35 years ago

[lost_sailor]

History lesson for today



"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been done long ago

What if you knew her
and found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?"

[GRUMPYR]

"Those who fail to learn from thier history are doomed to repeat it".
Or something like that.
G

[Just_learning]

good history lesson.

Thanks LS A tragic time for America :depressed:
I remember that day very well. I had a brother serving in Vietnam at the time and every day of the year long tour of duty he was over there was filled with a lot of anxiety. I'm so glad he made it home safely but the site of those 58,000 + names on that stark wall are haunting.

[FrogPond]

that's too bad...why can't college kids be more intelligent?

[lost_sailor]

I didn't want to provoke anything, I just feel it's very important to not forget.

Maybe Josh doesn't remember how scary it was.

"Speak your mind, if you dare"

"Speak your mind, if you dare"

"but you know, the darkest hour, is always just before the dawn"

Great tune and timely too

[Chrome Bumper]

Wounded:
Joseph Lewis

BTW Joe lives in Scappoose now.

[mustang66]

I agree that it is important to remember things like this, especially for us young'uns who weren't around at the time. It is also very important to remember the lessons we learned from that time, so we don't repeat the same mistakes.

Thank you for bringing attention to this!

[FrogPond]

No, I don't "remember". Not old enough.

It is a shame 4 people died. The events leading to that day induced the response of activating the National Guard. I don't think blame can be placed anywhere except on the demonstrators that rioted and looted the town the two days prior to the shootings. They created the need for more enforcement. I only hope that people attending demonstrations today remember about the law and enforcement prior to joining in activities that are destructive. (When peaceful demonstrations turn violent...it's time to leave!) I love this country. I love the ability everyone has to voice their opinions. I am gratefull that we have individuals dedicated to upholding our laws and that we have the ability to influence those laws.

Demonstrate on every issues you feel people should know about, just do it within the bounds of the law.

[lost_sailor]

I suspect that if all the demonstrations stayed within the bounds of the law, "colored" folks would still be riding in the back of the bus, and Americans might still be dying in the swamps of SE Asia. Not all of the people who have fought for your rights were soldiers of our government.

Most unfortunate. Both sides made mistakes that day.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson

[JustCallMeDave]

Dang, and here I thought that you all were going to toast to the very day that I was born...*sigh*.

[Angler of Repose]

I had just joined the Marine Corps and had been in for 6 months. The image of us killing our own changed my life, and I've never trusted our government since.

[Norski]

I am with you bro.

[8-guage]

I suspect that if all the demonstrations stayed within the bounds of the law, "colored" folks would still be riding in the back of the bus, and Americans might still be dying in the swamps of SE Asia. Not all of the people who have fought for your rights were soldiers of our government.

WONDERFUL POINT L.S.!!! Thanks for pointing that out!

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson

GREAT QUOTE!

[crabbait]

Frogpond - I understand that you don't understand. I guess you had to be there.

All patriots don't wear uniforms. This Nation was born of civil disobedience. Maybe someday people will care enough, again.

Hey, now it´s time for you and me
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Come on now we´re marching to the sea
Got a revolution Got to revolution

Jefferson Aiplane

[Chukrchaser]

A slight differance to one from an earlier post --

"Speak your mind -- even if your voice shakes."

And one that took me a while to appreciate --

"The problems we have cannot be changed by the ones who created them."

With history including long hair and draft cards but a Marine son that came back from Iraq a year ago with injuries that have still not completely healed -- The other lyrics of the "Ohio" era --

"Find the Cost of Freedom buried in the ground
Mother Earth will swallow you, lay your body down"

Have we learned anything?

This is starting to cross the anything but political rule -- I'll quit.

[crabbait]

Come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.......

CJ and the Fish

You are right, Chukrchaser, I'll try to leave it alone as well.

[FrogPond]

CB - Wow...I think you are wrong. I do understand. If I would have been there I would have defended my property from the looters and there would be more blood on the street. And it just might be the blood of those who deserved the punishment. Why is it ok for people to act like that?

It amazes me that people have not learned from incidents like this. People still think they can act this way.

People need to get past throwing fits. If you want our country to reflect your beleifs; vote, attend meetings, voice your thoughts to those that represent you. If enough people feel the same way things will go your way. That's what makes this country great!

[lost_sailor]

dang hippie weirdos

[Siwash]

CB - Wow...I think you are wrong. I do understand. If I would have been there I would have defended my property from the looters and there would be more blood on the street. And it just might be the blood of those who deserved the punishment. Why is it ok for people to act like that?

I'm not gonna say it's OK, but do they deserve to be SHOT DEAD for that? You're saying you're fine with having Joe Guardsman act as judge, jury, and executioner on the spot? Ever heard of due process? Sure, go ahead and book 'em for disorderly conduct, or vandalism, or whatever, and dispense the appropriate punishment for that. I can't imagine any court of law imposing the DEATH PENALTY for property crimes, unless it was directly threatening someone else's life, which it wasn't. Sure, the demonstrators were unruly, even unlawful, but they weren't about to shoot anybody... so who exactly was in danger enough to warrant deadly force?

[FrogPond]

Siwash- I agree completely.

LS- you said it, not me...j/k

[skahorse]

I can't imagine any court of law imposing the DEATH PENALTY for property crimes, unless it was directly threatening someone else's life, which it wasn't. Sure, the demonstrators were unruly, even unlawful, but they weren't about to shoot anybody... so who exactly was in danger enough to warrant deadly force?

While you're correct in your "court imposed death penalty" assertion, I disagree with the rest of your statement. Particulary the "threatening someone life, which it wasn't". Were you there at the time? From LS's linked page it states:

The question of why the shots were fired has been widely debated.

and

Many guardsmen later testified that they were in fear for their lives, although the distance of the students at that point makes the claim seem unlikely.

It seems no one really knows how the guardsmen felt at the time. From thier own words, they feared for thier lives. I tend to trust the assesment of a trained military man, over that of the author of this article with his opinion " the distance makes the claim seem unlikely".

The protestors were told to disperse; they did not. The guardsman we're trapped, trying to withdraw from the situation when some students decided to advance on them. Who knows what they saw, or how they felt.

Personally, if someone is holding a gun to me, it's either time to leave, or deal with the consequences, regardless of the situation. The kids chose to deal with the consequences. It truly is a sad story.

--Skahorse

[8-guage]

Maybe some didn't read Lost Sailors post earlier.
Here it is again:
[quote]
I suspect that if all the demonstrations stayed within the bounds of the law, "colored" folks would still be riding in the back of the bus, and Americans might still be dying in the swamps of SE Asia. Not all of the people who have fought for your rights were soldiers of our government.
Protestors and practices that push the boundries of the law are one way of getting the message out and it's very efeective! They have changed or helped change many inhumane practices.

[scottishsetter]

"I went down to the demonstrations; to get my fair share of abuse.
Singin' we're gonna vent our frustrations;
if we don't we're gonna blow a 50amp fuse.
Sing it to me honey.
You can't always get what you want;
but if you try; you might get what you need."
Jagger/ Richards

They did not deserve to die! End of story! They were not armed and the guardsmen were

[Tilla]

Crabait- Now Country Joe is a Lawyer!

[foxer]

You guys do realize that all of those musicians made tons of dough taking advantage of those times. They still get royalties. Ah capitalism.

[scottishsetter]

And (you asked)Chevron at 25 million gallons/month in B-52s didn't get squat...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ My 25 million figure may be ~Low or high.

With history including long hair and draft cards but a Marine son that came back from Iraq a year ago with injuries that have still not completely healed -- The other lyrics of the "Ohio" era --

"Find the Cost of Freedom buried in the ground
Mother Earth will swallow you, lay your body down"

Have we learned anything?

Your son is a hero is the truest sense of the word! He did his duty in an unpopular war just like the Vietnam vets did.
My best to your son Chukrchaser

[Chukrchaser]

Sigh-- It seems apparent that the some of us must admit to a generation gap and the haze and coloration of the history books. For those that were not yet born, or at least not yet aware, the events in Ohio and elswhere across the nation during that period have been debated and over analyzed nearly as much as the Kennedy Assasination. All with one purpose in mind -- to exonerate the actions of the parties (both sides)involved.

To say that the Guard at that time were "trained professionals" is a stretch to be sure -- many guardsmen used it as a means to escape the draft and Army duty in Nam.

To say that they "feared for their life" -- Hmmm -- In today's world, Law enforcement officers are constantly being brought up on charges for using deadly force -- especially when the victim had no weapon.

As for the comment about all the money made on the music -- get a grip -- and understand that music and lyrics should be something more than head banging or a rap about date ****. They can be poignant summaries of the feelings and attitudes of the times written by true artists.

OOOOH I better quit again before a Mod gives me the "Bunny".

OK One more thing -- There is a HUGE difference between Iraq and Vietnam --- Just in case I needed to confuse people even more.

[mcknerkneykak]

I was stationed at Ft. Hood in 1968 when the Democratic Natl. Convention was held in Chicago. After 3 days of intense riot control training the Army flew us there to lend support to the National Guard if needed. We were told the "yippies", (as they were referred), were the enemy. By the time we left Texas we all were ready to kick some yippie butt. When I look back and understand how the military taught us to dehumanize the enemy, it's easy to know that the overzealous guardsmen that pulled the trigger could have been me or any of you. It's also easy for me to understand why a veteran who went through Hell for his country and was spit on by those he thought he was defending, could be pretty messed up for years after his return. There was ignorance on both sides.-------- How smart is it to throw rocks at a bunch of guys with guns that have been told that you are a low life bottom feeder?