Predators are killin' our ducks and geese

[skein]

I'm a coyote hunter, and part of the reason I chase them is because they're pretty hard on the other critters I hunt, like upland birds and waterfowl. But it's not just coyotes. Let me give you a quick background.

In Seattle, around Green Lake, the geese were so prolific they were fouling (no pun intended) the shoreline and even the lake itself. It finally got so bad the local authorities trapped most of them and killed 'em - which seemed to make *everyody* mad, hunters and greenies alike. Anchorage, Alaska, on the other hand, has resorted to robbing the nests and giving the eggs to the natives or simply destroying them. Lots easier than rounding up the adults. Both strategies have accomplished more or less the same thing, less geese in a given area.

And that's exactly what predators do. Eggs are a lot easier to find (and whup) than a grown-up goose. But the problem is it's also easier to wipe out a whole brood in one sitting. And it's not just coyotes. In fact, the real culprits seem to be skunks and racoons and, at least on the west side, possums. Lots and lots of our fall flights never get off the ground because they got eaten, either before or right after they hatched.

So...are there any coon hunters out there? I never thought much about it until I learned how efficient they really were. Last year at Klamath I watched two families of coons (5 ea) swim across the channel near our blind in the middle of the day! I'll bet they harvested a lot more waterfowl than I did that year, and I'd like to turn that around.

Anybody know anything about the little pedators?

Skein

[GutshotApe]

Skein - When it comes to introduced species such as opossums, nutrias, starlings, English sparrows, etc., go ahead and whack as many of them as you can. I'll help you.

But native species, even predators, should not be targeted just because they are predators . In cases where human activity has caused an artificial increase in predator populations control efforts might be justified. For instance, there are arguably more crows along highways because of roadkilled rodents (extra food otherwise unavailable) which allows more crows to survive, resulting in increased predation on nearby waterfowl during nesting season.

But to kill native animals because you see them as competitors is sometimes shortsighted. In the prairie pothole area, coyotes have expanded their range, forcibly displacing previously abundant red foxes. This results in less duck nest predation because coyotes aren't nearly as efficient at it as are foxes.

Just my opinion. GSA

Skein,
Fur prices are down so there is little pressure on coon and mink. Buy your wife a fur coat and help get the price up. :grin:

[BassMan]

skein... I grew up in Missouri and we used to hunt coons all the time, mostly running them with "coon dogs" blue ticks , red bones and the like. We hunted them at night and pretty much let the dogs do the work to "tree" them and then pop them with a 22, we ate them and skinned them for the pelts. My uncle has had a couple of real good dogs killed (drowned) by coons before. Its a ton of fun to do and the meat is darn good. I dont think there is a coon season here in Oregon , but you are right they can ruin a hatch of ducks or upland birds. I work swing shift and have hit a couple on the way home.

jb

BassMan,
Coons are classed as furbearers and have a season on them.

Trapping Regulations

[skein]

Keta,

Good idea on the fur coat, but I'm in the process of buying her a new boat. :grin: I can't afford both! What should I do??? [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

GSA,

But to kill native animals because you see them as competitors is sometimes shortsighted. In the prairie pothole area, coyotes have expanded their range, forcibly displacing previously abundant red foxes. This results in less duck nest predation because coyotes aren't nearly as efficient at it as are foxes.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">You seem to have a pretty good store of knowledge regarding wildlife management, and I'm coming to see what you say, especially how thinning a population that is higher on the food chain (coyotes) means there will most likely be increased survival of the smaller predators (fox, coons, skunks, etc). However, there are some pretty good studies that show marked increase in game bird populations in areas where predators have been more closely controlled. Delta Waterfowl, for example, has done lots of work in that area. That's what has caught my eye.

We are working to expand waterfowl nesting areas through wetlands reclamation with the aim of producing more birds. Shouldn't controlling predation also be an important part of our overall strategy?

....I sure wish birdhunter would jump in here and share some of his knowledge with us.

Skein

[ 09-24-2002, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: skein ]

[Bait O' Eggs]

Birdhunter is to busy trying to get Wolves introduced into Oregon to worry about predators. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

Over reducing coyote populations tend to increase the number of mice and rabbits. What we need is a ballanced population.

If wolves were delisted I would be inclined to support them in Oregon. We also could use some brown bears.

[ 09-24-2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[willametteriveroutlaw]

With regards to coons, There has been nearly a doubling in the population in the past 20 years due to cahnging farming techniques. Basically the coons love corn and its increased popularity has doubled their populations.. I personally shoot them on sight. 10-15 a year off my hunting areas doesn't effect their population that bad. I also shoot all house cats I see running on the farmland that I hunt. (with the consent of the farmer) Also any house cat seen on public land I hunt is in a world of hurt. I know this steps on some toes, but those buggers decimate our gamebird populations. I don't hate cats, but i will not tolerate them killing our wildlife.

I am a cat lover and have 8 of them (all fixed) but I shoot every ferel cat I see.

Don't get caught shooting coons out of season but they are overpopulated in the valley.

[ 09-24-2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[GutshotApe]

WROutlaw - you've got the right idea about feral housecats.

Keta - OK by me on brown bears as long as they are confined to southern Klamath County. I don't want any up by Odell Lake, however.

Skein - One problem with shooting coyotes is that they are proven to compensate by having larger litters. Also, Murphy's Law comes into play, i.e.: Back when I worked for a big timber co. we had some land up on the ridge system behind Bandon. There was an old sheepherder who lived on 40 acres surrounded by us and another timber co. Coyotes killed a few of his sheep so he trapped them and got the county (Gov't.) trapper to trap on the surrounding areas. They did a good job and just about eliminated the coyotes. But then the mice, voles & rabbit populations exploded and ate most of the sheep forage on the 40 acres (not to mention killing tree seedlings by girdling on the adjacent clearcut I was trying to regenerate). The old sheep farmer probably made far less money after killing off the coyotes than before.

In some situations, however, such as around nesting areas during nesting season, a case can be made for a predator control program.

GSA [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

[birdhunter]

Sorry it took so long for me to chime in on this one but I've been busy working on the house. Here's more than my .02.

Skein - You are very right that "we are working to expand waterfowl nesting areas through wetlands reclamation with the aim of producing more birds. Shouldn't controlling predation also be an important part of our overall strategy?"

I personally feel that reclaiming wetlands is a great thing, but that managing them only witht the aim of producing more birds is a little off the mark. Managing for the ecosystem as a whole should be our goal. This means predators and predation will be a part of it. Just as it has been for thousands of year. I feel that will be a much more stable method of management.

Predators like skunks, raccoons, mink, foxes and even the raptors take a lot of waterfowl each year. I don't have any solid numbers but I think you would all be surprised at how much mortality is the result of predation. One crucial thing to consider however is whether this predation is additive or compensatory. It's documented that removing predators increases game bird nesting success, but would those animals have survived? That is to say, whether those animals that a raccoon killed would have starved or froze to death anyways or whether they would have lived through the winter and continuted to contribue to the population. It's a gray area because it isn't easy to prove one way or another.

Trapping studies around wetlands during nesting absolutely and conclusively show that removing predators increases clutch survival immensely. Despite this it is interesting to note that Ducks Unlimited does not support trapping programs along with their wetlands reclamation. The reason for this is relatively simple. While trapping in a specific area during the nesting season has been proven to have a positive affect, doing it over a large area is cost-ineffective and for all practical purposes impossible. Like I said, managing for the ecosystem as a whole and letting the natural cycle take place seems like a better idea to me. Predators will always be prey-dependant. While they will take a few animals, they will never be able to kill of a population. At least in a natural cycle, but that is a whole 'nother tangent.

If it wasn't already apparent, I'm a big follower of Aldo Leopold. anyone who hasn't read Sand County Almanac really ought to. He's got a lot to say about predator management. I'm certainally not one to support wide-spread persecution of a species just because it is a competitor. That may be part of the reason I'm having a harder and harder time justifying shooting coyotes on sight. Part of me knows that removing that one animal will have little if any affect on my hunting success or the area's other wildlife. But another part of me was raised with the mentality that you see a coyote you shoot it. It's sort of an unquestioned fact. I guess that's my southern oregon roots kicking in. Still I suppose that like other predators humans are opportunists. And given the opportunity I'd still fling some lead at a 'yote. It's a fact that predators kill other predators just because they are competitors. But what predators don't do is undergo campaigns of mass posioning or helicopter shoots or bounties.

Now before anyone accuses me of being a tree-hugging hippie because I question shooting coyotes, I should have you know that I'm a trapper as well as a predator caller. I've done a lot of damage control work in my day for coyote, coon, bobcat, fox, nutria, you name it. Targeting individual problem animals for economic reasons is perfectly alright with me. Persecuting whole populations of species just for a little more recreational opportunity or to "modify" the environment, that makes me uneasy. If you've got an area you hunt regularly and want to increase nesting success than by all means, target predators during the nesting season. But just randomly removing predators over a large area seems ineffective to me.

That is more than enough out of me for the moment.

GutShotApe - I'm more than impressed with your understanding of management and some of your comments. What is your background if you don't mind me asking?

BOE - I'm not trying to introduce wolves to all of Oregon, just the areas you hunt. :tongue:

[Lured In]

Good stuff folks, but I need to chime in here too...

BH and GSA both almost got to what I consider (that is my uneducated opinion), the heart of the matter. What is the carrying capacity for any species? It does not matter if they are herbivores, omnivores or carnivores. Each should have an appropriate carrying capacity for each ecosystem.

Let's look at the great case of the snow goose. Yeeha! Lots of birds, and they completely devistate everything in their path.

How about predators like cougars? Ask anyone in Southern California when the last time they saw a deer was and you will probably find out that they have more cougars than deer. (hence people go on the menu).

BH do we (that is the collective educated and studuious types like yourself) have any idea what the carrying capacity should be for a given ecosystem? (I know defining the ecosystem and its boundaries is a whole 'nother can of worms). How many black bears can the southwester areas of Oregon sustain? How about deer and elk? (ie critters per square mile).

I read an article a couple years ago in the DU magazine about their stance on predator trapping and I happen to agree that trapping is not the way to go and other methods should be used to manage the predator population if necessary. Given that I love to waterfowl hunt, this is an issue near to my heart. My thought is just build more island in the ponds for the ducks to nest in relative safety from land predators unwilling to swim for a meal. Of course this does not address Hawks and Crows, etc.

[skein]

Bravo, birdhunter, thanks for the reply. Of course that only brings up other questions/comments, but the tone of this thread is informative and friendly - sometimes even downright funny - and for that I tip the hat to all of us.

Let me do some more studying and if it's okay, bug you with a few more questions.

In the meantime, let me say I have all but quit blasting coyotes just because I see one. I *hunt* them as a sport and a tune-up for bigger game. I do, however, tend to hunt them mainly in areas where I'd like a little less predation on some other species.

I just want to be a little better informed about the consequences. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

Skein

[Bait O' Eggs]

Birdhunter - always a pleasure to joust with you. :tongue:

I know if I told anybody in my family that I quit shooting 'yotes on site, they would tell me I went soft and lived in the city to long. Your in big metropolis Corvallis now arent you?? :whazzup: Been hanging around with those book learned type havent you?

You say things that make sense, but when I saw that coyote last week I had him and his guts layed out all over the ground before I knew what over came me. If it had only turned out to be a wolf pup, you know I would have posted a pic just for you. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

Why dont you hug a tree for me sometime this week. Do birkenstocks have good traction when chasing elk?

[GutshotApe]

Birdhunter - I'm recently retired after a career in industrial forestry here in western Oregon. My avocation has been fish, wildlife, natural history & Oregon history. The text for one of my first freshman year forestry classes was Sand County Almanac and I still have my copy . GSA

[birdhunter]

Lured In -

Carrying capacity is one of those terms that seems simple enough but is hard to define when you think about it. Simply put it is the amount of animals an area can sustain. We like to think of it as a set number, but it is something that is always changing. Carrying capacity is a term we use to describe "how much belongs here". However animals and nature don't see it that way. Deer don't care much for whether they are the 1001st deer in an area that can only support 1000 deer. Life is a struggle for survival and that is what animals do. When their population reaches a level that is unsustainable, something has to give. So we can't look at it on the level of individual animals, but rather as a population. That is another term that is ill defined. Where does one population begin and another end? At any rate, I personally feel that populations are cyclic. There will be highs and lows that depend greatly on three differnt things: habitat, weather and disease. Predation, be it human or otherwise factors in, but not nearly to as great an extent.

Carrying capaicty is something that we can't really say "should be" instead it just "is". Populations follow set rules. If the ecosystem can sustain more population growth that will happen. If it can't there will be a loss. Sometimes there is a time delay from cause-effect, but it always happens. At any rate the carrying capacity is what it is and I think you'd find many different opinions out there for what it "should be" or their interpretation of what it is. I can't give you any exact values, but I'm sure you'd find a wide range for how many black bears S. Oregon can support (for example).

Keep in mind that animals don't see themselves as part of a population. They see themselves as an individual. Their carrying capacity is their home range. And the more general you get about an area, the less information you actually get. Critters per square mile doesn't really tell you very much. As a hunter I'm sure you know that certain areas, even with very similar habitat, hold more animals than others. Animals aren't equally distributed but are concentrated. So while elk/sq mile will tell you that there are a lot of elk in the area, just covering one sq. mile doesn't mean that you will find that number of elk. It's not the most useful information out there. On the other hand, herd information is. I pay much more attention to bull:cow ratios than I do to elk/sq. mile. I'm sure you knew all of this already but I ramble.

So that was kind of a politicans answer. Talk a lot about definitions and not really answer the question. It'll have to do for now though.

Skein - Excellent thread to start. I'd be more than happy to entertain more questions with my opinions. I'm leaving tonight for the east side of Mt. Hood to go hunting/camping/fishing till Sunday so my response might take a while. I will get back to this thread however.

BOE - Didn't you know, it's much easier to sneak around in bierkenstocks than it is in clunky old boots. Just ghost in on the elk. Maybe that's what you need to try next year. I get back down to cowtown on Sunday. Will be sure to hug a tree and tip a few back in your memory. :tongue:

GutshotApe - Good man!

[BuKuBass]

One of my favorite Leopold quotations is:

"The hunter ordinarly has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."

Myself, I don't shoot yodel dogs since it's been shown that 80% of them must be eradicated from a given area to lessen their predation. Any lesser amount and they'll increase their litter size to compensate. And unless the surrounding areas are similarily targeted, the surviors will encroach into the newly unoccupied range.
So, as Mr. Leoploud noted, as in all things, it is a matter of personal choice. "Predators are killing our ducks and geese"...I don't own any wild animal. I do kill for the meat but hide and hair makes a thin soup. But this is my belief; all others are entitled to theirs.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Birdhunter - I am not sure you are defining carrying capicity correctly.

I define carrying capicity as - the number of animals left standing when the gun is empty and I go home.

Ben - actually I enjoy your philosophy even if it is textbook swayed. You will make a fine beaurocrat some day. You can fish in my boat anytime.

[skein]

Good point, BuKu,

So, as Mr. Leoploud noted, as in all things, it is a matter of personal choice. "Predators are killing our ducks and geese"...I don't "own" any wild animal.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">The "our" in my comment was not in a sense of owning, but of belonging. I to them, they to me, like when we talk about "our" country, our town, our rivers. There is much more obligation in that statement than there is ownership.

Skein

[GutshotApe]

BuKuBass - Yes, I too always liked that Leopold quote. And, I too no longer shoot coyotes. The last one was nearly 20 years ago in Harney Co. After I dusted it with my .22-250 I walked out to the carcass lying in the sagebrush. It was a young 20-pounder. My springer spaniel (I was on a bird hunting trip) went up to it, sniffed it, then turned to me with an expression that seemed to say "Jeez boss, why'd you shoot that dog?" I know, that sounds sappy, but since then I've enjoyed not shooting dozens of coyotes that I could have, and once, would have. Now I prefer to see them run and to hear their song. Sometimes I can hear them from nearby in the woods below my deck . GSApe

[KingFisher85]

Bait O' Eggs - I define carrying capicity as - the number of animals left standing when the gun is empty and I go home.

You are so right.
The Coyotes are now just starting to come back around here. After a few good shootin years. Well, I just popped one with the 22 mag, oh ya one shot one kill. Did not even get the barrel out the front door. :grin: Now look, Moms out there chasing them in the car out in the field now. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

[OceanBlue]

Skein,
Buy her the boat, she'll get more use out of it. Not to mention she'll get hassled less!
:grin:

Oh, and here's a tip for you - Roasted Raccoon is considered a medium-fat meat and contains 72.3 calories/ounce.

Jen,
All of the coon that I have eaten were fatty. Are you sure they weren't possums or roof rabbit you were eating? :grin:

I hope you can get your fix this weekend and excercise Bill's big brother. :smile:

[SLEDDER]

I do nuisance trapping in the winter just for the h*## of it. I get my share of coons. Waterfowl eggs are one of thier favorite foods, especially right before they hatch.

[Killertraylor]

You guys who are out there shooting cats - shame on you. I always lived "in the country" growing up and our family's pet cats were always shot by some a-hole who I'm sure thought he was doing someone a favor or killing a "feral cat". I'm no longer a cat lover or owner, as I've become a springer spaniel's best friend, but think twice before you go shooting a cat that might be someone's pet. How can you really know whether it's just wandered away from home to do some hunting? How would you feel if someone shot your dog just because it wasn't behind someone's fence? It's the same way I felt as a kid when my cats were shot.

[TheRogue]

I grew up on about 1000 acres of sheep-raising ranch on the south coast. Had chickens, geese, rabbits, cats, dogs, the whole "Old McDonald" farm :grin: :grin: . If we saw a coyote, we killed it. If we saw a strange dog, we killed it. If we saw a strange cat, we killed it.

That's the way it was down there...and to this day, when I'm down that way, the same rules still apply. Now that cougars have gotten so thick down there, they've become the top of the natural chain, and they're tops on the kill list as well.

However, I don't slip into this mindset elsewhere. I don't shoot at 'yotes out hunting normally, mostly because I don't want to spook what I'm hunting. I don't shoot strange cats and dogs because I don't have animals now, and the neighbors in the subdivision probably wouldn't be happy

Sometimes, I hate to see urban ethics imposed on rural values....if you haven't been there, you just don't understand.

TR

[Bait O' Eggs]

Rogue - I think we would get along just fine :smile: ...... um........ that is if I could just accept those purple pants you wear.

[ 10-02-2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Bait O' Eggs ]

[GutshotApe]

Rogue - I know what you mean. I live 20 miles outside of Eugene and apparently people who decide to dump off unwanted cats & dogs "out in the country" figure 20 miles is far enough. There is a fairly steady supply of bewildered, unwanted dogs ranging up & down our county road. They usually don't last long before being run over or before the county dog catcher gets 'em. Cats are another story. They can live "off the land" for quite a while, usually until the first winter. But until they die from exposure or become roadkill, they get a lot of birds and small mammals. Some would say "So what?" I like to see the birds and the hawks & owls need the mice. So, if I'm sure its a feral cat, I take care of it if I can get a guaranteed, one-shot kill. My old labrador trees cats about as good as a hounddog!

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Heres some interesting information on cats:
http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/wildlife.pdf

I have personally shot cats that were stalking coveys of quail, in the act. I saw one with a wood Duck once. "fluffy" should stay in the house or be de-clawed and wear a bell.
I don't know and frankly don't care, if I see a cat on property that I have permission to hunt ( after querying the farmer to make sure which cats are his) or public land. I shoot first and ask questions later. Imagine if each of us had a pet coyote that still killed Deer, waterfowl, and upland game birds, but when times were rough we still fed it and it had a safe place to sleep. A cat is just a smaller version of that. The majority of time these cats are strays that some "idiot" dropped off because he didn't have guts to deal with fluffy. Yeah they kill mice, but so does decon.Coyotes are actually great feral cat population controllers.

Killer Taylor, I would be devasted if someone killed my dog, But if it was out running deer I would have a hard time blaming the shooter.
If you are a responsible pet owner, your pet won't get shot and wildlife will be safe as well...

[ 10-02-2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: wilamatteriveroutlaw ]

[GutshotApe]

I call them "gratutious predators". The carrying capacity of wild predators is limited by the prey population. The carrying capacity of housecats and farmcats is unaffected by the prey base and they take a huge toll of wildlife. Back when I was younger a couple of friends and I used to drive county roads in the Mollala/ScottsMills area at night with a 12-pak and a 12 guage shotgun. We figured if a cat was over 1/4 mile from the nearest house, it was "feral".

Killer,
More loose dogs get shot in my area than cats by about 15 to one.

[GutshotApe]

Killertraylor - The 12-pak/12-gauge event I mentioned happened over 30 years ago when my friends and I were in our early 20s - I would never do such a thing now. But back then my pals and I had just gotten back from Vietnam and needed something to kill. No, just kidding!

But Doug O., who was our ringleader, said before he went in the service there were lots of pheasants around his family's farm outside Molalla/Marquam and few feral cats because he and his high school friends used to eliminate them regularily. He thought in the intervening 4 yrs the cats had rebounded and the pheasants crashed.

I live on a rural 10 acres and have neighbors on both sides of my land and both of them have multiple "outside" cats. I see these little predators hunting wildlife on my land frequently. I've talked with the neighbors but they claim their cats don't stray. I don't shoot their cats - but, I do try to scare them back home. However, when a strange cat shows up and lingers - after a week or so and they're still here? Then, its time to humanely put the poor thing out of its misery. The wildlife on my land belongs there - dumped off, unwanted housecats and feral cats do not.

Killer,

Have you ever seen calves or sheep ripped up by loose dogs? How about over 200 rabits with killed in their cages by loose dogs?

Shooting loose dogs IS LEGAL and encouraged where I live.

Nothing to do with our childhood, it is just ilegal to shoot the owners :shocked: .

GSA,

My cats (8) wander all over. They get beat when I catch them with a bird or snake, two of them just won't learn. The neighbors are cat haters but when they see the cats comming out of their barns with mice and rats they don't care if they are "trespassing". My personal cat catches lots of gophers and moles too. We still have valley quail, phesants, doves, ducks and geese here. We have lost cats to great horned owls and red tail hawks.

[ 10-03-2002, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Killertraylor]

I guess I'm in the minority here. Just don't come round my place. I'd probably kill someone if they shot my dog just because he was 400 yards away from my house on my own property. You guys must have had tortured childhoods. I don't have any problem with killing coyotes, but when it comes to killing cats and dogs, you guys should be locked up! The law forbids it. There is no open season on cats or dogs, so no matter how you guys justify this cruelty in your own head, it's illegal and not worth the horrible sorrow you might cause a pet owner. To be honest, I'm incredibly shocked that you think it's sporting or even legal for that matter to shoot cats and dogs on sight just because they might be lost or strayed too far from home. I always knew that people like you guys existed, I just never thought you'd be so proud to admit such horrible things.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Killer taylor, if you think its "sick and twisted" to protect our native wildlife from unnatural predators, Then by god I am a sick man. I release native steelhead, Keep bass in our salmon rivers, and yes I occassionally remove an unnatural predator. I don't hunt cats or dogs for that matter. I would never shoot your dog or cat if it was playing in YOUR field or on YOUR property. Its when its not and its out harassing and killing our natural resources that I don't take a kind view to it. I don't get aroused by shooting domesticated or once domesticated animals. But as I am a responsible conservationist, I feel it is my duty under the correct circumstances.
And as an aside
498.102 Use of dogs to hunt or track game mammals or birds.
(1) Any dog that is not wearing a collar with a license number thereon in compliance with ORS 609.100 that is found unlawfully hunting, running or tracking any game mammal or game bird may be killed at such time by any person authorized to enforce the wildlife laws.
(2) If a dog that is found unlawfully hunting, running or tracking any game mammal or game bird is wearing a collar with a license number thereon in compliance with ORS 609.100, the owner of the dog shall be notified by any person authorized to enforce the wildlife laws. If the owner or reputed owner of the dog disclaims ownership of the dog, the dog may be killed at such time by a person authorized to enforce the wildlife laws.

(3) If the owner of a dog has been notified that the dog has been found unlawfully hunting, running or tracking game mammals or game birds and thereafter fails to prevent the dog from unlawfully hunting, running or tracking game mammals or game birds, such dog may be killed by any person authorized to enforce the wildlife laws.

(4) No person shall permit any dog the person owns to unlawfully hunt, run or track any game mammal or game bird. [1973 c.723 §84]

A biologist at fish and game said that they have no statutes regulating removing unwanted cats from your property. OSP wildlife division officer Said the same thing as well. As an aside note the biologist said that is one of the best ways to keep our game birds.

[ 10-03-2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: wilamatteriveroutlaw ]

[GutshotApe]

Keta - Here on my coast range ridgetop there are very few quail although it is good mountain quail habitat. There is a covey or two on the little clearcut across the canyon and in winter they cross the creek and forage on my place, but virtually no successful nesting happens here. I attribute that mainly to the neighbor's housecats killing the nesting birds. I found a well hidden quail nest a couple years ago (the only one in 8 years) near my house and kept track of it daily but I kept seeing the neighbor's cat skulking around that area. It apparently found the nest because finally the adult (did you know both female and male mtn quail incubate separate nests?) disappeared and the 11 eggs were still there, unscathed but never to hatch. A possum, skunk or raccoon would have eaten the eggs so it probably was Fluffy the Cat that did the deed :depressed: .

Nationwide, housecats kill millions of songbirds and gamebirds [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] every year. Many people think that's OK but I don't. If pet owners really loved their pets, they wouldn't let their cats & dogs run loose.

[Killertraylor]

Finally - you guys made some sense out of this! I have no problem with killing problem animals that are harassing wild game or livestock, but that's not the way your initial posts were directed. GSA's post about getting a 12 pack of beer and cruising the county roads shooting cats and dogs more than 400 yards from the nearest house is not "taking care of problem animals that are harassing wild game". Shooting any dog or cat you don't recognize is not "taking care of a problem animal" I know you don't do that anymore, GSA, but there are people that do. Just look at the crowd at the next gun show you go to...its scary to see guns in the hands of some of those guys - one of them shot a bunch of elk and left them to rot last week.

Willamette River Outlaw - you are right that the law allows one to kill a dog that is harassing livestock. Your initial post said you shoot any housecat you see either on private land (with the consent of the farmer) or public land. You didn't qualify your statement that the cat had to be hunting, tracking or pursuing game animals. ORS 167.315 provides "A person commits the crime of animal abuse in the second degree if, except as otherwise authorized by law, the person intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes physical injury to an animal. Animal abuse in the second degree is a class B misdemeanor." Like I said, I don't have a problem with destroying a cat or dog if it has become a nuisance or is killing or pursuing wild game. That's not what most of you were posting about though. Some of you said you shoot all cats and dogs if you don't recognize them or if they get too far away from home. You didn't say they had to be chasing or pursuing wild game.

I grew up in Klamath Falls hunting ducks, geese, rabbits, deer, etc. almost every day the seasons were open. I've spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours hunting quail, pheasants and other upland game birds. I can't ever recall seeing a cat or dog harassing wild game. My point was that to shoot one that is wandering down the road or simply strayed a ways from home chasing a tweety bird is wrong and you ought to think twice about killing what might be someone's pet. I remember how bad it hurt when I was a 6 year old kid and some guy walking down the street shot my cat with a BB gun right in my own front yard. I stayed up with my cat all night because the vet wouldn't see the cat until 8:00 a.m. My cat died in my arms at 6:00 a.m. It was very traumatic and nobody should have to go through something like that just because some crazy hick wants to get a case of beer and go out and shoot cats and dogs.

Killer,
Bummer about your cat. I have had them run over on purpose.
What high school did you go to?

GSA,
Cats are a efficient preditor and aren't controled by prey populations.

[ 10-04-2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[TheRogue]

Killer.....I doubt any of us are going to go into someone's yard and shoot a kitty. However, many, many people forget the RESPONSIBILITIES involved with having pets!! It's not the cat or dog's fault they're out running around in the neighbor's chicken coop. They're animals, and are doing what's natural. It's the people who bring these animals home, and forget about them as soon as they're in the door, that are the culprits.

You must have some mighty lazy cats and dogs down in K Falls if you've never seen any out chasing anything.

I firmly believe you're doing a service by disposing of stray cats and dogs....if people can't care for them, or at least keep track of where they're at and what they're doing, ESPECIALLY in rural areas, then they shouldn't have any....period.

TR

[GutshotApe]

Keta - You're right, but its not because cats are efficient predators that they're not prey dependent.

All natural predator populations are only as abundant as the prey base allows. Under natural conditions, predators cannot kill all the prey animals without themselves first dying due to starvation. But housecats and farmcats have food provided by humans so their hunting is entirely additional to natural predation. According to the link willametteriveroutlaw posted on 10-2-02 at 3:52PM, house cats kill hundreds of millions of small birds and mammals in the US every year. A hundred million here, a hundred million there, pretty soon you're talking about real numbers :depressed: .

[Killertraylor]

Rogue - I didn't say I've never seen cats or dogs chase ANYTHING - usually its a blackbird in the yard, a mouse, a small snake, grasshopper, or a tweety bird in a bush. I just can't ever remember seeing a cat or dog go after a quail, pheasant, duck, deer, etc.

Keta - I would have gone to KU but I moved from K.Falls when I was 14. I went to Riverside elementary and Ponderosa Jr. High. I used to pack my BB gun to school with me over the mountain and hunt rabbits and birds on the way to school, hide the gun in the sagebrush on the mountain, and then hunt on the way home too. Greatest place in the world to grow up if you ask me.

GSA,
That's what I was refering to, there's always the food bowl.

Killer,
It wasn't bad 30 or more years ago but it has become overgrown and cityfied. :depressed:

[ 10-04-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[willametteriveroutlaw]

I don't like cats on my hunting areas, period. Even if you don't catch them in the act, most likely they are actively hunting. I don't want to shoot anyones pet, but on the other hand I don't like see our wildlife killed by unnatural predators. I like seeing goldfinches, jays, and other "tweety birds".
I checked with my local sherriffs office with regards to loose running cats on my leases. He said as long as there out of the urban growth boundry, they aren't protected.( if there on your property or property you have controll over)

[garyk]

I'll speak up for 'yote. They're the best thing around for eliminating feral cats.

I raise sheep and hardly ever kill coyotes. I missed the last one I shot at about two years ago.

[skein]

It's pretty well known that coyotes place housecats high on their list of yummies. In some areas like Christmas Valley one of the best coyote calls is a mewing or fighting housecat. I even ran across some guys who had a stuffed cat they used as a decoy, and they had done well enough to make me jealous.

However, I don't see evidence of cats, feral or otherwise, destroying the eggs in nests. They can be hell on the hatchlings, but they don't seem to relish eggs nearly as much as skunks, coons, and possums. Neither do I see cats out in some of the places where I see lots of nesting birds - like Warner Wetlands or even Klamath/Agency Lake area (once you get away from houses).

Would aggressive predator control in those areas equate to greater nesting success? Almost surely it would. Would it offset some sort of natural balance? Maybe, but no more than habitat improvement does. I drove around Malheur a couple of years ago and looked at the fish screens, culverts, dikes, etc, and realized that *we* had already altered the landscape significantly in the name of "nesting success." It seems to make sense to go the next logical step.

My vote remains firm in the predator control column. I'd like to see a test area or two where the mid-range predators were severely controlled by hunting or trapping (I'll hunt the coons, you trap the skunks) :grin: and some numbers tabulated as to the short- and long-term effects on the overall health of those areas - and not just bird populations.

Does anyone know what the steps are to initiate research? Do we wait until a graduate student decides to do a thesis on a particular subject or some environmental group decides we need to count spotted owls? Is there a forum for encouraging specific studies? Have studies like this already been done and I just don't know about them? (all too likely) If so, where does one go to find out what procedures and results were obtained?

Sorry for the long post - I get too wordy sometimes.

Skein

[ 10-08-2002, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: skein ]

[TheRogue]

Skein.........

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

In this day, it probably ain't gonna happen, unless you know someone way up the line at DU that takes an interest!

Post if you ever get something going, though, I'm sure more than a couple of us would be more than happy to help out in the eradication areas!!

TR

Keta:

As I posted earlier, I grew up on a sheep ranch. We varied between 500 and 1000 sheep, depending on the market. We lost 15-30 sheep per year to 'yotes, and that is with keeping the population WAY down with trapping, "getters" (cyanide cartridges), and shooting them. Also lost a bunch of lambs yearly to golden eagles.....but, needless to say, they were off limits! :grin: :grin: :grin:

One year we lost over 100....but that was the year we had a momma "kitty" (cougar) with a litter, and she was teaching them to hunt. Killed our pet sheep we raised from the bottle, 10 yards behind the bedroom window.

TR

[GutshotApe]

Skein - The Wildlife Society publishes a journal and additional bulletins covering newly published research results. OSU wildlife science dept. no doubt has back copies. The ODFW office at Adair Village also has an extensive library of wildlife related stuff that you could access. Finlay NWR is another source of info.

If you wanted to conduct some new predation research one way would be to offer to fund a grad student to conduct whatever studies you want - it just costs $$$ . Right now there seems to be plenty of money for spotted owl, marbled murrelet, red tree vole, banana slug and other oldgrowth related wildlife studies but not as much for other types of wildlife.

The problem with wildlife research is that it is very hard to find a study area discrete enough (where all sources of variation can be measured & monitored) - and a control area of equal size & condition where nothing is done, to serve as a comparison. To be meaningful most studies would need to run for several years. And then, even if you were able to overcome the logistics, you are still faced with the problem of not getting anything conclusive from one investigation. "Needs more research" is the bottom line you would hear.

There are many waterfowl, gamebird and deer/elk predation studies already made - and I'll bet most of your questions have already been answered or answers could be inferred from existing work.

GSA