 180gr round than the 150gr and the 180 seems to lose alot of energy with the distance. Most shots are pretty close and it wouldnt matter anyway but what about shots with a little distance to them? I dont really understand all this ballistic stuff yet but Im trying :grin:

Im just not sure if I made the right choice or not and looking for opinions.

Almost forgot this is in a 30.06.

Thanx

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[ 11-07-2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: MasterCaster ]

[Firedog]

MC, I posted my opinion over on the other thread. You also might want to look at accurate arms forum page. The link is on the bottom of my post. They have great info on guns and loads.

[MasterCaster]

Thanx firedog I read it already. I have been looking into it a little more and I think I made the right choice. There isnt as much differance as I thought. I think the advantages do outweigh the disadvantages.

Im still looking for other opinions though :grin:

Jon :smile: :smile:

[skein]

MC,

I'm in the heavier bullet camp. Light bullets tend to expend their energy closer to the surface, resulting in more blood shock and meat damage. The heavier bullets seem to dig in deeper and hold together for better penetration, especially for larger animals like elk. Either will kill efficiently, but I'll bet in 8 out of 10 cases you'll have less peripheral damage with the 180's.

My 2 cents.

Skein

[dampainter]

do u want to push em over or knock em down? I use 180 for my 30-06....

[MasterCaster]

Thanx skein I never even thought of it like that but it doesnt matter if ya can hit em in the head :shocked: :grin: :shocked:

BTW sad case with that buck in your back yard. Hope the person/people get whats they deserve.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[MasterCaster]

dampainter....Ive made em hit the ground pretty hard with the 150's :grin: but i agree and thats why I went to the 180's a little more "punch"

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[ 11-07-2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: MasterCaster ]

[Flying Roast Beef]

If you handload you can play around untill your head swims. I have had terrific success shooting 165gr. Ballistic Tips and Partitions in my '06.

['ZZZZzzzzzz']

I used to shoot all 150 grain bullets from my .06, and have now converted to all 180 grain bullets for some of the same reasons listed. The difference in elevation drop is minimal and still maintains great knock down with less meat damage.

I think that is says something that the opinions throughout this thread have a lot in common. I have found that to be rare so when I see a trend this strong I suspect that we are collectively on the right track.

Z's-

[blacktail]

I prefer 180 grain for Elk and 165 grain for Deer.

Mike

[Flatfish]

I would reccomend the 180.No matter which bullet you choose,at some point in it's flight you will have to start holding high for bullet drop.Only on extreme range shots(the distance that makes you say "Hmmm that thing is a loooong ways out there")does the difference in bullet weight make much of a difference.the 180 should hold in the wind well. And wind is much tougher to judge than range is.Distance can be done with your scope.Wind can only be learnes by burning a lot of powder.I used to burn a lot of powder.25 pounds a year or so.At the time I shot many rifles that had a similar trajectory to a 30-06.Since I am familiar with it's flight path I use one in the field.If you are shooting at long range(at 350 yards I give you 5 dollars for every hit on a paper plate.You give me 1 dollar for every miss.At the end of the day I will have most of the money.Not an insult to your shooting skills.But someone fully capable of applying a flat trajectory does not ask which bullet do i use questions.)A friend is a sniper in the Navy.He does amazing things with a rifle.I have watched him myself.He says he "Feels" the shot now.No actual thought of wind or range(rangefinder does the work for that )he just points and hits.If I told you how far you would call me a liar.He laughed at me when I asked the same basic question to him.He says,"Pick a gun and load.Now shoot the thing til you can do it and you know you can make all reasonable hits.Trajectory is for geeks with books.Not rifleman".Humbeling to say the least.So go forth with the better bullet of the two(the 180 kills far better than the 150)and learn.I am still in grade school.See ya in class.
Mark and the dog.

[MasterCaster]

flatfish....."Not an insult to your shooting skills.But someone fully capable of applying a flat trajectory does not ask which bullet do i use questions.)"

I wasnt asking what bullet to use :grin: I was asking for opinions on the different grain rounds. I have always been very confident in the 150gr rounds. The reason I was asking is after I changed somone looked up the ballistics and didnt agree that I was doing the right thing. I thought I was but began to have some doubts and thought I would ask here and get some different opinions on the 2 rounds. I think now I made the right choice. Now back to class so I can learn more.

I agree 'ZZZZzzzzzz' seems like everyone likes the heavier round. Kinda odd to have so many people agree on one thread!

Thanx everone for giving your opinions, I think Ill stick with the 180gr rounds and try and take down a big fat cow on the 16th :grin:

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[ 11-08-2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: MasterCaster ]

[Flying Roast Beef]

Hey Mark (Flatfish), Bring lots of fives and paper plates. I want in on that. I sight in on one inch dots. Then move one inch high at 100 yards. Using my loads in my rifle, I'll take your bet all day long sir.

[tailchaser]

My personal opinion is use the 180 for sure for elk. As for deer I look at the terrain I'll be hunting in before I load my rifle with different bullets. (I handload and have the ballistics for every load on what the trajectory will do where my crosshairs are at now) For blacktails I prefer the 150 gr. bullet for long shots across canyons, and mulies I go with the 165 gr.. It can be confusing and maybe a bit overkill but I like certain loads for different game so I tried to get the best of both worlds. If you want one load for everything I would get used to the 180 gr., but the 165 is a close second. Try both and see how your rifle likes them. All rifles shoot differently, find the one that works in yours.

tc

[mudsucker]

Hey FLATFISH i'm with flying roast beef on the shooting, i have done alot of shooting at long ranges and i would come out ahead on that deal but your right for the most part alot of people wouldn't. If your going to shoot those ranges you have to practice at those ranges and practice alot if you don't you should not be shooting that far...I use 180's in both my 30 06 and 300 weatherby mag.

[Flatfish]

Master caster,
sorry bout the tangent.Sometimes the train starts,and it is tough to stop this windbag once it gets started.Fer what its worth,the bullet itself is much more important than its weight.Where the bullet is placed is paramount.Yall probably know that.That said 180(all else is equal)will drive deeper and kill better.They aint cheap,but the Winchester "Fail Safe" is the best elk stuff on shelves today.I reload and as far as performance is concerned,it dont get any better.
Roast beef,
I sight in on dots too.Used to shoot benchrest informally(read I was stomped on every weekend by the good shots)and I can lay tehm in there too.But I am refering to shooting from a field position.If you can hit a paper plate 9 out of 10 times from a sit,I may have met you already at the gun club.95% of s******* cant do it so it is a safe bet.When I shot a lot 500 on a calm day was in my realm.Now 350 is a long way for me.
Mark and the dog.

[ 11-08-2002, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]

['ZZZZzzzzzz']

FF - Your comment of using the 180 Grain Bullet to take a big fat cow hits close to home for me. That is exactly what I did this year on 10/23. 1, 180 Grain Bullet at 350 yards in the top of the shoulder damaging the bottom of the heart. Just remember a drop of 8" at 300 yards and 22" at 400 yards. I prefer to get a closer shot and I won't shoot beyond 400 yards. But you can be very deadly. The paper plate scenario is an interesting one thought -

Z's-

FF,
I'll do the 350 yard challenge with my semi auto, peep sighted 308. I usualy (no or steady light breeze) put them into a 18" steel circle at 400 yds. over 75% of the time.

How is your fish eating dog doing?

[kenai]

Dang, now I gotta try this challenge. My shoulder is starting to twitch already. I shoot a 300 ultra mag with handload 180 gr spitzer boatails. Just getting started with this rifle and so far I'm impressed. "trajectory is for geeks with books" maybe, but trajectory is also a law of physics and the amount of shooting it would take to get the memory muscle working at multiple ranges is hard to imagine. Maybe the navy can afford that kind of ammo but I sure cant.

[Flatfish]

The dog is good Keta,thanks for asking.
Sounds like some of you are pretty fair shots.Ya don't need to burn too much powder learning(muscle memory)dry firing does the job quite well.Wind is much tougher than range.
Speed is nice but diminishing returns are met at various points.A heavier bullet will almost every time pass a lighter bullet(retains velocity better)given same design.My 250s pass 200s about at 300 yards and hit harder all the way.Efficient bullets are one of the best things a shooter can have at extreme range(700 yards looong but 900 or so is getting extreme for most folks with an educated trigger finger).Ever notice all of the 1000 and 1800 meter matches are won by heavy for caliber bullets.220 grain 308s and 300 gr 338s ruled the roost for years.Now folks are making bullets in smaller calibers(less recoil,better groups)and there is a shift.It is not complete but will happen in the next few years.
Basic as it is wind and trajectory are all functions of time of flight and ballistic coefficient.Yeah a high barometer and temp change will make a difference.So does altitude.But in the real world,they dont make a big enough difference,in hunting conditions,to matter.What matters is a persons ability to hit the target with great certainty.If you have measured your skills then you know your limitations.If you have not(reading how much drop a bullet has,or wind drift out of a book)checked your gun at the actual range you intend to fire then,you have no real idea of where it will hit or even if you can make the hit.My 338 with hunting loads is 59" low at 525 yards, a lot lower than any ballistics table says it should be.From a bench at that distance I can shoot groups in the 3-4" range.From a field rest,I am lucky to hit a quarter of the time.I have put my time in to discover this.If you have then fine.If you have not then go out and shoot at measured distances.I am not implying that you all can or cannot make a long hit(for 95% of the population 350 yards is a luck thing.I don't like to rely on luck to cripple ot kill.)maybe you can.If you know your limits,you will do well.It is either a yes or no thing,If that little voice in your head is talking to you and saying"Hmmm looks OK" or "Hmmm looks too long".Listen to it.If you have no little voice,you probably have no business betting me on the 350 yard deal.
If you have not practiced in the last 6 months and shoot less than 50 rounds of live ammo a year,please call me.I will supply the plates.I can use the money.
Mark and the dog.

[ 11-08-2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]

[MasterCaster]

This thread has brought up a new question....How far of a shot would you take on an elk?

I dont think I would ever take a shot at any more than 350 or 400 yrds. At that I dont think I would take to many shots at even 300. Almost all my shots have been at 200 or less. I just cant see myself taking shots that far away. To many variables to go wrong and cause a bad shot and a wounded animal.

If I had a good solid rest and a standing broad side shot I may take the shot at 400 yrds but everything would have to fall just right. Elk are very tough animals and can take a good hit and still run off. A member of my party once shot a big cow twice in the front shoulder/chest (lungs and liver hit) at less than 100yrds with a .338, nosler partition rounds and she still ran over 100yrds uphill before she stoped and had to have another round put in her to drop her.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Norm]

I use nothing but well built 180's anymore from blacktail to moose when I'm rifle hunting with my 06. I've had a couple of the fancy "ballistic tip" style 165's fragment really bad, but never the good old fashion round nose style 180's . I like the Nosler partition and Remmington Core-Lokt Soft Point's the best. They tend to stay together and damage less meat. I used some off the shelf 180 Nosler partitions for a moose hunt a few years ago. I don't think they were any better than the Remmington Core-Lokt Soft Point's and didn't group as well.

[Flatfish]

The range thing is a good question.I had the voice in my head tell me it was too far.I held shot and crippled a deer.Hit her 3 times poorly with the 338 before finally getting her where I should have.It was a bad morning.I figured it was long.My little voice was right.My little voice will override my stupid brain from here on out.The kill shot by the way was a gimme, according to my little voice.The problem in stating that everyone should hold fire til they are xyz yards from you is exactly why this conversation takes place.Some folks shoot and practice dry firing a lot and can manage shots that others who are less committed to the art could only dream of.I am a mortal and 400 yards is pretty much too far.If you can then fine.But prove it to yourself (hey I don't care how well you can shoot,I quit shooting competition a long time ago) but if you think for 1 second that you can BUY your way into riflery you are wrong.I quit because it was very time consuming and expensive to boot.Accurate rifles and flat shooting cartridges are only as good as the person directing them.
Mark and the dog.