DEER & ELK HUNTERS MUST ACT NOW!

Maverick Maxcat · 05-26-2005, 08:57 PM

The Game Commision is adopting new Management Objectives at their June meeting. EVERYONE needs to write them, and Director Ball, as soon as possible. Calls and e-mails are also needed.

I'm leaving town for a week as of tomorrow, and I don't have time for the long version, so here's what you need to say, in the short version.

There are two carying capacities to each unit. One is the biological carrying capacity, or what the space, forage, etc will support. The second is the social carrying capacity, or what the people in the unit will tolerate in terms of crop damage, yard damage, etc. The Management Objectives should be set at the lessor of these carrying capacities. The current objectives are much lower in most cases. One of their excuses is that "current objectives are not being met, so it doesn't do any good to raise them". This means that they are failing in their management of the game populations, and they will look even worse if the objectives are raised. Current populations should have NO effect on setting the population levels that SHOULD be there! Tell them to set MO's at the carrying capacity.

Predation is the #1 cause of big game mortality in Oregon. Cougar levels are well over 5000 animals, with some estimates over 7000. A reasonable population is 2000 cougars. Since each cat kills at least 1 big game animal a week, the 3-5000 extra cats are killing 156,000-260,000 big game animals more than they should EACH YEAR! This is the reason game populations are low and dropping. The Game Commission and ODFW has the legal responsability to manage the game populations for the maximum benefit of Oregonians, shown in 496.012. This includes eliminating predators. They have the ability to lower predator populations without any studies, permissions, or anything. They cannot eliminate predators, and must eventually determine a longterm population, but for now they need to lower predator numbers until game populations recover. Tell them to implement significant predator control NOW.

Hunter numbers are a major force in game distribution. When there are too many hunters on public lands, all the animals are driven to private land, and usually stay there for the season. Two things need to happen. First, tag numbers must tied to the number of animals availible. I propose issueing one tag for each buck or bull present in the post-season counts. It is a self adjusting system. When there are more animals, tag numbers go up. When animal numbers drop, tag numbers drop as well. Tag numbers will drop for now, but the hunts will be better quality, and tag numbers will rise as game populations recover. The second change needs to be with the archery tags. some units are draw for rifle, but general entry for archery. This leads to hunters unsuccessful in the rifle draw buying a bow tag and hunting the unit anyway. Instead, all draw units should be drawn for all weapons. Unsucessful hunters can then hunt any general tag units with any weapon. Tell them to make tag numbers equal to the number of animals available from post season counts, and make all units draw for all weapons.

The next subject requires a letter to your congressmen as well as the Game Comission, because only the legislature can change penalties for crimes. Poachers are thieves, stealing from everyone else in the state. They are thought to take as many animals as legitimate hunters each year. The penalties should be set at a minimum of $1000 for any big game animal, and at fair market value for any big specimens. For example, a 300 pt bull elk is worth about $4500, while a 350 pt bull is worth about $9000. A set schedule of values can be set each year for each species, and levied in all poaching cases without discretion of the judges. ALL items used in the commission of the crime should also be forfeited, right down to their sox and skivies. Turn them out of jail in a paper diaper. If we make it painful enough, poaching will stop! Tell ODFW and the Congressmen that we want poaching to stop, and stop now.

I have spent countless hours serving on the local Management Objective Committee, talking with ODFW biologists, testifying to the Game Commission, writing reports, attending tag allocation meetings, and alerting congressmen and the media. The thing politicians say they respond to most is contact from individuals. Form letters do not count. If you care about the sorry state of Oregon's big game, and want to see it improve, take a few minutes and contact ODFW and the legislature about these issues bnow, before the next meeting.

Thanks for your help,

Mark Rubbert, aka Maverick Maxcat

Bendman · 05-31-2005, 05:41 AM

Those cougar numbers are staggering.

I have often wondered what Mother Nature did before �we� were here to �fix� everything.

I wish I could remember exactly when it was that I really started noticing that the Deer populations were dropping. Within the last ten years I have noticed it the most. I used to spend a lot of time around Silver Lake just messing around and those herds of hundreds of deer are GONE! Just like they fell off the face of the earth.

Mark do you still want me to post the long version you gave me? Sorry I didn�t get it done but for some reason my computer is having a problem with my scanner. Don�t know what that�s all about they must have got into a fight a while ago because they have been feuding for a while now. Let me know if you still want it and I�ll take it to the office and do it there.

baltz526 · 05-31-2005, 05:59 AM

until the current laws are changed we hunters need to spend time hunting cougar, not just buying tags to keep in our wallets durring deer and elk seasons.

Salmo trutta · 05-31-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Those cougar numbers are staggering.

I have often wondered what Mother Nature did before �we� were here to �fix� everything.

There were wolves coast to coast and the great bear roamed all the country west of the Mississippi. Bison herds numbered in the millions and antelope thrived. The Nez Perce has written and oral record that says that over 4,000 bighorn sheep lived in Hells Canyon and also prospered in the Ochocos, and Columbia river gorge. Sage grouse were not in decline before "we" came and the passenger pigeon and dodo bird were also around. The Corp of Discovery documented mountain goats and pleny of deer and elk along with Salmon so thick traveling up rivers that you could walk across them without touching bottom. AND THEN "WE" CAME TO "FIX" and "MANAGE" everything!!!

BrianMaguire · 05-31-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Those cougar numbers are staggering.

I have often wondered what Mother Nature did before �we� were here to �fix� everything.

Wolves ate the cougars or ran them out. Basically it all boils down to cows, the biggest biological disaster in the west. Dam the rivers for the irrigation of alfalfa, kill the wolves off to save the calves, graze the winter range, shoot the "fence busting" animals, stop the fires, etc. And the loony, cry baby, ranchers of the west want to further restrict your hunting (look at the Grant county letter to the ODFW commission). The poor rancher, please shed a tear for him and how hard it is to make a living.

Bendman · 05-31-2005, 02:36 PM

I also have always thought that cows are a huge part of the wildlife numbers and I still do. But Maverick pointed something out to me that made me think a little. Those cows have been here for a LONG time. Is it just that number of cows are just now catching up? I don�t know. I think in the mean time something has to be done about the cougars. It�s kinda like the Seal thing when there is lots and lots of salmon no one really notices but when there is not too many then everyone is in a uproar.

bullslayer · 05-31-2005, 02:57 PM

Wow! Pretty good takes on a bunch of volitile subjects.I've been saying and noticing for years how the cougar has impacted the deer herds especially and same with the poachers.I couldn't agree more.
I do the bowhunting thing your talking about when I don't draw a rifle tag.I have grown to be very fond of bowhunting, but not very successful.I do think bowhunting effects elk harvest more than deer though. It's a hard decision for me to make whether to make bowhunting a draw or not.I could be slitting my own throat.I can't stand not going east every year.I use that time to learn more about the area's I hunt and more about hunting period.I'll have to think about a solution to the archery/rifle dilemma that's fair to everyone?? :whazzup:
Thanks for opening eyes and ears. Kris.

sunshinefisherman · 05-31-2005, 03:17 PM

Quote:

until the current laws are changed we hunters need to spend time hunting cougar, not just buying tags to keep in our wallets durring deer and elk seasons.

Excellent suggestion, this is a perfect excuse to get out into the woods with a gun and do a little scouting.

I will be taking the time to learn cougar hunting this summer. I can set up my trail cam and scout for elk and deer at the same time.

Does anyone know if it's OK to use bait, live or otherwise? I was thinking about useing feeder rabbits.

Kudos to the ODFW for extending the couger season after the voters passed a "save the poor cougers from the evil hunters and thier dogs" ballot initiative.

baltz526 · 05-31-2005, 04:08 PM

there is no baiting of any big game or bird allowed.

BrianMaguire · 05-31-2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

there is no baiting of any big game or bird allowed.

While baiting is illegal, the hunters I know who are year in and year out successful hunting cougars use "natural" bait for cougars. What I mean by this is, if you find a recent, I mean very fresh, cougar or bear kill, dead deer, etc. Sit on that sucka and the cat will come back, in fact, it probably is not that far away to begin with. Now finding one of these is more tricky but if you do find one, you have just flopped a pair of aces and you need to go all in.

baltz526 · 05-31-2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

While baiting is illegal, the hunters I know who are year in and year out successful hunting cougars use "natural" bait for cougars. What I mean by this is, if you find a recent, I mean very fresh, cougar or bear kill, dead deer, etc. Sit on that sucka and the cat will come back, in fact, it probably is not that far away to begin with. Now finding one of these is more tricky but if you do find one, you have just flopped a pair of aces and you need to go all in.

very good point,i have killed bear near a winter kill elk carcas.

slowbuilder2005 · 06-01-2005, 09:49 AM

What do you do with a cougar once you shoot one? Are they any good to eat, or is this just a good practice for management of other big game? I don't need or want skins...

Brian

uhmw · 06-01-2005, 11:21 AM

I like many of your points but the one about archery and its huge impact on animals is way off. Last time I hunted elk with my bow I had to stalk the animal to 30 yards and then put it all together with a perfect shot. I will admitt animals come far and few for me and all the bow hunting partners I have hunted with. We may avarage a animal or two every 5 to 7 years. It is not the meat with us but the oppertunity to hunt away from trigger happy road hunters who brag about the long distance shot from high power rifles 1/4 mile away. It is all about the freedom to go to where you want. Limit the weapons not the hunters and hunting seasons. I have always wonderd why they issue so many rifle tags. It is unbelivable how crowed the woods are for these hunts. I bow hunt in relitive solitude and feel sorry for the gun slingers. I would like to see gun tags for the poor,handicap and elderly. divide the rest up in bow, shotgun and muzzy give the animal a chance and use the big guns for preditiors.

bullslayer · 06-01-2005, 01:54 PM

Your a brave man! I understand your points, but the units I hunt are not that crowded when I get to rifle hunt them every 2 or 3 years. They are managed that way and usually provide a decent quality hunt. We couldn't control the animal population with primative weapons effectively in my opinion. I would be willing to use a muzzel loader if the F & W would make the seasons longer and at the right time. I already have a nice one to use. I love bow hunting also and do it almost every year in some form, but like you, I don't harvest very many animals with the bow. I basically don't have the 2 or 3 weeks to use during September to hunt with a bow effectively. I usually only have seven to ten days. I can't be away from my kids that long. Can'
t wait 'til their old enough to go with me. I wish Oregon would look at Idaho's season and management practices. I hunt their too and they seem to have much longer seasons and better harvest statistics. Well that's opinion

Thanks for the thought. Kris.

baltz526 · 06-01-2005, 06:27 PM

i have heard from several hunters that have eaten the cougar they killed that the meat was very good. one of these reports came from a little old lady that said they always ate the cougars in the old days. so if i every get one i'll be trying it on a shishcabob. or wrapped in foil,baked like the oriental paper wrapped (chicken) and when i find a great way to cook it i'll post it.

Hawk · 06-01-2005, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Basically it all boils down to cows, the biggest biological disaster in the west.

I don't agree. Cattle have been run on the east side ranges for 150 years, and it seems like the elk and deer populations have really been tanking in the last 10-15 years.

I think it's more a function of predation and mismanagement by ODFW that has allowed the ongoing harvest of does and (elk) cows. Even though they can't meet current management objectives, they still keep issuing doe/cow tags to harvest the mommies. That makes no sense. Use damage control hunts to control specific (female) animals, but quit killing the mommies!

PullShootExplode · 06-02-2005, 01:39 AM

Cougar is very tasty. I cant remember if it is this site or the monster muley site but there are some good reciepes (sp) that are very tasty. Cougar it's what's for dinner.

baltz526 · 06-02-2005, 05:49 AM

Quote:

I don't agree. Cattle have been run on the east side ranges for 150 years, and it seems like the elk and deer populations have really been tanking in the last 10-15 years.

if you hunt the east side of the state in different areas each year, you will see that in some areas the winter range for deer is gone,eaten by cows and swollowed by the large ranches, wheat, and alfalfa farms. after 150 years of this type of pressure the deer herds can not survive the additional pressure of cougar over population. in some areas where the cougar had 20,000 deer to prey on they now have less than 2,000 and that number is still dropping after several years of mild winters.with the odfw giving out doe tags in these same winter ranges for years on top of all the other pressures our herds are trying to survive is insane and is not game managment but politics.

Quote:

I think it's more a function of predation and mismanagement by ODFW that has allowed the ongoing harvest of does and (elk) cows. Even though they can't meet current management objectives, they still keep issuing doe/cow tags to harvest the mommies. That makes no sense. Use damage control hunts to control specific (female) animals, but quit killing the mommies!

yes, game control by politics is insane.

sunshinefisherman · 06-02-2005, 05:56 AM

Cougar jerky?

Washington Hunter · 06-02-2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Cougar jerky?

No, cougar steaks. :grin: From what I hear, it's too good to waste on jerky.

Maverick Maxcat · 06-02-2005, 05:46 PM

Hi all ,I'm back!

Thanks for keeping this thread alive. I'm glad to get people talking about these issues. I'll try to clarify some of them.

Restricting archery access has nothing to do with the actual kill. It is needed to keep the number of humans in the woods at a level acceptable to the game. Too many people around, for any reason, will move game animals out of an area. This is usually from public ground onto private. By reducing human numbers on public ground, more animals will stay there, where public land hunters can get to them. This also happens when there's too many rifle tags issued. All the game is herded onto private land, and usually stays there.

Humans have influenced the environment in numerous ways, from cows to logging to housing to farming to fire prevention to juniper encroachment. What was going on 150 or 200 years ago is meaningless now, and will never return as long as people are here. We must manage our game with the conditions that exist now! There is no valid arguement against poacher and predator control. If nothing else, EVERYONE must contact ODFW and the legislature NOW if we want things to improve. Tag numbers are more controversial, and not everyone will agree with me. That'd fine. Just write what you think to the people running the show. If you don't participate in the process, you've got no right to complain about the outcome.

Bendman, I know it's getting late, but if you can get that letter posted it would explain a lot more, quickly.

Please people, write SOMETHING today!

Washington Hunter · 06-02-2005, 05:58 PM

I agree...any unit that is a draw for rifle tags should also be a draw unit for archery. The number of hunters needs to be limited. Doesn't matter how many animals are being killed. The deer and elk are affected either way.

BrianMaguire · 06-02-2005, 06:00 PM

"It is needed to keep the number of humans in the woods at a level acceptable to the game."

Just had to pull my boots up real high with that post Mav.
That is such a load of crock I can't believe anyone would say it. What about all those cattle drives going on in Sept.? I guaranty the stupid ranchers, on horse back, and atv's roaming all over the mountains yelling do 40X the amount of disturbance than archery hunters. I say we get rid of this welfare grazing. Ranchers are a bunch of whining cry babies anyway, most would not make it ten seconds in the real world without the inheritance and the government handouts/welfare. The new ghetto dwellers crying for the check and thier entitlements, on our backs, hunters and taxpayers.

Heck sometimes the Elk never knew I was there all season. There are 200X the qty of rifle deer hunter in the field opening morning that there are archery hunters all year long. I think the ranchers who want to make the big money off the bulls would like to see archery hunters reduced because they "think" we are killing the $10,000 bulls.

Washington Hunter · 06-02-2005, 06:05 PM

Have to agree with you also Brian! (about the ranchers and the welfare grazing)

baltz526 · 06-02-2005, 06:11 PM

the game animals are being pressured from august till november in some units, between all the different hunts. bow, deer rifle, elk rifle,late season bow, muzzle loader, antelope, bear. in some states they combine deer/elk seasons to relieve some of this pressure

BrianMaguire · 06-02-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

the game animals are being pressured from august till november in some units, between all the different hunts. bow, deer rifle, elk rifle,late season bow, muzzle loader, antelope, bear. in some states they combine deer/elk seasons to relieve some of this pressure

Exactly correct but there is a push from ranchers to limit the hunting pressure, specifically archers, without any mention of the impact that they have on the animals. Round ups are worse than the entire archery season. That is my problem, non hunters who are part of the problem keep telling us what should be done with our hunting without even a thought as to their impact.

Quote:

I don't agree. Cattle have been run on the east side ranges for 150 years, and it seems like the elk and deer populations have really been tanking in the last 10-15 years.

One thing you forget is that hunting of Elk was stopped in the 1920's because they were on the brink of extinction. Why? Deer were also very scarce for much of the 20th century. Why? It was only when the deer and elk were protected by the state that numbers were slowly able to grow to the point where we could hunt them. So cattle may have been run widespread for the last 120 years (not 150) but hunting has only really been allowed since the 1950's for elk.

Maverick Maxcat · 06-02-2005, 08:05 PM

Come on guys. The grazing/rancher debate is a seperate subject altogether.

A roundup only lasts for a couple days, and then all the cows and people are back on private ground. If I were a wild critter, I'd head back to the deserted public land ASAP. Only a very small percentage of ranchers hold these kind of roundups anyway. Most small guys will bribe their cows with water, salt, or sweet licks to move them.

I've heard the stories of ranchers "rounding up" game, too. If so, they are bad apples, giving the rest a bad name. What I really hate is the scum in airplanes moving animals the night before the opener. All these actions should be met with severe penalties.

Most ranchers I know are not leasing hunting rights. They are concerned about the game because they like to hunt themselves, or just like having the animals around. Money does not enter into the equation.

The human pressure does include all humans. Birdwatchers, hikers, fishermen, bikers, horsemen, hunters. Not all areas are the same, for sure, but I tried to hunt the Ochoco unit with a bow several years ago, and met another hunter every 2-300 yds in the woods. Obviously, no one saw any animals at all. They were all pushed down on private ground where we could look at them in the fields and meadows. Restricting tags will ensure hunter levels are not excessive.

So, has anyone written a letter yet?

NEW CONTEST!!!!!

Send me a copy of what you write. I'll draw a name from the pile for a free fishing day on Maverick. Salmon, tuna, halibut, your choice. Must be in my hands by 6/20/05. Winner anounced on hunting board.

MM

ehunter · 06-03-2005, 07:20 AM

Brian points are well made I agree we are both know what happens were we hunt in the fall with the cattle drives during Archery season. I know for a fact those guys want the elk on there lands. If they are so concerned why not let some of the hords of archery hunters onto their place to push the elk back. Oh wait they want money to hunt those animals. Follow the dollar that's what this is about.

Washington Hunter · 06-03-2005, 08:57 AM

Yes, private landowners want the state to pay for "damage" the elk do, yet they won't let anybody hunt on their land.

(unless they pay.) How does that make any sense? :whazzup: Answer: it doesn't.

baltz526 · 06-03-2005, 09:47 AM

Quote:

One thing you forget is that hunting of Elk was stopped in the 1920's because they were on the brink of extinction. Why? Deer were also very scarce for much of the 20th century. Why? It was only when the deer and elk were protected by the state that numbers were slowly able to grow to the point where we could hunt them. So cattle may have been run widespread for the last 120 years (not 150) but hunting has only really been allowed since the 1950's for elk

i hate to bring this aspect up but the homesteaders hunted the elk to near extinction,and the cattle ranchers due to the way the land is managed for cows made the recovery of the elk possible to some extent.when it comes to elk the cattle ranchers are helping the herds in most areas just by having cows on the land. but when it comes to deer the cows have a large part in the decline of the muledeer herds everywhere in the west.

Hunt'nFish · 06-03-2005, 10:21 AM

All very good points. Yes I think cows, timber management, predators, and hunter #'s are all going against the game.
The best approach is to influence improvement in each area.

So, participate in the discussions. Hold a bear & couger tag in your wallets "all the time", and go out and hunt them. Call it a scouting trip if you will. As for eating them... one word pepperoni!! YUM!!! :grin:

I started a fall bear hunt the year after the dog/bait measure passed. I think we've killed about 7-8 since them. And I've taken 3 of them, one a beautiful 6ft 325lb male brown w/ black leggings and huge paws. I am still looking for a coal blackie, and since I hunt EO all have been light colored.
So go hunt...... I mean scout!! :grin:

I don't know what the law says about scents, but I've heard of all sorts of things being used from apple juice poured on stumps to Smelly Jelly fish scents dribbled along creek bottoms. Seems like it would work, but I'd check the regs first. We spot and stalk canyon country.

Mike
Walleye Tracker

Mike Knifong Gunsmithing
Beaveton, OR
ultramag338@yahoo.com

RiverRogue · 06-03-2005, 03:10 PM

Brian, while I am not "up' on all the laws, I do know of an individual who was cited after killing a bear which was near a "kill" that was taken down earlier. The contention is that while he did not put the bait there, he did purposely hunt over the carcass, there by hunting with bait. Seems hard to prove to me, but is it worth the hassle?

BrianMaguire · 06-03-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Brian, while I am not "up' on all the laws, I do know of an individual who was cited after killing a bear which was near a "kill" that was taken down earlier. The contention is that while he did not put the bait there, he did purposely hunt over the carcass, there by hunting with bait. Seems hard to prove to me, but is it worth the hassle?

Hmm, good point, probably worth checking out. Was it a natural kill or was is a dead moo cow?

baltz526 · 06-03-2005, 06:24 PM

gut piles from hunter killed game is not bait,a winter killed animal is not bait, a cow that died of natural causes is not bait. so i would say there was some other issue contributing to the persons ticket.the only sent you can use has to be on your person, if it spread on a stump or dribbled down a river bottom it is baiting.

dla · 06-03-2005, 07:04 PM

I agree with most of your position, however I would like to play the part of Captain Obvious, and point out something.....obvious.

You proposal for tag allotment drains the trough for the ODFW employees. In other words, you are asking the ODFW to drastically cut their own funding.

The ODFW oversells tags by creating lots of goofy little hunts. They create the illusion of increased hunting opportunity.

The fact is that hunting participatin is declining. Today's hunter numbers are about 1/2 of 1981. The ODFW needs funding, and the only way they know to do it is to squeeze the hunters.