Are we becoming paranoid?

[Joe Schwab]

What's all this crap about killer cougars running amock in Oregon and attacking people? Don't get me wrong, I think they should be harvested like any other critter. But ever since the dog issue got canned by the voters there has been this cry that someday, someone is going to get attacked by a bear or a cougar in Oregon. Duh!!!
More people are killed by careless hunters than will ever be killed by cats. Even Rush Limbaugh got on the bandwagon one day pronouncing that wild coyotes had moved into a suburb of Atlanta and were about to start eating little kids. Now I like Rush but!!!!!
Anyone who has spent any time in the great state of Alaska knows that bears, moose and people live in extremely close proximity and occasionally have confrontations. Often the bear or moose wins and ADF&G simply goes out and removes the troublesome animal or in cases where the human was at fault gives the critter a free pass. Let's face it, it improves the gene pool.
As the Rangers in Yellowstone told me once. The animals can be trained. People cannot.
I would like to see hunting with dogs brought back into the picture but with some restrictions.
There were some of the most despicable characters involved in hound hunting I had ever seen. The problem was the hound hunting fraternity did nothing to clean up their own sport and suffered the consequences. Steelheaders did it, OHA did it, DU did it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there are people out there using this hysteria to scare people into bringing the hounds back. Maybe it will work, who knows?
I just think they are going about it the wrong way. My .02 worth. I just think we need to be honest about the great outdoors and the critters that provide the action. You really haven't lived till you have been within spittin distance of a grizzly and had him "let" you walk away from him.
[img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] :shocked:

[birdhunter]

All this crap about cougars running around in the woods and attacking people is true! I was attacked by a cougar in September of 97. I was lucky enough to have a gun and had to shoot it a scant 7 ft away. Yelling at the cat and waving my arms sure didn't help then. I should also mention that the attack occured about 1/4 mile away from a Boy Scout Summer Camp. Just imagine what a different story this would be if the cat had decided to go after one of those smaller and defenseless campers. I'm sorry if my "hysteria" scares people into bringing back hounds.

I've seen several other cougars since then. If they are doing their thing and I'm doing mine, then fine. I don't want every one exterminated, but I do think we need some new management in Oregon. The fact that the animal rights groups were able to use "emotion" to appeal to the Portland crowd is what bothres me most about the issue. No science behind their measure.

I also agree that the hound crowd needs to clean-up their image. I too have worked in the F&W law enforcement field (though for not nearly as long!) and have seen some pretty ugly stuff. I do think a return to hound hunting w/ license requierments would work. You have to take tests and get licensed to trap in the state. Why not put some of the same restrictions to hunt cougars with hounds. Letting rednecks run around in the woods w/ their dogs is just as bad as having no viable management. Bottom line is, the current system we have will not work. I just hope it doesn't take someone getting killed to change it.

[Lives_to_fish]

I am against creating game laws by initiative. It is wrong to manage a resource like our game animals by emotion, it needs to be done based on real scientific evidence. That’s why we pay people that have gone to school and conduct studies to set the rules. We start putting things on the ballot and it makes people feel like they are qualified to make these decisions. Now we have people that don’t even get off the pavement except to mow the lawn, making decisions based on propaganda commercials that pop up in October and November.

[MarlinMark]

Lives to fish is right on the money. It doesn't matter what you and I "feel" or even think about the issue. Put game biology back in the hands of the game biologists. I don't care what peoples opinions are about our biologists' abilities. I like their qualifications a lot better than the voting masses.

As for the attacks...well how about the two bow hunters in the Desolation unit a couple of years ago, that were chased around by numerous cats on consecutive days. I read about their interesting hunt in the Oregonian (a letter to the editor, I believe.) There are many more. All of the states that have outlawed hounds are experiencing the same thing. In Flathead Lake MT. the high school track star was dragged off of the track and was being eaten by a juvenile male. When the authorities showed up with lights, dogs a guns, the cat wouldn't even run. It stayed there over the body, snarling at them. Or the family in Ca. that was hiking along a trail and heard something behind them. They looked back to see a cougar carrying off there full grown labrador. It could have been there 5 year old who was with them.

Just a little bit of biology. A young cougar does not have a home range once it's mother forces it away from her. Said young cougar is protected by her, and in her home range while she is raising it. But as soon as she runs the young ones off they have to establish their own home range. Males need a larger home range than females. A juvenile male that has just been run off by it's mother is literally standing on enemy turf. The dominant male in the area will kill this young cougar the first chance he gets. This young cougar must travel and establish a home range with food, cover and most of all no threat from a dominant cougar. I believe the problem cats are usually, more often than not, these juvenile males. But that really doesn't matter because an over population is just that. Too many cougars fighting (literally) over not enough land. This causes a little more contact with humans because the cougars are looking for turf in suburban areas. Take away the learned fear of man and it doesn't look good. Fear of man is something that mother cougars used to teach there young. Now we have mother cougars raising kittens that have never known a fear of man. I know that cats are seen a lot more now than when they were harvested more effectively.

I would encourage anyone who does not believe any of this to speak with a big game biologist who studies the animals and there ecology. My hunting partner called an eastern OR biologist enquiring about our upcoming spring bear hunt. He was quickly informed of the kill ratio of mature deer by lions. This ratio is not in it's normal range. The mortality rates of healthy, adult deer are a lot higher than normal. The vast majority of these animals' deaths were from cougars.

I sincerely hope that people can keep a level head about this issue. It was bad enough when this was a ballot measure. The propagand was terrible. I don't think propaganda has a place in biology. Maybe politics, but not science. The issue is not about feelings and emotions. It is game management. I can't imagine where we would be in this economy if we let the masses vote on the issues that, say, Mr. Greenspan has to manage.

Have a nice day,

Mark

[Joe Schwab]

Birdhunter, I'm not doubting you a bit when you say you were attacked or confronted by a cougar. I also know of people who were confronted or attacked by deer, elk, and any number of so called domestic animals. I'd like to see some stricter legislation on exotic animals in this state. I accompanied the late Dave Siddon on a case involving some yokel who had two black leopards in Washington County in a homemade pen. Dave was a recognized expert on big cats and stated this was one of the most dangerous situations he had ever seen. We had to tranq the cats and one died enroute to the zoo. All I'm saying is there is suddenly this hysteria about cougars. No we should not wait until someone gets killed and people should be aware that they can legally kill any animal threatening their safety or someone else's.
Initiatives are a poor way to determine wildlife laws but when a situation got as contentious as this one did and the participants refused to "clean up their own backyard" the inevitable happened.
I can tell you some horror stories that went on in the hound hunting fraternity. Bear cubs being tortured to death so their dogs could be properly trained. When relating that incident to a legitimate bear hunter, he shrugged it off, saying, "you don't understand how hard it is to train thes dogs." Bull!!
I have no problem with fair chase hunting, radio collar locators and use of radios. But these so called hunters frequently went home and left their dogs running. I know I picked up my share of them over the years and reurned them to their owners. Fortunately for them I didn't turn them in to the dog pound. I know some landowners that did and it isn't cheap getting them bailed out.

Propaganda doesn't work regardless of which side it comes from. Right now we are getting this info from talk show hosts who don't know their a$$ from a gopher hole. I heard one popular local host proclaim the other day that since the initiative it is illegal to shoot a cougar. What the heck does that mean?
I hope we get hound hunting back, but with some serious rules of accountability. Our wildlife deserve no less.

[Dogfish]

We didn't see this cougar, but he sure was interested in my son and I. This was one cougar track that "WAS NOT IN MY BOOTPRINTS" but the rest mostly were. This cat tracked my son and I for about 1/4 mile before it turned off to pursue some elk that had crossed the river after we had passed. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. This was near the Queets River on the Olympic Peninsula.

[bigshark]

I don't remember if it was four or five years ago I shot a 3x3 buck on the breaks of big canyon in the Imnaha unit during bow season. I dragged the carcus up the canyon wall to the top and went for my rig perhaps a mile away. As taught by my dad I took my undershirt off and placed it on a deadfall
next to the animal. Dad always said that would keep critters away because of your scent. When I got back with the rig the buck was gone. Then I saw it, a small cougar eating on a ham.It had pulled the buck only a few yards down the hill and into the shadows of some brush. I shouted and sailed my hat at it. It just watched me. I walked over and picked up a dead limb about 4 feet long and hurled it. The limb went over the top of this young cat and it just looked at the limb as it flew by. I was really pumped and threw a small stone about the size of an apple. The cat shot down the slope and that was that. I told a buddy who often hunts with me that lives in Woodenville Wa., he was not surprized he said.
Then he showed me his pictures of a large female lion he had to shoot in Sleds Springs when he stumbled upon its half eaten kill. He was bow hunting and found a 4 pt buck the lion had killed and when he approched it he was surprized to find Mz. Kitty which he had not seen ready to spring on him. She moved toward him in a crouch with ears back and making a low whining noise. He figured he was had so took the shot at about 5 paces or so. He was lucky with the frontal shot. The arrow entered just in front of the shoulder and went through the length of her. Afraid to not tell the authorities what he had done he called the shariffs office in Enterprise and explained what had happened. He was told to leave the cat where it was and go ahead and hunt. End of story. My point in telling you these two events is that the cats are not afraid of you anymore. As they become more numerous and with the lack of fear of humans, this has to become more common and I doubt that the two legged creature will always win.

[ 03-08-2002, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

[Joe Schwab]

This is a great discussion. I don't disagree with a thing that has been said. Some very interesting experiences have been brought out and the recurring theme I have heard is that most of the confrontations occur during archery season. I know one OSP game officer who was followed back to camp by a cougar and when it got close enough he was able to stick it with an arrow although it was never recovered. He was shaken by the incident also.
Is it time to consider allowing archery hunters to carry sidearms? Other states do and it has become much simpler to detect illegal kills by archers. I personally don't believe it is that much of an enforcement problem.
I'd like to see hound hunters back under some very strict guidelines. If we can require goose hunters to take classes and check in and out we can have some type of reporting system for hound hunters.
I just don't want to go back to the old way of doing things and have our wildlife kept in check by a bunch of lawless scoundrels. Guides have to comply with rules or lose their licenses. Some of these guys were in it for the money and running illegal guiding operations.
We live in an initiative state and there is not much that can be done about that. Public perception is important and going around beating your chest that voters don't belong in game management won't change a thing. By the way how did we get steelhead classified as a game fish? ODFW Biologists sure didn't do it.
Now if we could just figure out a way to increase our deer herds on the west side to the point that they become the problem. Hmmmm!