Bullet Choice

[ZACKYDAD]

What type of bullet (grain)is a good all around choice for deer?Also what type for elk?I certainly don't want over kill,but do feel you have an obligation to put the animal down with one shot.I would like all the hunters on this forum to please respond.Also what kind of bullets (Federal's, Remington's,etc.)?Do you prefer hand loads? [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

What caliber?

Usualy use a bullet that is in the mid to upper weight for the caliber. I personly feel that .243/6mm with 90-105 grain bullets are the minimum for deer. 7mm with 165-175 grain for elk.

I use a .270 (130gr-140gr) or .284 (145) for deer and a 300 WinMag (185gr) or 338-06 (225gr) for elk.

I prefer Swift "A" frame bullets if I can get them. I don't like Nozzler bullets.

[Firedog]

Like Keta said what Caliber? I shoot a .280 and use 140 Grain Nosler Partition for Deer. I am hunting Elk this year with an 30/06 and using 180 grain partitions. When I pick up my .300 Weatherby (paid for just need to go get it :smile: ) I will also use 180 grain bullets possibly 200 for elk and I will decide on which ones after I work up some loads for it.

Bullets make a diference in how fast of kill it is but Shooting skill and bullet placement are more important than bullet brand. Just my .02

Firedog,
Try the 200 gr bullets. If your rifling will stablize them you'll like them.

[Firedog]

Keta, Thanks I will . I was on the Acurate Forums page and theyt were saying that . 300 shots the 200 real well. I am looking forward to picking the gun up. I am also thinking about loading up some of those A frames everything I have read makes that look like a heck of a bullet. OK I am off elk hunting now, talk to everyone in a week. :smile:

[ 11-07-2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: firedog ]

[MasterCaster]

Ok I have a question.....I dont want to take up space on this post so Ill just make a new one.
advantages and disadvantages between 150 and 180 gr bullets.....

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Firedog]

Master Caster, Again this depends on Caliber. Say in a 30/06 the 150 is a faltter shooting higher velocity bullet. The 180 isnt as flat shooting but carries more Foot lbs for a little better nock down power on a bigger animal, more weight to drive through bone and heavier tissue. I prefer a happy medium in my bullets something that shoots flat and has good velocity but also has the ommph to knock down what I am hunting. I use diferent bullet weights for diferent animals. Lighter for deer and heavier for elk. Just my preference, you can kill most any animal with a light or bullet just have to have proper bullet placement.

[RogueFishr]

For elk, I use a 338 Winchester Mag with handloaded 225gr Partitions. For deer and antelope I use a 165gr boatail. I have had good luck with the partitions and elk at varrying distances.

RF

[Gus Orviston]

For a deer rifle I shoot a 25.06 with a 100gr Nosler

Deer Pistol, 260gr Nosler Partition in a .454 , or 250 44.

Keta, curious why you don't like Nosler , I have never heard anything negative wrt to their quality.

My only concern is that their Partition Ammo for pistols is too expensive, nearly .90 a round! You can buy the made up Ammo for 1.10 in the Winchester Supreme. For some reason they are catoring to Winchester...

Anybody else hunting with pistols?

[1eyed]

Deer - I will use a .270 with 140 or 150gr Nosler Partition. Sometimes depending on the terrain I will use a 30-30 lever action with iron sites.

Elk - I use a Weatherby .340 Mag with a 250gr. This combo shoots great and has the nock down power needed.

[blacktail]

What I mostly use:

Deer - .270 with 130 grain

Elk - .338 mag with 250 grains

Mike

Mastercaster,
What caliber and round? Inertia, sectional density (both are good for penetration) are better with the heavier bullet. Velosity will be less (usualy) with a heavier bullet,

A 150 would be a bad choice for a 300 mag but a good one for a 308.

Gus,
Hit a heavy bone with a Partition and you hava a 2/3 weight solid, The Balistic tip is a remake of the old Silver Tip and it works like a holow point. Nozzler has good quality control but I don't like the concept. A Swift "A" Frame doesn't loose the front section as easly as the Partition.
What make of 454 do you have? The Freedom Arms revolvers are the most accurate I have ever shot!

[fishin]

I have use many of the "non-premiums" from speer and hornady and had good success. I enjoy tinkering with handloads so doing a lot of paper punching/target shooting with premiums was too expensive.

But a couple of years ago I found out that you could buy factory seconds from Nosler for a big discount from regular prices. Yee Haw :grin: . They are supposed to be only cosmetic blemishes and by looking at andwieghing them I can not often find the reason why they were pulled off the factory line. I have had good luck with the Uncoated Partion Gold in my 30-378 Weatherby Mag. They are one of the combined technology children of the Winchester/Nosler partnership. It is a Nosler Partion with a steel insert in the tail section to hold the lead rear section in place.

[MasterCaster]

Keta.....I posted another thread about it because I didnt want to take up space on someone elses thread with my questions :grin: but its in 30.06

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Gus Orviston]

keta,
We experienced some poor weight retention with Nosler partitions and now shoot the ballistic tips in the 25s. The results have been perfect with these and a lot of shots are in the 300yd range that we have taken.

My 454 is a FA premiere grade, 7 1/2 barrel. I have both the pisotl and rifle porting on it. It is really an amazing pistol. it is a near work of art from right from the factory. I have a burris 1.5-4x on it...wish I never did that though. I can't stop the scope from moving and have gone round and round with Burris trying to get the rings to hold. Off the bags I can shoot a 5 shot 3" group at 100yds. The load I like is a copy of the Winchester Supreme, 34gr H110 and the 260g nosler partition...if I can't get the Noslers I will load Hornaday XTP/Mag or HP/XTP...the latter has thinner jacketed walls and concerns me a bit, so i don't hunt with it.

My brother shoots a Super Redhawk 454 with some trigger work. It holds a pretty nice pattern as well.

My 44 is also a SRH, with a trigger kit, super fun to shoot, and I load the Elmer Keith 250gr leadcast with H110 or 2400. H110 leaves the guna bit cleaner. I always hate running ot of ammo with this gun, it is so darn fun to shoot---I often won't share it. :grin: I mounted a red dot and use this gun when I know the shooting is sub 75yds or so.

[Tilla]

My experience with Nosler Partition has been good. My 7mm likes Federal Premium and shoots it well. Nothing has walked away, Pigs, Blacktail, Pronghorn, Mulies, Elk and Moose. Nothin' but Sausage!

[DAB]

In my 300 Win Mag I use 180 gr.Sierra- gameking or pro-hunter For deer and elk- If I use a preamium bullet I use 165 Gr
In my 264 Win Mag I use 140 Gr. hornady on deer size game and 140 Gr Noz. Par. for elk ..
In my 243 I use 100 gr. sierra pro-hunter for deer and coyotes.
In my 22/250 I use a 63 Gr semi point for coyotes and have killed 1 deer with 1 shot with this bullet, and 52 grain bullets for sage rats.

I have close to 450--- 55 grain win. PSP bullets in .224 any one can have if they want them e-mail me on this.

All of the above are what I use, for what it is worth. Don't mean that they are the best , just what I use.
DAB

[KingFisher85]

For me its my new Ruger KM77RFP MKII 308 win with a 22 inch barrel shooting hot hand loads 165 gr bullet. I shot my elk over 275 yards away and she did not even move. I also shot 2 deer with it. Both did not even move.

I do like my Remington 150 gr bullets that I just got this year for deer hunting. Not to bad when you get 5 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.

For the 22 mag I have some 30 gr fed rounds. I get better then 1/2 groups at 100 yards with them loads. Killer on coyotes and stuff like that.

For my winchester model 1300 12 ga shotgun with a 22 inch fully rifled barrel, shooting Remington premier copper solid 1 oz holow point magnum sabot slug. it shoots really good groupsing at 50 and 100 yards. Its hard to say how big the groupings are cause them slugs put one big hole in the paper!

Just my 2 cents

[ 11-11-2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: KingFisher85 ]

[Crashin' Bait]

For my .30-06 I use handloaded 165 gr or 168 gr SPBT from Sierra or Hornady. It'll put the deer down but, you have to watch where you shoot em'. Lots of meat loss due to blood shot (atleast that's my experience).

Gus O.: How do you keep from leading up the barrel of your Ruger SRH while shooting cast bullets? Do the slugs have gas checks?

[ 11-11-2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Crashin' Bait ]

[SeanD]

Handloaded 150 grain partitions for deer in 30.06 and 180 grain partitions for elk in 300 win mag. Some times i use the 30.06 (150's) for elk too, but i generally like to use the heavier bullets. Id rather use a 150 gr partiton in 30.06 then a 300 mag with factory non-premium bullets. partitions get a bad rap based on the retained bullet weight. who cares, they werent designed for weight retention. They are designed to kill animals, and they do it very well. i use the seconds too.

[skein]

Here's the 200gr Nosler partition I took my elk with this weekend. Ending weight was 122 grains. Spine shot at about 120 yds. The rifle is a Sako 300 H&H mag that I've owned for 43 years. The load is 67 grs of H4831 pushing the 200 gr bullet about 2700 fps. I've used that load on moose, bears, caribou, and elk. Don't try to buy this rifle from me. :grin:



Very, very little peripheral damage. The first shot (pass through) took out one lung and damaged the other. The second shot (standing broadside) took out the spine right at the hump.

Looks like I don't have to starve this winter - or live off my wife's deer.

Skein

[Megabites]

Boy did you open a can of worms.

I would say that to answer the question properly we need to look at a few other issues. First what is the average shoot distance to your targets? Then what type of deer (Blacktails, mulies or whitetials). Then what I try to do is find the bullet velocity (mesured not calculated), weight and cal.. Then run a ballistics test to find the happy medium for Knockdown power and for balistics. There is a free program out there called Point-Blank that is good and it includes two important features. First it will calculate your point Blank Range for the rifle and load. That is how far your range will be for say a 4" kill zone. Next it gives the Taylor knowdown scale for the load this will help to gauge the size of animal you want to take down. Lastly take all of this information and decide on a bullet that will expand but not explode on impact.

I know too much homework but that is the only way I know of.

I shoot blacktail deer at 100 yards or less so my load is a .30 cal 125 gr. at 2350 FPS. I use a Nosler Bal Tip for better balistics and beter slow speed expansion. The guns effective range for deer is 300 yards but ballistics are usable for 200 yards and a 4" Kill zone.

For Elk most shoots under 200 yards I shoot a 300 UM .30 cal 180 gr. at 3350FPS. Bullet is a Barnes XBT. Again nice comprimise between expansion and ballistics. Gives a 4" kill zone at 297 yards plenty of knockdown power but not overkill.

The Elk gun would be serious overkill for Blacktail and would likely go staight through with out expanding. I personally think that the 7mm Ultra Mag is a worthless cal. for hunting. Bullets are too small and to fast to do there intended job. Sure you jet great ballistics but that only helps when your shooting paper. Knockdown power is the name of the game.

[Washington Hunter]

megabites, I don't shoot a 7mm Ultra, but I think it would be a great cartridge for both deer and elk. Shoot a 175 grain at the same speed as your 300 Ultra shoots that 180 grain Barnes...what would the difference be? Surely not much. And if it's useless for hunting, then wouldn't the old 7mm Rem. Mag. be just about as useless? Tell me you're joking, no way you could be serious, right?

[SeanD]

7mm too small a caliber? does that mean that the 7 rem mag and 280 rem are too small diameter for elk? Too fast? use a faster opening bullet like a partition instead of the x bullet. Lots of elk killed with 7mm bullets. I agree that velocity and bullet weight arent the only important factors, and i think the taylor knock out values are a more accurate way to determine killing power because it takes into account bullet diameter too. But that is still just "on paper", in real life the 7mm is one of the most common elk calibers out there, and they kill a lot of elk.

[Megabites]

My comment on the 7mm Ultra Mag was just for the ultra mag. The 7mm Rem Mag is a fine load. However the only reason to go to an ultramag ins to increase velocify and in this case the velocify is to great for the bullet cal. The bullets will just poke a hole through with no expansion and little exension of energy. On the point Knock Down power is the expense of energy on the target. I did the math for a 550gr. broadhead traviling at 270 fps and the energy at release is 89fpe. Compare this to a modist load of 125gr .308 bullet at 2350fpe which has an energy release at 100 yrds of 1292fpe. Now a .308 bullet that expands properly will have a slightly lower surface area that an arrow but not enough to make up the difference in kenetic energy. Hence more energy is expelled on the target giving more Knock Down power.

The point is that an arrow or a bullet that does not expend its energy on the animal and passes through the target is not as effective as one that expends its energy on the target.

Don't believe me then drop a baseball on your foot from 4 feet in the air then have someone hit you with a fastball. Hurts a lot more doesn't it.

I posted this in the other tread on humane hunting as well.

megabites,
Try a feather at 100 mph and a baseball at 10 mph.

I would rather have a .30 caliber, but a 175gr 7mm bullet has better sectional density than a 180gr .308. I would probably use a 200gr in the 300 Ultra Mag if I saw the need for one.

Skein,
Did you find those "failed" bullets under the hide? I never find any of mine as they leave a large exit hole :grin: Glad you got some meat :smile:

SeanD,
In my opinion a 7mm (7-08 or 7X57) should be considered the minium for elk. I've killed more than a few elk with my .270 but I would rather use a heavier bullet than 150gr. A 175 gr 7mm works much better. Not as well as a 250gr .338, but they do kill elk well.

[ 11-13-2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Megabites]

Keta,

The 180gr has penty of energy for Elk out to over 800 yards and will still expand properly at over 1000 yds. The XBT will expand properly at 1600fps as a minimum and 3200fpe as a max. The 200gr would be required for Brown Bear, Grizzley or buffalo only.

That puts my minimum shot for Elk at 50 yard due to expansion and maximum 4" kill zone or point blank range at 300 yards. But no range limits on knock down out to 800 yards. However I never would take a shot over 400 yrds.

[Megabites]

Keta,
With the 200 grain bullet I lose to much yardage in a 4"PBR and gain nothing in return. 180gr. is plenty of bullet - see previous post.

[SeanD]

Keta, we all know everyone has a different opinion about the minimum caliber for elk. I dont think there is a "minimum" at a certain caliber, but the bigger calibers work better. i know a guy that has killed elk for years (and lots of them) with a 25.06. Think we could convince him he doesnt pack enough gun? Personally, i think way too much emphasis is put on kinetic energy, and i think heavier and bigger diameter bullets are the way to go. 35 Whelen anyone?

megabites, i just cant seem to get it. A 30 caliber bullet at 3350 is great, but a 284 caliber at 3500fps is worthless? Is there an actual specific velocity that bullets work great, then you add 150 fps and they are worthless? So a bullet works at 3150 fps and not at 3250? Why do some people praise (not me) the 22-250 for use on deer because it kills them lightning quick at 3500+ fps? different bullets, yes, but is a 7mm partition not going to expand at 3500 fps? This thread is about bullets and this is why i like the partition. It will most definatley expand, at any realistic velocity, and still keep the rear of the bullet intact. it may lose the front section of the bullet entirely, leaving only the base to penetrate, but thats ok, because this causes serious tissue damage. And that is what knock down power is about.
From noslers reloading guide #4 "partition- can withstand ultra-high impact velocity from overbore wildcat rounds at close range."

I hope not boring anyone :shocked: ,but ill go on. Knock down power is not the transfer of energy to the target, at least not according to taylor's scale. Although i do think that is a factor in how well a bullet kills, the size of the wound channel and the amount of tissue damage are what is really important. Not finding a bullet beacause it left the animal is not necesarrilt a good thing. it is as far as blood, but not as far as tissue damage. If the A frame bullet or the X bullet laid up under the hide on the other side of the animal, then it would have transferred all of its kinetic energy to the animal. The momentum is what carries the bullet through the animal. If the bullet looses momentum it is because it mushrooms to a larger diameter, creating a bigger wound channel, or because it has poor weight retention. If you find the bullet laid up under the hide, it had just enough weight retention/momentum to carry it only as far as it can possible be effective. 100 percent of the kinetic energy was transferred to the animal, and in the case of the large mushroom- a bigger wound channel creates more damage, and in the case of the low weight retention (partition compared to A frame or X bulley), the lost momentum from the violent expansion of the front of the bullet results in lots of tissue damage, and the rear still penatrates enough.

[ 11-13-2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: SeanD ]

[Megabites]

SeanD,
According to the techs at Nosler I spoke with the Ballistic tip bullets will expand at more than 1600fps and stay intact up to 3200fps. That is the differance in the usability of the gun. The 7mm round will not slow down enough under 150 yards to keep the bullet from fragmenting. However the 300 round slowed down to 3200 by the 50 yard mark. This to me is more practical.

As far as the 175gr 7mm goes. If you are going to shoot that much wieght why not shoot 180gr. 200fps faster and pickup another 40 yards of 4"PBR and increase diameter as well.

I'm not here to sell my concepts it is just my opinion. But I do think everyone should research the weapon and how it preforms. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "I don't know why I missed - it was in the cross hairs"

[SeanD]

The ballistic tip is not designed to stay intact at ultra high velocities. They are also not designed for elk. The partition is.

SeanD,
Some have to put down what others have to justify what they have. A 175gr 7mm bullet will do anything that a 180gr .308 will. I do prefer the .30, but it isn't for any good reason. Megabites uses 160 gr 7mm data (apples and oranges) to reinforce his misconceptions.

Megabites,
You don't loose much velocity (velocity isn't all you need or want anyway) and you gain penetration and wind resistance with a 200gr bullet. I have never had to shoot at a game animal at over 400 yards. Why are you concerned about 600 yard or more shots? A ant could fart and throw you off enough at this range so that you cripple what your shooting.

Balistic Tips vaporize when they hit something at high velocities.

[ 11-13-2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Megabites]

On the contrary. The 180gr Nosler Ballistic tip is designed for Elk. The tip helps to epand the bullet at slower speeds. Nosler rates it at 1600 fps vs. the partion at 2000fps. What that would mean is that it will expand properly farthure down range. Now with that being said as I stated before I would not ever take a shot over 400 yards but what I do gain it the better flight properties of the bullet. This allows me to be more accurate inside my effective range. As far as penitration goes 180gr has plenty of energy to get the job done so why sacrifice the flatter shot of the 180gr for the 200gr? Now wind is a factor and yes the heavier bullet will deflect less. But for me every shot has gravity to fight but not every shot has wind.

1600fps-2800fps anything over this and the bullet will vaporize. At what range does your 300 ultra drop into this range? I would bet that it's in the range where over 75% of elk are shot. If you are going to use a ultra high velocity round use tougher bullets, Barns X, Winchester Fail Safe, or Swift A Frame to name the ones that I consider strong enough.

Gravity is (mostly) constant, wind is (always) variable. I would want to lessen the variables especially with long range shooting.

[ 11-13-2002, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Washington Hunter]

megabites, don't tell me you're one of those guys who believes the myth that if a bullet is going too fast it will go right through an animal without expanding? The opposite is true...the faster a bullet is going the more it will expand. I've heard that same thing said about the 7mm Rem. Mag. I just don't understand where people get that idea.

[nerta]

Megabites heres some input the 175gr bullet was the orig, 7mm rem. mag heavy bullet from the factory. 154gr was the light orig. factory bullet. I'm interested to know what reloading man. you are using. I thought that the ultra mag was the factory equiv. of the 7mm shooting times westerner. Of the five manuals that i have the fastest i can find for the 160gr. is 3264 using 77 grs. of imr 7828. Have you conographed this load that runs at 3500 if so i would be interested to know what it is and would like to try it. what manual is it in? :grin:

Washington Hunter,
I've seen 130 gr .270 bullets go completly through a deer at 10 yards and not open up.

Nerta
Thanks, you know how old my reloading manuals are.

[Washington Hunter]

Keta, well then that same bullet placed in the exact same spot at the same angle at 300 yards instead of 10 would not open up either! It all depends on the type of bullet and if it hits any bone. If you shoot a deer between the ribs, no that bullet may not open up because there is not enough resistance. To say a bullet will expand more at a lower velocity is just ludicrous.

[Washington Hunter]

By the way, I wonder what happened to the original poster? I was waiting to hear what cartridge he is using before I gave him my opinion on bullets. I will say that I like to use the same weight bullet out of a particular catridge for deer and elk. That way I don't have to worry about adjusting the scope in the middle of the hunting season when switching to a different weight bullet. I generally like to use a bullet that is medium-heavy to heavy for the caliber. With my 270 I use 150 grain bullets for both deer and elk. With a 30-06 I most likely would use 180's, although I may consider a 165 in a premium bullet such as the Swift A-Frame or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. 7mm Magnums I would use 175's and 300 Magnums, 200 grain. Now, with the short action cartridges you almost have to go lighter to get decent velocity. With the 7mm/08 140 or 150, and 308 150's or 165's.

[boater]

for elk i use a 460 weatherby with handloaded 510 grain solids, for deer i use a 33-378 j/k.

Washington Hunter,
No bone hit.

Megabites,
Your velocity is about 100 fps high and who wants to carry a 26" barrel in the woods.
The facts on the 300 Ultra Mag

Megabites and Nerta.
It looks like I might be able to make 416 Dakota brass out of 300 Ultra Mag brass :smile:

300 Ultra Mag and 300-378

[ 11-13-2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[KingFisher85]

boater, is that all you use . I shoot a custom built $7,000 dollar 53 pound 50 cal sniper rifle shooting something like 650+gr. Bullet. :shocked:
if someone would upload the picture for me I would show you all. No joke

KF85,
I do own three 375's and two 416's.
two in 375 H&H and one 375-8mm Rem, one 416 Rem, and one 416 Dakota.
I would use any of the 375's for elk but the 416's are too big.

[ 11-13-2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[KingFisher85]

Thats all over kill
the 338win mag is almost to much for elk but just perfect. The 300win mag is killer on elk. Now why do people use such big calibers like the 375? Its not even good for deer.

[Megabites]

I called both Nosler and Barnes and both the Barnes X bullets and the Nolser Balistic tip are designed to open at 1600fps. Barnes standard fragmentation test is rated at 2400fps but in questioning further they say the bullet will hold up to 3200fps. This is also the top range for the Nosler bullet. I must not have been clear before. 1600fps is the min. for the bullet to expand and 3200fps is the max for the bullet not to fragment. I lumped both of these into "proper expansion". Now to be fare the bullet does need to hit something firm enough to make it expand. Most of this thread has focused on elk and note that this is not the load I use for deer. I believe I went over that allready.

[SeanD]

[ 11-13-2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: SeanD ]

[Megabites]

Washington Hunter,

Here is the break down.

A 175 gr. bullet is not very common for the 7mm. Most people use 160gr or lighter for the best ballistics. So a 160gr. 7mmUM muzzle velocity is about 3500fps that puts the bullet at over 150 yards until it slows down enough to expand properly (3200fps). Not a usable deer round as most shots are under 100 yards. The 175gr bullet at 3150fe does work at 50 yards or better however you lose 40 yards in you 4" kill zone or point blank range and still have to shoot over 50 yrds.

As far a for Elk the round is a bit light but still good for out to 600 yards however you still have the same problems as listed about.

I should be clear here that I do not use my 300UM at 3350fps for deer or while in the brush for Elk. It is designed to be a 50yrds or better gun. For deer I shoot a .308 cal. 125gr BT at 2350 in a different gun. I have a 300UM round at 3150fps for Elk in the brush so I choose the bullet for the type of hunting I will be doing.

I know the next response - why not slow down the 7mm. Simple at slower speeds you lose energry and with the smaller bullet you need the velocity to make up for density. Plus you lose the main reason you got the gun for flatter shots.

I still think the 7MM Ultra Mag is a useless hunting riffle. But if you want to shoot paper it will knock your socks off.

175gr 7mm bullets uncommon? Not where I shoot. I even use them for some loads in my 7mm-08.

You also ought to take advantage of your case capacity and use the 200gr bullet. They have a better sectional density and penetrate better.

KF85,
Where I hunted blacktail deer there were varmints that we used 338's and 375's to kill. Often within 15 minutes of killing a deer there were brown bear trying to take your meat.
Every one that I knew used .338's and .375's.

I would rather use a .375 than a 7mm mag because there is much less bloodshot meat. A .375 H&H will shoot a 270gr bullet as fast as an '06 does with a 180gr. My .375-8mmRem will equal .300 Win balistics with these bullet weights. It does recoil a bit more :shocked:
I can also use the .375 on anything, somethiing you can't say about a .30 caliber.

I got the .416's for hunting brown bear in heavy brush and before I got sick a trip to Africa for buffalo and plains game.

Now that I am back in the lower 48 I use a .284Win for deer and either a .300Win or a .338-06 for elk.

[ 11-14-2002, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]