wolves

[myra]

has any one heard anything about the wolves coming into oregon i really want to hear some opinionons about them i am 16 and doin an essay about the wolves . I want to here should they be introduced

[sandman]

Myra,When i think of wolves,i think of the three s-s-s...

Shoot,shovel and shutup!


sandman

[DOH]

First off, there is alot of information out there on wolves. And depending on what type of essay you are needing to write come up how you want to approach it. Opinions, informative, persuasive, etc. There are alot of opinions out there, but alot of information also. Try to come up with your own before accepting others. This will be the best way to learn about something your interested in. Do as much research as you can and you will have a strong essay. Being 16 you have alot of education left (never ending) and coming to your own conclusion through your own research will be the most advantage to your arguments.

I have my own ideas on the wolf management/introduction but it has been hit hard before. Do a search and you can see previous posts on wolves.

Good luck on your essay. Try to have an unbiased opinion going into it and then decided what you think.

[cdbadger]

Hi. I've heard that is customary to "tell a fishing or hunting story" on this discussion board, so you'll need to do that (it's fitting that this is my first post as well, so I owe a story shortly too). However, since you asked about wolves in Oregon, I'll respond to that end. This may cause some heartburn on the part of some - but here goes: Wolves are native to Oregon. They were killed off the first half of the 1900's due to the prevalent thinking of the time that any good predator was a dead predator, since if you got rid of them there would be more big game (deer and elk) and there would be less depredation on livestock (cattle and sheep) that ranchers had out on the range (both private lands and public lands like the National Forests and lands administered by the Bureau of Land Management). Now to the present - wolves will not be reintroduced to Oregon, but due to reintroductions in Idaho, it is a short swim across the Snake River to get to Oregon. There will be established wolf packs in Oregon in the future, if they are not already here. Individual wolves have been found in Oregon over the last 7-10 years, and were either shipped back to Idaho or are documented to have been killed on the highway or "shot" (but I would guess that some are still here!). The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife has developed a "Wolf Plan" to get ready for when they show up in more numbers, and the US Fish and Wildlife Service has several documents out about some of the things we all need to consider when it happens. I could go on - but this is, after all, a discussion board. My opinion - since you wanted some input - - As wolves are part of the natural ecosystem of Oregon, I welcome them back, and we will need to learn how to balence the presence of wolf packs in some areas of Oregon with the needs to minimize livestock depredation (this has been done in Idaho and elsewhere), and monitor the effects on big game.

[BrianMaguire]

has any one heard anything about the wolves coming into oregon i really want to hear some opinionons about them i am 16 and doin an essay about the wolves . I want to here should they be introduced

ODFW completed a wolf plan earlier this year. Check out the ODFW website for more details. Wolves are not being reintroduced in Oregon, the plan cover what should/needs to be done to comply with both state and federal law. If they should migrate here from Idaho the ODFWs wolf plan is how they would be managed.

There are some old threads you can search on this forum about the subject and the various opinions, thoughts are well covered.

[OwyheeKIller]

I'm glad to hear you're doing a story on wolves because predators are a much needed and essential part of a healthy environment. As noted earlier, try to remain objective in your essay and represent the facts of wolf behavior and you'll do fine.

As far as reintroduction goes I'm all for it. I grew up in Idaho and watched them reintroduce wolves. There's nothing like hearing a lone wolf howl in the night as you're walking back to elk camp in the dark under a starry sky. The wolves are as much a reason as are the elk, as to why I return every year. But then again I also like being able to use hounds in Idaho to hunt bear and mountain lions too. Hopefully Oregon will think of reintroducing that as well.

[HarpMan]

Myra, it is my understanding that several months ago several sets of wolves have already been released in Eastern and Western Oregon... Release sites are not given out for the obvious reasons..

[bullslayer]

I'm glad you mentioned the fact that we need to hunt bear and especially cougar with dogs. Our game herds will not withstand anymore new predators without properly controlling the ones we already have. A pack of wolves are very effecient hunters and if they really take hold in Oregon we are doomed as of now unless we control the cougars especially. I've watched the elk herds in the Silvies unit plummit for the last 12 years and I feel it's mostly due to predation on the calf crop by cougars and bears. Wolves are a cool idea, but I pray our game dept. takes serious measures before it becomes a total reality. Look before you leap. Kris. :depressed:

[baltz526]

show me your evidence,on wolf release

[BrianMaguire]

Myra, it is my understanding that several months ago several sets of wolves have already been released in Eastern and Western Oregon... Release sites are not given out for the obvious reasons..

Not true unless it was a private individual.

[Silverback]

Wolves are an awesome creature and they desrve to be part of the Oregon landscape !!!!!!!!!!!

[baltz526]

now silver back,it sounds like you would raise in pens then release into oregons wilderness,wolves.

[Straydog]

now silver back,it sounds like you would raise in pens then release into oregons wilderness,wolves.

Wow, THAT is one heck of a jump in logic!!!!!!!

[Flying Roast Beef]

Just maybe a few wolves could help control the cougar problem.

[Grover]

My soon to be daughter-in-law works for Wildlife Defenders specializing in Wolves. PM me and I will give you her email address.

[baltz526]

now silver back,it sounds like you would raise in pens then release into oregons wilderness,wolves.

after 11hours with no responce i assume my twisted logic statement is not going to trap any illegal wolf planters or cracker jack eaters

[cdbadger]

I couldn't agree more!

[cdbadger]

Well, I guess I could agree with this more, except for the "reintroduction" bit. Oregon won't reintroduce wolves, they are coming on their own accord (they don't seem to recognize the political boundaries us humans do).

[cdbadger]

Sorry, can't agree with you. The wolves are coming on their own accord, no one is releasing "set" of wolves in Oregon. Why go to that expense? I can guarantee you that ODFW wouldn't (like they have budget to even consider it, even if they had the desire, which is doubtful), and I know the USFWS isn't in that business either.

[clearjb]

I had the not so privalage of rattling in a wolf during deer season in Idaho. Really scared me to death. In Idaho they reintroduced wolves I believe in 96 down in the central part of Idaho. In a very short time they have moved north. We have really noticed a decline in deer numbers the last two years. The wolf I rettled in actually did not spot me for about 1 hour. When he finally spotted me he was only about 20 yards away. He spotted me when I grabbed my rifle and stood up. The wolf stalked me for the next 2 hours. I finally was so nervous that I left but watched him on the way out. When I phoned a bioligist he said that there was no way that this happened. It didnt surprise me though I figured he would take that approach. As someone who has had incounters with these animals my advice to all the Oregon hunters is to stay on top of the situation. I guess that wolves never actually left Idaho but for some reason they thought that they needed more. My humble oponion BAD MOVE. LIke I said stay on top of this and ask alot of questions

[Gun Rod Bow]

This issue has been widely and passionately discussed from a number of points of view on this board.

Click on "Search" Type in Wolves in the Subject box, change 3 months to 6 or even 12 months, click on Hunting Board and you will have pages of history on this well beaten subject.

Here's one with some USFWS data on what wolves actually kill in the Rockies, mostly elk, VERY few other predators

http://www.ifish.net/forum/showflat....440&Forum=

The current Oregon plan started out as a "what to do" plan for when these Canadian Wolves that were introduced into Yellowstone, then quickly spread show up in Oregon. They have already, and probably now are here, but not being reported.

The Oregon plan does include a long term strategy to maintain a number of "breeding pairs" on each side of the Cascades.

Breeding Pair: is code for pack of wolves, as many as 12-16 wolves could make up a "Breeding Pair". And with a population of Wolves that include packs or "Breeding Pairs" there will always be single individuals, usually younger males that roam. They would not be counted in the "Breeding Pairs". Neither would smaller packs not considered by the biologist studying them to be adequate for breeding.

There is provision that if wolves don't naturally move to Western Oregon, some would be moved there.

So the Oregon plan initially may not be a reintroduction plan, but later phases certainly are. Also, the level of what is considered to be "Breeding Pairs" and the actual number of wolves in the state can appear very far appart. Kinda depends on who's doing the counting as well.

IE: It would be possible to have only 2 certified "Breeding Pairs" and have as many as 50 individual wolves in an area. You gotta ask questions.

I hope in your research you would strive to talk to people from both sides. Please include ranchers from states where wolves have been for the past 10 or so years. Also perhaps some outfitters from those areas.

Good luck young man. Maybe you could post your essay.

[cdbadger]

I don't think I agree, sorry. I'm not sure that the "slight" reduction of elk in the Silvies Unit (as I would term it) is necessarily due to cougars or bears, but more due to the changes in habitat quality and the natural leveling out of the elk population after filling in all of the habitat available (which they have now done). I remember hunting the Silvies unit when it was a significant occasion to see elk tracks or one or two elk (this was about 25 years ago). Then, 10-15 years ago, there were elk all over the unit, and I'm guessing they still are. While the cougar population has gone up some, they don't impact elk very much. The bear population has gone up, but they impact elk calves more when they are dropped from the cows spread out over the spring - and ODFW's management objectives for larger bulls in the population is improving, which results in more of the calves being dropped at the same time, reducing the depredation by bears. Once the elk have fully utilized the habitat in the unit, they will reach a status quo, and whether you find them in the same places as usual is more dependent on weather conditions and what is going on in the local area. Since your emphasis is on elk (my preference too, at least for hunting), what have your observations been about the deer population? We definitely saw an impact on the deer once the elk moved in, especially in a harder winter where the elk would prevail over the deer because they could reach higher to browse.

[cdbadger]

Agree, although I doubt that is the case either.

[cdbadger]

Not sure they wold help with the cougars, but they sure put a dent in the coyotes!

[cdbadger]

Doesn't look like it. You might have to wait awhile longer! Let's wait to hear from "myra" if more wolf info is desired from the board, OK?

[Flying Roast Beef]

I've been putting my own dent in the coyotes....

[sandman]

cdbadger,Who are you talking too???Agree/disagree??

[bullslayer]

Hi CDBADGER.The deer population has declined big time also.I hunt during the archery season and rifle hunt for elk in the second season and I've witnessed a remarkable decline in both elk and deer populations that directly coincide with the no baiting and no dogs for cougars and bears.I used to see no less than 50 huge bucks during the rut in the Silvies unit while hunting elk and that's dropped to maybe 4 to 6 a season.We defintely haven't had any winter kills and the habitat is just the same or better than it was ten years ago.That leads me to conclude that predators are the main cause.I do think the cow elk were being overharvested because there are two cow hunts.Every time you shoot a cow, you kill two elk!The fish and game did cancel one of the cow hunts starting this year.All I know is that I never had trouble finding elk in the past and in the last two seasons I haven't seen a single elk during legal hunting hours. I hunt hard all day in road closure areas away from most hunters and the elk just aren't there.Thats my two cents worth.I only know what I've seen first hand.I spend about 3-weeks every year in the Silvies unit, I know it very well.Predation is the biggest problem and I can't wait to proove it when we start hunting with dogs again.See ya, Kris.

[PullShootExplode]

Hey Bullslayer,
I agree with you in regards to the decline in the silvies. I have hunted over there for the last 10 years. It was nothing to see more elk and big bucks than people, now it seems that we see more people than animals. That said, one of my hunting party saw 3 cougars in one day. He has hunted longer than I have been alive and he swears that they were 3 different ones. I would say tha twe have a problem with the predators over there. Besides bears and cougars, that we see every year now, the ODFW has had too many hunts in that unit, IMHO. I think last year there was a season from august through the end of the year, be it a rifle hunt during archery(which is complete b...s...) in my view. I think one way that we could help is to have a predator hunting party over there and write ODFW to stop the over harvesting. Sorry this post is so winded, it just got me going.

[sandman]

[quote]
Hey Bullslayer,
I agree with you in regards to the decline in the silvies. I have hunted over there for the last 10 years. It was nothing to see more elk and big bucks than people, now it seems that we see more people than animals. That said, one of my hunting party saw 3 cougars in one day.


I think we just found a new place to predator hunt!Anybody thinking of another ifish pred hunt??

[cdbadger]

Since I'm new here, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm responding to specific posts on the board (such as brianmaguire or bullslayer). Let me know if I should do it a different way. I can respond to your initial post - as per the s-s-s, I think that is only applicable to non-native species, like smallmouth bass in certain areas where they might compete with salmonids (like salmon, steelhead and trout), and I don't think it's too bad to toss the northern pikeminnow up where the osprey can pick them up either. Now I'm sure I've crossed someone...

[cdbadger]

Good - it's not like they are endangered or anything. I don't go for them specifically, but I don't pass up the opportunity either when over on the eastern portion of the State (darn hard to get enough room to call them up over here).

[bullslayer]

Yo Poolshoot! You hit the nail on the head. We've been saying the same thing about overhunting the cows for years. Five elk hunts in one season is way to many.However, thats been going on for a long time, even before I started hunting the Silvies in the early 90's.I didn't start noticing a animal decline until the new cougar and bear laws went into effect.I think between the over- hunting and the predator increase, the game just can't keep up.On a positive note: we've killed two bears the last four years.One with a bow and the other with a rifle.we're still waiting to hammer a cougar.It'll happen!I talk to all kinds of guys who see them every year while bowhunting mostly.Lucky kitty huh!! Yes a predator hunt would be a great idea.PM me and we can talk about it. Kris.

[cdbadger]

Bullslayer, can't argue with your observations. While it could be partially the responsibility of predators, I know that it was more than that to the north of the Silvies Unit (Murderer's Creek). When the elk expanded big time, they made it difficult for the deer to reach the remaining browse on the winter range. This had an impact on the deer population. The "unique" thing I observed on the elk - they would move to where there was less human presence - much of the year this was to private lands, and when the hunting season started (even the bow season) - they would move out to private lands even more. While the road closures / roadless areas help, it didn't take much hunting pressure to get them moving out. You might do a little scouting around the edges of the National Forest or BLM, "sometimes" you will find more elk around that vicinity than in the road closure or roadless areas (remember, the road closures have been in effect in the same areas for many years - and I think the elk have figured it out that even though folks aren't driving the roads - when hunting season comes about there seems to be a bunch more people in those areas. This is even more pronounced in the Heppner Unit, where we have been hunting the last ten-plus years. Now keep in mind, I'm not against collecting the occasional cougar and bear when the opportunity presents itself.

[cdbadger]

pullshootexplode, see my reply to bullslayer. I'm not going to argue over going predator hunting over there (the current restrictions won't let us get too many) or about ODFW's number of hunts - but just consider where the elk go after all that time being chased...

[cdbadger]

myra - you've seen some of the responses on wolves - hopefully they help. It seems that most of us are getting onto other semi-related paths - do you need anything else?

[bullslayer]

CDBADGER.No problems here.It's cool to here other hunters observations.I agree with the private property theory to an extent.There is quite a bit around some of the area I hunt.THe question I have is how the ELK know where this property is.Most ranches hunt the elk and deer to, thus why would this be a sanctuary to them?They don't have radio's to talk to each other.I know the elk will move to where they aren't pressured as much, but how smart are they.I never had any problem finding them before.I hunt all way from Snow Mtn. to Dry Mtn. and a lot more ground in the unit.Private property is usually a long way away form most of my spots.I bowhunted this year in the Silvies and had a blast for ten day's.I won't go back until I notice a major improvement.The wierdest fact is of the last 2 bulls we killed in Silvies, one was shot 100 yds.from a main road and the other 6x5 shot 1000 yds. from our camp on the last morning we were there.As the crow fly's, these bulls weren't separated by more than a mile.Ten of us only saw 10 elk during the whole season. This point again supports my theory that the herds are way down.Why didn't they go to private land? :Ten hunters camped right next to these elk all week, during the second season no less.They were still hanging on NF land?GO figure!Nice chatting with ya. Kris.

[RiverRogue]

An important thing to know about the "Plan", is that "problem" wolves will be transplanted to other suitable predetermined areas, including areas west of The Cascade Mtns. Yes, they were once part of Oregon, but Oregon has changed. There isn't room here for them anymore. I disagree with the plan on many fronts. It basically gives them "Special" status and handcuffs property owners, ranchers, etc from protecting their stock. And only if your life or another human is in peril, can you take lethal action to protect yourself or them. If you hunt in Oregon, the return of the wolf is not welcome news.

[big fishy]

Just got back from Oregon last night, took a load of wolfies over and let them go. Boy, they sure like your deer and elk. Next step up the sheep and cattle of people trying to make a living. Of course that is not a priority of the people who want to hear the wolf howl, but remember you will have to take your rig off the pavement and it could get dusty with a few rock dings. I know,I know your thinking this person has not read the Govt studies and you would be wrong. Lets use something that has missing the last few years "commom sense". I invite you to come to a state which has dealt with the wolves for the last decade. Talk with the ranchers,farmers,hunters,Idaho Fish & Game. Not trying to change your views, maybe just open a few eyes.







Retired IAFF Local 672

[myra]

thanks guys for the information and facts and opinions watch for this i will try to post my essay on the board and if you want to talk about the wolves email me at randle98@hotmail.com

[OwyheeKIller]

There is no doubt that wolves eat a lot of sheep, why woul'nt they? The way I see it, ranching is a business and like most businesses, there are risks involved. I can't say that I feel real sorry for the ranchers because they all get compensated at full market price for their losses so they do not lose any money. I believe ranchers and the damage their livestock produce on public lands, hurt game populations more than the wolves do.

I'd be happier seeing wolves in the places I hunt than a bunch of cows and the minefields of turds they leave behind.

[baltz526]

There is no doubt that wolves eat a lot of sheep, why woul'nt they? The way I see it, ranching is a business and like most businesses, there are risks involved. I can't say that I feel real sorry for the ranchers because they all get compensated at full market price for their losses so they do not lose any money. I believe ranchers and the damage their livestock produce on public lands, hurt game populations more than the wolves do.

study how the ranchers have to apply for compensation for lost animals,they have to prove wolves killed the animal. then if you read the studys on animals killed by wolves.and the numbers they publish,you see a lot of animals listed as being, cause of death undetermined and if the rancher can not prove wolves killed it, no money.a ranchers with 6000 acres my be able to find all kill sites in time to prove wolves killed the animal,a rancher with 60000 acres may not find the kill sites for months if ever, except for bone piles spread around.

[Straydog]

The Columbia was just closed to fishing. This will have a negative affect on my business, on my ability to feed my family and my ability to pay my taxes.

There-fore, I want all predators eliminated and kept at bay at tax payer expense. I want all dams removed. I want all pollution stopped. If a fish dies, I don't want to have to show proof of how it died, I just want compensation, NOW!! Paper work, schmaker work, I want society to make my job as easy and lucrative as I want it to be.

Dang liberals thinking I should have to compete for a living with everyone else in a capitalistic society is just anti American, dab nab it!!!

[BrianMaguire]

There is no doubt that wolves eat a lot of sheep, why woul'nt they? The way I see it, ranching is a business and like most businesses, there are risks involved. I can't say that I feel real sorry for the ranchers because they all get compensated at full market price for their losses so they do not lose any money. I believe ranchers and the damage their livestock produce on public lands, hurt game populations more than the wolves do.

I'd be happier seeing wolves in the places I hunt than a bunch of cows and the minefields of turds they leave behind.

[freespool]

I spent 2 weeks in Yellow Knife, Northwest Territory. One of my fondest memories was watching the Northern Lights and listening to the cry of the wolfes. It's something I'll never forget.
Just watched a special on OPB about the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone. It showed what a big difference they made in the stream side riparion zone, thus enabling the beavers to return after decades of being gone. The wolves kept the Elk moving, which kept them from lingering on the stream banks. This allowed the willows to return, which allowed the beavers back into the ecosystem. It also said the quaking aspen groves started to expand.
They also showed how some wolves had a negitive effect on livestock.
From a hunters prospective I think having wolves stirring up the elk would be a good thing.


salmon hugger

[elkaholic]

I have tried to keep my mouth shut. Myra, I have a thought, maybe this issue isn't as much about wolves as it is land use. A large number of those organizations and individuals who support wolves also don't like cows - have you noticed. Some have spend decades/lifetimes trying to get livestock off public lands. Wolves and other protected predators are the perfect answer to their perfect goal. If they really cared about individual wolves or packs they would want them to die - and die they are in the reintroduction areas, there is no way to avoid conflict with humans, kill and eat animals is what they do. Then we kill them. Vicious circle, paid for by you and I. All the while it is meeting the goals of others - to reduce populations of deer/elk so human culling (hunting)is no longer needed, and force the livestock off public land. (studies in Idaho show up to 8 livestock animals killed by predators are never found for each 1 found, the bigger and rougher country is the 8, small close pastures likely you find all) Great if the wolves knew where public land stopped and private started.

Yes I love to hunt and eat deer/elk, and I also think that where responsible livestock grazing occurs, wildlife benefit - no grazing equals high fuels for catestrophic fires and poor wildlife use once it matures.

Yes, I think wolves have a place, where they can live peacefully, not placed into this sure death environment, seems senseless to me if you really like wolves. I can go to Canada or Alaska or the zoo and see the same family or individuals if I want to get attached to wolves, not new wolves each time because the one I saw last time died because it did what came natural to it.

my .02

[baltz526]

i'm going back to my original thoughts on wolves,lets reintroduce wolves to virginia,north carolina,georgia, newyork,mississippi,ohio,nebraska and once these states have a stable population of 20 breading pairs each, then oregon should be put on the list of future states to be infected,opps have wolves introduced

[scottishsetter]

I got two bird dogs to defend while grouse hunting and defend I will...
If you have hunted the breaks of the Wenaha; you know it's wild. How can you keep you're dogs always in sight?
If I lost my dog(s) I'd hunt 'em back to Canada where they came from...till I'm dead.
Sorry if this expression is an illegal thought/dream.