Change the Controlled Hunt Draw?

Ni! · 05-16-2005, 08:03 PM

Subtitled: "My Brilliant Plan"

I went ahead and completed my annual ritual of applying for several hunts I have no chance of drawing for several more years, and I'm getting a little bit frustrated, especially after hearing stories each year of people drawing sheep tags and essentially wasting them by not being prepared for the hunt.

The idea I have is that for certain "Premium" tags, the tag money should be paid upfront at the time of application, and it should be non-refundable. I would apply this to sheep and goat tags, and a few of the tougher draw deer and elk hunts such as Wenaha elk and Trout Creek deer.

I believe this was the procedure about 10+ years ago, and in those days there were sheep tags with as few as 10 people applying for them. Nowadays the best you can hope for is a hunt with only 60 people applying for each tag, and most around 150 or so.

I'd like to hear some other ideas on this subject. I know a lot of people would probably object because it sounds elitist. I guess it is a bit, and that's kind of the point, as I would like to discourage the people who are not really serious about the hunt, but apply because it only costs four and a half bucks. But I don't think it would rule out the people with limited incomes who are serious about hunting. I'm one of those people myself and I'd be happy to buy the tag upfront if it meant a realistic chance of drawing a sheep tag in my lifetime, or a Weneha tag every six years instead of every 12 or 15 or ??? years.

Comments?

Ni!

sandman · 05-16-2005, 08:23 PM

Ni,If you want to do it the old way,montana,wyoming,arizona still do that.I think you can never be completely prepared for drawing this "premium" tag.When i drew mine i only had 2 1/2 months to plan.Then every time i went scouting i never saw sheep

I believe everybody should have a chance to draw with the $4.50 app.If you really want to go bad,refi your home and buy the auction tag

Not trying to rub it in but my sheep hunt was by far the best hunt of my life :grin:

billc_sbio · 05-16-2005, 08:29 PM

Yeah, that was the way it "used to be" for ALL tags for awhile...

The state sitting on MILLIONS of OUR Dollars making a handsome profit on the interest from our "loan"! (and you know it wasn't the ODF&W who GOT the $$$!

)

Most people STILL didn't get drawn!

I think I'd like to hold onto my $$$ myself!

2LEYS · 05-16-2005, 08:52 PM

Bighorn Sheep = $101.50
Rocky Mtn Goat = $101.50
Deer = $19.50
Elk = $34.50
Proghorn = $36.50
Hunting Liscense = $22.50

That gets expensive after a few years.

BloodNtheboat · 05-16-2005, 08:55 PM

Although our tag system is in need of a change, I dont feel that this is the answer, waiting to draw a quality tag is normal for quite a few western states. What should change is how the general season is structured. The reason why it feels like you have to wait for so long for a quality tag, is because the general seasons dont pose a very good hunting opurtunity, for instance, the spike only thing in NE oregon is a joke, I beleive that if the general season is going to be a spike only season, than the controlled hunts in theese areas should be 3 pt or better. (I have no biology degree, so keep in mind this is a sportsman POV)
I think that if they made it to where the general seasons werent such cruddy hunts (5 day seasons, spike only etc...), than the wait in between tags would be less painfull. Keep in mind, that the focus of this is more geared toward Eastern oregon, not western oregon.

Ni! · 05-16-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Bighorn Sheep = $101.50
Rocky Mtn Goat = $101.50
Deer = $19.50
Elk = $34.50
Proghorn = $36.50
Hunting Liscense = $22.50

That gets expensive after a few years.

Yep. And that's why it would make the odds for drawing so much better.

I wouldn't want this to be the rule for all hunts, just a few of the premium hunts. You would still have a choice of applying for the vast majority of the hunts using the current system of $4.50 per application.

Ni!

BrianMaguire · 05-17-2005, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Bighorn Sheep = $101.50
Rocky Mtn Goat = $101.50
Deer = $19.50
Elk = $34.50
Proghorn = $36.50
Hunting Liscense = $22.50

That gets expensive after a few years.

Yep. And that's why it would make the odds for drawing so much better.

I wouldn't want this to be the rule for all hunts, just a few of the premium hunts. You would still have a choice of applying for the vast majority of the hunts using the current system of $4.50 per application.

Ni!

What about young hunters who can't afford it? To me this is the same thing as arguing for more road access, people only thinking about themselves, typically older hunters. Older hunters can afford the tags, young ones can't, older hunters like to drive roads that did not exist when they were young, young hunters don't. (generalization but you get the point). Implementing something like this will hasten the end of hunting by keeping the young out of the sport and this is wrong, IMO.

Try spending $300 a year on raffle tickets you would have better luck.
I do think that there needs to be a wait period before drawing antelope tags again.

Snapset · 05-17-2005, 02:33 AM

I am not going to criticize you for giving this some thought, but I respectfully disagree. In my opinion The present system is the best compromise available for a competition for a limited amount of game animals, which belong equally to every citizen of the state, regardless of that citizens economic or social status. There is plenty of room for disagreement on management objectives, doe and cow hunts, etc, but I will leave those arguments for the biologists. I can easily accept that for the most part, they know more than I. They have decided that we can only hunt for Sheep once in a lifetime, and there are not enough sheep for that to happen for many people. So we take our chances, and blind luck determines who gets to go, not some financial qualifier. That is an elegant solution, in my book.
Honestly, how could it possibly be better than it is now? I can hunt Eastern Oregon every other year for mule deer, and every fifth year for RM elk, and every year of my life I have been able to step outside my door and have access to thousands of acres to hunt blacktails and Roosevelt elk, basically for free. Most of the rest of the world has nowhere near the opportunities we all enjoy.

Ni! · 05-17-2005, 08:32 AM

Well, apparently my idea isn't going to fly. I can live with that.

I don't really think this will reduce any opportunity for young hunters, however. If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll see that I was only referring to the hunts that take years to draw already. How many young hunters draw the Wenaha elk tag? The answer is zero, because young hunters can't have enough preference points. However, all the other elk hunts would still be available to them, and anybody else, using the current system.

People who wanted to hunt E. Oregon every other year could continue to do so at a reasonable price. Those who were willing to shell out a little more each year for the premium hunts would have a better chance of drawing them, and the once-in-a-lifetime hunts would actually be just that again, rather than the not-in-your-lifetime hunt that they are today.

Like I said, I can live with the fact that this isn't gonna fly. I just thought it would be interesting to get some reactions, since I've been thinking about this for a couple of years. I do think there was a little bit of confusion over what I was actually proposing however, since my plan would only affect a few hunts, and the vast majority of hunters would never even notice the difference.

Oh well.

Ni!

horseskull · 05-17-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

How many young hunters draw the Wenaha elk tag? The answer is zero, because young hunters can't have enough preference points.

Not quite true. Oregon system allows for 25% of the tags to be drawn by anyone, regards of preference points. 75% of the tags go to whoever has the most points.
I apply in several western states for tags and I believe that Oregon has the best point system going. I would hate to see a system as who has the most money gets to hunt.

rimrock · 05-17-2005, 06:27 PM

Oregon system allows for 25% of the tags to be drawn by anyone, regards of preference points. 75% of the tags go to whoever has the most points.

Overall we have a good system in Oregon. My confusion comes from the above arrangement. I know the intent is for all applicants to have a mathematical chance of drawing, this is not a bad thing. But it hasn�t worked out in a truly equitable manner.

For example I have met more than one hunter (one is in my office) who has hunted twice in very good units for antelope. I have never drawn and have 11 points, might draw this year but no guarantees. Is this equitable in regard to premium tags/hunts? Not sure it seems so when some hunters have hunted twice and others zero. Why not for premium hunts like antelope 100% of tags go to the highest point holders, then over time everyone cycles thru evenly?

Who said life is fair?

This is my only misgiving with the present system � at least in regard to the premium point hunts.

baller25 · 05-17-2005, 07:15 PM

i like thw washington system. everyone goes into a lottery draw. your points are squared so if you have one point you get 1 ball in the hopper 2 points you get 4, etc....

everyone gets a chance albeit a small one for the most exclusive hunts but does not penalize someone who has 8 points versus one point in a 10 point draw.

why should a person with one point have the same chance as someone with 5 in the open draw?

i have a buddy with 8 points and is 51 years old he is 3-5 years out before he will draw his wenaha archery tag why should a 25 year old have the same chance as him in the open draw?

horseskull · 05-17-2005, 08:22 PM

Rimrock, Take the Hart Mt antelope hunt for example. 2623 people applied for the 20 tags. It would take 131 years to cycle though that many people. I think I would take my chances on the 25% pool, or apply for another unit with more tags and less applicants.
I would say you have a very good chance of drawing, if you didn't apply for Hart Mt.

HRDBUL · 05-17-2005, 08:24 PM

In my opinion the rich already have an unfair advantage when it comes to premium hunts. They are the ones hunting the San Carlos and buying lop tags in Utah, Nevada, Arizona etc. My only chance to hunt a premium unit is to wait my turn. Let the guys with the money buy there tags one of the perks of doing well in life, but give the little guy a chance also. By the way the draw system in Or has done me very well, drew Steens mtn deer with 2 pts when it should have taken 4, drew Wenaha bow with 3 pts when it should have taken all of my points combined. The system works if you patient, let me tell you, I will wait 15+ years to hunt Wenaha again.

jmcvo · 05-17-2005, 08:46 PM

Thinking "outside the box" for a moment... what if individuals could earn extra preference points by volunteering time on qualified ODFW projects? I.e.- every X (10?) hours of volunteer time could be redeemed for one preference point in the hunt of your choosing.

jmcvo

Two Fister · 05-17-2005, 08:55 PM

I think the system works all right, but it is so heavily manipulated by people that I don't think it's truly fair. People have their wives, kids, cousins, whomever apply for impossible to get tags and then they make them part of their party to bump up their preference points. I know too many people that work the system this way. I guess if the opportunity is there I should take it, but it seems like cheating to me.

This is especially true when I watched my 80 year old father in law get shut out on an Upper Deschutes Deer tag that has a 98% success rate last year. I'm trying to convince him not to hang up his boots just yet, but I think he's so bothered by the system he's just ready to stop hunting. I hope not, but he's awfully discouraged. Can't say that I blame him.

HRDBUL · 05-17-2005, 08:56 PM

Now thats something I would back, earn your points and a chance to help the critters, If it was in the unit you were applying for, dont think building duck boxes in the valley should equal an elk hunt on my side of the state.javascript:void(0)http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif

that should get the west siders going. he he.

Ni! · 05-17-2005, 10:20 PM

Looks like my "brilliant" plan is DOA. Oh well.

I'm kind of surprised that everyone's so happy with the current system, but if it's working for most people, it must be the way to go. Like I said before, I can live with it.

Ni!

Rank Amateur · 05-18-2005, 08:05 AM

Very true and ODF&W is going to the bank with the non-hunters that are buying licenses and points. This is why they will not change it. I brought this issue to light about five years or so ago, nobody wanted to listen. I talked to the current Director, the staff biggame Bio at the time and two members of a committee that was in charge of reviewing regulations after the tag scandal in ODF&W. I got the minutes of the meetings and this subject was never brought up, but they made sure that an under age kid could not accumulate points. Seems kinda odd to me!

So, you are stuck with the choice of sitting at home or playing the game.

ehunter · 05-18-2005, 09:07 AM

In a blue collar terms it is still pretty reasoanable I think I will have spent about $56 dollars by the time I draw the Wenaha tag, assuming I draw after 14 years. What I don't have is a lot of money I do have time. I am able to have other hunting oppertunites while I wait. I would be a lot more upset if I knew that I could not hunt at all until I drew that tag or that I could never draw the tag unless I had a lot of money. Then hunting would really be a rich mans sport.

Radke · 05-18-2005, 01:22 PM

There is one change I'd like to see them make, but I'm sure others would find objectionable.

I wish we could apply for a hunt, but only put a portion of my preference towards the application. If I was successful, then I only give back the number I had pledged.

I say this because I'm currently sitting on 6 points for elk. My son and nephew put in for an elk hunt this year that probably only needs 2 points to draw. I'd love to put in with them, but only put 2 of my 6 points at risk. If it takes more than 2 points, well I lose out on the hunt, but get my 7th preference point. If I drew the tag, then I only lose two points in getting it.

ehunter · 05-18-2005, 02:02 PM

Personaly I don't have a problem with that. I mean if we were applying for the same unit #ZZZZ that you were saving for it would push me ahead and still leave you with 4 points for the unit#ZZZZ. I think the problem is monitoring and I am sure that some one would find a way around it.

BrianMaguire · 05-18-2005, 03:16 PM

Quote:

There is one change I'd like to see them make, but I'm sure others would find objectionable.

I wish we could apply for a hunt, but only put a portion of my preference towards the application. If I was successful, then I only give back the number I had pledged.

I say this because I'm currently sitting on 6 points for elk. My son and nephew put in for an elk hunt this year that probably only needs 2 points to draw. I'd love to put in with them, but only put 2 of my 6 points at risk. If it takes more than 2 points, well I lose out on the hunt, but get my 7th preference point. If I drew the tag, then I only lose two points in getting it.

I agree and would support something like this. There was some guy last year who had 10 points for deer and went for the high cascade hunt - doh - its a gimme with 0 points. 10 years of applications for the high cascade hunt, that is pain.

sandman · 05-18-2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

There was some guy last year who had 10 points for deer and went for the high cascade hunt - doh - its a gimme with 0 points. 10 years of applications for the high cascade hunt, that is pain.

Theres a darwin award candidate

C-lice · 05-18-2005, 06:24 PM

I think there's a balance to be struck between the current point system and Ni!'s suggestion.

Let's say you are an average hunter who's interested in getting a sheep tag only if he gets insanely lucky (much like now). There should be tags available for you to try the "lottery".

But let's say that you are willing to pay the full price of the tag at the time of application to be in a drawing for a separate tag?

If there are two tags offered for "Steep Mountain #1" then one would be drawn under the old system and another by the pay-up-front system. Or, if one tag is offered per year, alternate what type of tag it is.