Ok, its another sea lion post, but please read:

[Dragfreedrift]

read this link:

http://www.katu.com/stories/76617.html


The key part of this is that the tactics do not work.
WE SHOULD HAVE LEARNED THIS FROM THE BALLARD LOCKS!!!!

If anyone doesnt remember, the sealions wiped out the Cedar river steelhead run in less than 8 years.....

something like 5000 fish dwindled to 50 in no time.

Theories and experiments wont work.....the sealions are too smart for that!!!


DFD

[Fast Water]

They are just working within the rules to do what they can do with the same results as the folks up North had.
No suprise really.




Until they make it sting, it is not gonna matter.

[txaggie]

I heard the talking head on KATU say that it wasn't working on the 11p newscast last night. The one positive note I've seen in the recent reporting on the issue from the different local news outlets is that they seem to be adopting a bit more serious vs. the "haha look what funny Herschel did today" tone in the reports.

Maybe they did read Hogmaster's post afterall.

[Dragfreedrift]

this really is serious....more people (the public, not ifishers) need to understand how the sealions could ruin this run very quickly......especially during years of weaker numbers of fish.


DFD

[Ethical hunter]

The ACOE has a number of deterent options they are looking into, the fireworks hazing is just the start. The ACOE is much further ahead of the problem than that at Ballard. They are doing something and progress will take time.

HB

[steelbiten]

Keep at it guys! Your doing the right thing pushing this as an issue.

[flapbreaker]

Maybe they could just trap them and send them to guantanamo until the salmon run is over.

[ampersat]

Look at it this way: if they went up into the dam with guns ablazing, you'd have every animal rights group in the nation parading around downtown waving signs and protesting that they didn't try deterrent tactics first.

I'm sure that they are quite well aware of the situation at Ballard. However, by starting small and working upwards, they are avoiding the backlash of criticism from the public.

[steelbiten]

That one got 5 chuckles out of me!

[8bait]

I can't stop laughing by the time the fed's or states work out a problem we won't have much of a springer left, hope it works quickly, Ballard took way too long and we lost a run of steelhead. just hang in there hope something works

[corkyking]

I hear that on a nearby river, when the fish are migrating, some native americans take the time to teach their kids how to use firearms and to brush up on their own skills. This practice doesn't seem to bother the fishing at all.

[M.Russ1]

Do Sea lions make good crab bait??

What was so important that we had to endure yet another sea lion post?
Do any of you remember Jennie asking us to cool it on the continuous threads about sea lions? What new information has been posted in this thread that has not been said countless other times in the last month or so in countless other threads?
Here is an idea Instead of aggravating everyone with a lot of redundant information ad nauseum. Contact your congressman or senator about the MMPA which is curently up for renewal!The sea lion problem will not be solved at the state level because the MMPA is federal law! Or how about helping out with river access issues by urging your state representitve to support SB423!
Come on guys let's move on and quit beating this dead horse ....please

[Claybear]

Can you explain SB423. First I've heard of this, not sure why I should support it.

[MasterCaster]

Dont like it dont read it ...... seems very simple.

Im glad this is being made into such an issue. Things need done and need done now not in a couple years when the damage has already been done. The more people that know and understand more about this the better support there will be.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[freespool]

Quote:

What was so important that we had to endure yet another sea lion post?


Stew, as near as I can figure, it takes about one brain cell to blame the sealions for our lack of salmon. It's a lot eaiser than thinking, it can be done from the couch, and it's a lot less hassle than attending important salmon meetings. So we get to see thread after thread that do nothing to help solve the real salmon problems.


salmon hugger

[Diehard]

Sea lions eating salmon is just part of the problem. They are also starting to go after the oversized sturgeon. That could become an even bigger problem.

[steelbiten]

Here comes yet another postjacking!

[freespool]

Quote:

Here comes yet another postjacking!


Or here comes another dead horse beating

Steelbiten, the owner of this site does not want any more sealion threads, so why is that so hard to comprehend? Or is stressing her out your idea of the right thing to do? Every concievable aspect of this issue has been covered and recovered dozens of times over the past few weeks. Don't you think it time to let it die?

How about that Judge Redden, how do you think he'll rule today?


salmon hugger

[Just_learning]

Just when we thought it was over...

Anyone want to make the word "Sealion" a bad one and replaced with [potty mouth]? Or a violation of the AUP? Im kidding. Its been a while...and im at work...

[GRUMPYR]

Stew, I don't think Jennie wanted an end to discussion about "peanut brittle", she just wants people to use the threads that already exist to post their ideas on the subject. Maybe if the one or two threads regarding "peanut brittle" get big enough, she will create a forum just for "peanut brittle". Then nobody has to go there if they don't want to.
Oh wait, we already have that option. My bad .
G

[steelbiten]

Quote:

Here comes yet another postjacking!


Or here comes another dead horse beating

Steelbiten, the owner of this site does not want any more sealion threads, so why is that so hard to comprehend? Or is stressing her out your idea of the right thing to do? Every concievable aspect of this issue has been covered and recovered dozens of times over the past few weeks. Don't you think it time to let it die?

How about that Judge Redden, how do you think he'll rule today?
salmon hugger

This wasn't my thread, nor did I say to keep posting on the issue. I said keep at it, not keep posting on it. People have the right to keep at an issue. Maybe you should read the posts more slowly before making assumptions, right! I don't advocate more Sea Lion Threads or stressing anyone out. So what's your motives for attacking others opinions? You seem awfully motivated to defend Sea Lions. :whazzup:

[freespool]

Quote:

How about that Judge Redden, how do you think he'll rule today?


You never answered my question. How do you think he'll rule?


salmon hugger

[steelhead22]

freespool- "Real problems"? Like what?...

Dams, in particular, Bonneville? Good luck in getting them to take down that dam since it is the main power source for the Portland Metro area and beyond. I understand (and it's been stated A LOT) that this is the "real" problem. The salmon can't escape, keg up there, and are easy pickin's for the sea lions. But, the dam isn't going anywhere anytime soon. So, if you think that all of us SINGLE CELL BRAINED FISHERMEN, getting together to tear downt the dam is going to do one single iota of good, your intelligence needs to be questioned, not our's.

Sea lions eating the salmon IS a problem. It is caused by a dam that will not be removed. As a result, the sea lion MUST be dealt with BEFORE major damage is down to our hatchery, but more importantly, our WILD SALMON runs (keep in mind, sea lion's don't look for an adipose).

Even the single cell bouncing around in my head has enough sense to realize there are countless other problems salmon have to contend with. My question to you is:

Why is the problem with sea lion's at the dam taking nearly 3,000 lbs of salmon a day a less valid a cause than say dam removal, gill netters, habitat destruction and so on? (Note: I stayed VERY conservative with 3,000lbs, just for doubters out there. I'd venture to say it is as high as 6,000lbs+)

[steelbiten]

I have no faith in politicians, liberal judges, dams disapearing, or Sea Lion's taking their 3% quota. But nice try at changing the thread!

[fishinpox]

Sheesh, that's all I hear.

[steelhead22]

"the owner of this site does not want any more sealion threads, so why is that so hard to comprehend? Or is stressing her out your idea of the right thing to do? Every concievable aspect of this issue has been covered and recovered dozens of times over the past few weeks. Don't you think it time to let it die?"

I don't want to stress anyone out here. Of course that's not what anyone's trying to do, but here's one more VERY important question I have to ask:

What is this site here for?

I think one of the great things about this site is that it gives a platform to reach 1000's with the problems that we face in our sport. It's why I joined and I know why a lot of other people joined this site. If we stop bringing up the current issue's that we face today with our salmon runs, hasn't this site then lost one of it's most important contributions to the sport, not to mention one of the main reasons it was created?

[Phillip Smesrud]

All the newscasts refer to the Ballard locks problem and they talk about how they removed herschel and how he kept swimming back but they don't advertise the final solution which was "donating" herschel to sea world. So, we have a proven solution which is to "donate" offending sea lions to aquariums around the world. Win win solution for all. Anybody know a contact down at the Newport aquarium? I'd be willing to spend some time trying writing letters and making phone calls to get the aquarium adoption happening.

I just looked at the link to the article and they actually do reference moving the sea lions to sea world but this has not been mentioned on the news.

[steelbiten]

That's how these threads get shut down, someONE insults someone then someone defends the guy insulted and the Mods shut it down. Same MO everytime. I don't blame someONE for using the tactic. It's just a shame that someone has to defend themselves againts insults when this topic is discussed, calmly and rationally.

[freespool]

Quote:

freespool- "Real problems"? Like what?...

Dams, in particular, Bonneville? Good luck in getting them to take down that dam since it is the main power source for the Portland Metro area and beyond.

Steelhead22, you have made my point. Nobody is suggesting we take out Bonneville Dam, or any other main stem Columbia River Dam. The dam removal idea is for the lower four Snake River dams. The problem with the main stem CR dams is how they are operated, not their exsistance.
Judge Redden is going to rule today whether to overturn, for the second time, the government's biological opinion that dam operations pose "no jeopardy" to endangered salmon.
See where I'm going with this? Do you see the real threat to our salmon runs? It's our own government that poses the greatest threat to our salmon runs, not the sealions. But that would take some thinking to figure out, as opposed to blaming sealions, which takes no thinking. :grin:


salmon hugger

[steelhead22]

I made a point in my post to explain that I understood this, and that in fact, I agree with you on this. I realize the dams are the main problem (who doesn't, even us single cell brained guys do), didn't I say that the dams created this problem?

Never-the-less, it IS a problem, and a valid one at that. There was no need to start insult people's intelligence for discussing it, was there?

"The problem with the main stem CR dams is how they are operated, not their exsistance."

You need to email or PM me where you got this information or how you came to such a conclusion. I would argue differently, behind the idea that anyway you try to "operate" a dam it is still harmful to the environment. It's an unnatural barrier created by man...never a good thing.

Well, my single cell brain just realized that this topic is getting way off base (thanks freespool). I would hope that in the future we could start another thread when we want to discuss a different topic than the poster wanted to discuss.

A genius such as yourself, freespool, surely can grasp what a pain it is to have your thread hijacked by yet another extremely condesending member of Ifish.

[Just_learning]

the season is closed. The sealions arent taking any more of your fish. They arent stealing them off your lines. And they are thinking of ways to deal with them. Leave it to the professionals, and go hit the Willamette or some of its Tribs. Better yet, go out side and just get a line wet! Whether its a pond or a puddle, just go out side...the freaking sun is shining...its hard looking out my window and seeing it so nice

[freespool]

Steelhead22, the point is sealions pose the least threat to our salmon runs. So why should we give them center stage? Why focus all the energy into something at the bottom of the list? Yet we seem to turn a blind eye to the real issues. Does this seem logical to you? That we should bring this concept to the forefront of our saving salmon battle? I think that is a recipe for failure.
We can contunue this debate at the next salmon meeting, don't think I've seen you at any of the past ones. But I'm sure you plan on attending the next one, you can't miss the announcment, it's always pinned to the top of the fishing board.


salmon hugger

[steelhead22]

"the point is sealions pose the least threat to our salmon runs."

Is that right? And your sources for this conclusion?

"Why focus all the energy into something at the bottom of the list?"

A lot of these other "real issues" were at the "bottom of the list" at one time as well.

The sea lions are taking "center stage" right now because it's a problem that is FINALLY coming to a head. We (sportfishers, commercials, etc) who fish a lot, have realized this growing problem for some time, it just didn't get the "air time" it deserved. It started years ago with one, cute little seal at Bonny. Now there are over 100 there and they are in the ladders. It's interesting how sometime's you can see a problem coming, but no one (the gov't) will take action until it's escalates into a HUGE problem. BTW- why are the bio's concerned about this non-issue?

Look, I know you're a smart guy, but there are those of us out there that have the ability to be concerned about more than ONE issue regarding our salmon runs at a time. I'm as concerned about dam removal/management, habitat destruction, commercial fisheries, etc as you are. I also have enough brain capacity to realize that for the first time in WAY TOO LONG, this sea lion issue is getting some press. The opportunity to make your voice heard on this issue is NOW, while the government, F&W, is taking a look at it and before there are 500 sea lions at Bonneville desimating the salmon runs. All the other problems have been established, and actions are being taken to correct them (if you want to talk about these, start a new thread), this is a new one to add to the fire. It deserves some attention.

[freespool]

Steelhead22, you are going to join the dozen or so ifishers that do attend the salmon meetings on a regular basis, right? I encourage you to attend and learn about all the issues. I think you could be a very fine salmon advocate, attending the meetings will enrich your salmon knowledge beyond your wildest dreams. I look forward to seeing you there.


salmon hugger

[Notchless]

Please let me offer a few observations. The Corps observed in 2004 that the sealions observed at BON and BON tailrace BRZ only consumed 2.1% of ALL the spring chinook crossing Bonneville. That is not insignificant by any measurement, just look at the non-treaty spring impact of 2% that is split between sport and commercial fisheries. Its anyone's guess as to the consumption between Astoria and Bonneville but one has to think that it is at least that much. The other issue looming for us sport fishers is some of that loss between Astoria and Bonneville is due to our sport gear. We hang those springers out on a string for the sea lions, that is a fact and technically that should be accounted for and applied to the impacts. Its the same logic this thread and other ones like it are lumping onto the dams.

Your other point about the dams doesn't have much to do with this year's lack of returns. We had over 16 thousand jacks counted last year. Those fish survived the dams and its anyone's guess as to why the 2-salt fish are not showing up. Its probably a combinition of alot of factors already mentioned but it is not, as I heard on NPR because of poor outmigration conditions in 2001. We have a full adult cohort already for those fish and people in our community who are professing a connection between 2001 spring juvenile outmigration and 2005 returns are simply wrong and it is sad to see such lies spread recently I think because of the court case pending. Just read op-ed in the Oregonian today. Oh and by the way why aren't the Willamette fish showing up? Look at the passage numbers compared to last year and the pattern is very similar to that on the CR. Just my 2bits.

[Jennie@ifish]

I'm so pleased that there are people on ifish who can explain themselves without the use of personal attacks.
It really makes me happy that even though others might stoop to using personal slams, others are able to ignore them, and carry on an intelligent conversation despite it all .
Thank you for that. :smile:
Jen

[OceanBlue]

How about them Halibut?

[steelbiten]

Well done Jen!

Keep at it! (ie. salmon hugging)

[Phillip Smesrud]

I agree with Jennie. Focus on the problems, not on the people. No name calling or back stabbing.
Critique ideas, not people and show respect for the views of others. It's easy to get worked up but lets not take it out on each other. The sport of fishing depends on all of us working together, sharing information and education, speaking out when you see wrongdoing, keeping only your share and respecting the rules and regulations. Maybe we need a three strikes you're out rule for iFish. Three personal attacks and you're gone. Membership revoked. Any thoughts?

[Notchless]

I'll be the first to agree that we need to focus upon the problems, however, sometimes the problems are the misinformation that the PEOPLE are conveying to the public. Case in point is the issue of linking the lack of return of spring chinook to the 2001 juvenile outmigration and subsequently the Dams. To me the term 'personal attack' is a pretty strong assertion and as far as I can recall (because I cant see my original thread) I mearly stated that I would probably regret entering this debate (which given the chastising I received, I was right!) Lots of folks feel strongly about one or many reasons why the runs are in the toilet, but to me focusing solely on the system of dams is myopic and doing so with the wrong 'facts' is even worse. In this debate, however, we are dealing with biological 'facts' and some real gaps in our understanding relative to the research which makes for ripe grounds for anyone to form an opinion and run with it. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[steelhead22]

<sorry, no last shots. If you have a personal comment, please convey it by e-mail or private message.>

EDITED:

Pete and Jenny. Sorry about that last one.

[steelbiten]

That's better........ Just back away from the computer...........slowly.......slowly........ Were all friends here........... :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Im glad this is being made into such an issue. Things need done and need done now not in a couple years when the damage has already been done. The more people that know and understand more about this the better support there will be.

...and what will complaining on a fishing forum and doing nothing else accomplish? Nothing that's what!
Tell you what Jon, if you attend an ODFW meeting please come up to me and introduce yourself. I'll buy you a beer
Here is some more redundancy for you.Sea lions are not the only problem facing Columbia river spring salmon returns. They are not the most important problem either AND while they are indeed a problem they will turn out to be one of the most difficult problems to solve.

[bobberdown9321]

thats depressing but if they make one id buy a seal tag

[MasterCaster]

and what will complaining on a fishing forum and doing nothing else accomplish? Nothing that's what!

Well it lets MANY other people have an idea of things that are going on that they otherwise may never hear about. Who are you to say I or others do nothing else? There are many other ways to make a difference than just attending meetings. Just because I dont go to each and every meeting (I have been to some) doesnt mean I do nothing.

Tell you what Jon, if you attend an ODFW meeting please come up to me and introduce yourself. I'll buy you a beer

Thanx but no thanx.

If you want to discuss this any further take it to PM. Im done on this thread.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Claybear]

Somebody's forcing me to read this post, I just know they are. :lurk:

[freespool]

Quote:

There are many other ways to make a difference than just attending meetings


MasterCaster, I know Pete has found himself standing alone at a salmon meeting, and I've had it happen as well. Let me tell you it's not a good feeling. Apathy among sportfishers is common place, even when very important fishing issues are at stake.
The number one problem facing sportfishers is no representation at crucial salmon meetings. When we here on ifish can muster 12 members to a meeting, out of a membership of over 8k, that to me is apathy. No bodies at the meetings = less fishing opertunities, so showing up at the meetings is very important, if we indeed want to save salmon. If we got a thenth of the passion I've seen over the sealions, channeled into the next salmon meeting, I'd be a happy man.


salmon hugger

[steelhead22]

Amen Stew, you said exactly what I was thinking but having a hard time articulating.

[steelhead22]

freespool- Let me start by saying, I completely agree with your LAST post.

I must ask, what do you guys do? Are you guys retired?

Every meeting I've planned on going to would have resulted in my missing WORK. What can a person that has to work to support themself do to help out?

I would be willing to bet that MOST of us on this forum are going to work or school just about every day of the week. Fishing isn't our livelyhood, which is probably the main reason why you aren't seeing a lot of us at these meetings. It's a lot easier for the commercial guys to show up to a meeting, because that's their job. It a lot easier for the biologists to show up to a meeting, because it's their job. It's a lot easier for the guides to show up...well, I think you see where I'm going with this. I enjoy fishing, I want great salmon runs, but if it means that I have to miss a rent payment, I'm going to have to pass on the meeting and go to work. Don't get me wrong, fish and fishing are very important to me, but it isn't my life, it's a hobby, a RECREATIONAL SPORT that I enjoy. Unfortunately for those of us that work for a living, that puts it way down the list of "MUST DO'S" for the day.

It's really unfortunate that you would stoop so low as to bring this into the arguement. It really makes those of us out there who truly wish they could do more, feel even worse about not being able to do so.

[freespool]

Quote:

I must ask, what do you guys do? Are you guys retired?


Steelhead22, as a matter of fact I am retired. During my working career, I took countless days off to go fishing. There is usually ample notice to the upcoming meetings, so a person can adjust there work schedule. This may surprise you , but guides don't attend the meetings in force either. There are meetings that do occur at night, but the turn out doesn't reflect any better on sportfishers attendance. Ask yourself this question, have I taken a day off to go fishing? If the answer is yes, then arrangments could be made to attend.
I've had a very productive fishing life so far, so I think it's time to give back something to the fish. I'm now a salmon advocate, I belong to NSIA, Save Our Wild Salmon, and others. I've attended many meetings over the past 2yrs.I've even testified on your behalf to the legislature on HB 2011, a bill sponcered by NSIA, that would have greatly restricted the gillnet fishery. I recently attended the salmon 101 symposium, and was the only ifisher there. We are going to have to work together with the commercials, the sportsfishers, the Tribes and the greens if we are going to succeed in protecting our salmon runs. Acually the greens are the people responsible for getting everyone to work together. I guess my point is get involved and get educated on the real salmon issues. Focusing on one issue is not going to get it done, not showing up at the meetings is not going to get it done. Get involved, get educated and get active. Or get ready to play golf. :grin:


salmon hugger

[steelhead22]

"Ask yourself this question, have I taken a day off to go fishing?"

Yes, I have, but that was when I was in college. Then the real world came up and slapped me in the face...actually, it was a solid straight right. A day off of work for me, a guy that takes home about $80 a day and happy to do it, could mean the difference between eating "normal" food, or eating 39 cent canned tuna and Cup-O-Noodles for 2 weeks. Not to mention, it doesn't go over well with the boss. Call me a workaholic, but I WON'T miss work if I'm not death-bed sick. It's just the way I am and the way I was raised. My father didn't take a single sick day in his 28 years of working, I probably won't either.

"Focusing on one issue is not going to get it done..."

Of course it won't, but that's what the thread was about. The thread was about ONE ISSUE, sea lions, so that's what we were discussing. It wasn't about dams, or gillnets, or anything else. If you wanted to talk about those things I would have, but instead you jump into the post calling everyone talking about the subject "single cell brained".

Look, like I said before, most of us on here have the brain capacity to be concerned about ALL of the issues that salmon face, but we only have one mouth, or set of hands, so we can only DISCUSS one at a time. Open another post about dams and we'll talk it. I promise to treat you with the respect you failed to give Dragfreedrift and stay on topic.

[steelbiten]

Well done! Question? Sorry... off the subject.... Are the meeting times and places posted some where on this board for easy access? Are they recorded? If we can't go to the meetings, you know, bring them to us.