Why Duskys At All

[bigshark]

Only a few years ago the Cackler goose was in danger and if you shot one it was a $250 fine.
Now they are abundant. So why not make the Dusky a $250 fine and they won't be shot any more than the Cackler was. Sure there were honest mistakes,
sure there were some that never made it to the check station. I have a problem with the current rule which allowes everyone who would take one to get off with their card pulled for the rest of the year. I resent the constent threat that if we
aren't good boys and girls we won't have a goose season at all in the zone. How about if your not able to tell the difference stay home or it will cost you more beer money than you want to pay.
The guy who was going to take his kid to the island to shot a goose but got closed out on, the
guys who have young families to support and can't
really afford a private spot, the guys that are still in school or those of us that for whatever reason aren't in a position to hunt anywhere but the public lands. These people are getting screwed for the actions of those who aren't careful or don't give a damn. What would happen if you shot any other gamebird that you were not suppose to. For example a hen pheasant instead but you claim it was poor light and you knocked it down too far out to tell its sex.....Tough Bananas. You get the ticket and you pay....Can't afford it? Then don't do it...shoot what you are sure about.....can't tell the difference? Learn or stay home till you can. In addition your name will be posted in the sports section if you are a repeat offender and a progressive fine as well. If I have offended someone.....if the shoe fits wear it!!!!!

[Dogfish]

I think the biggest issue concerning the dusky goose is that there is so much variation in nature that there are times when a dark goose is actually a taverner, and a lighter goose is a dusky. The only real way to tell is by sampling DNA, but the second best method is to measure the bill length. Both of these methods are impractical in the field. The gray scale is the least accurate method.

The skill required to tell the difference between a hen and a rooster is less than that required to tell the difference between a tav and a dusky. Sometimes we have to step up, take responsibility for wildlife conservation, and deal with it.

USFWS, ODFW, and WDFW came up with a solution that would allow the most hunting days afield, while still protecting the duskys. They could have just shut the hunt down. The numbers were not as low as they were with cacklers, so they didn't shut it down entirely.

Last year Washington state hunters did an excellent job of staying under the quota of dusky geese, I don't have the info for Oregon.

Best I can tell you is use logic in your arguments, not belligerence, and you'll reach people more effectively.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Even with all of the genetic differences in geese if you live by the rule, of when in doubt don't shoot then you should be fine. The 250 dollar fine isn't a bad idea at all. If nothing else it would keep the morons from turning them in. ( I am in no way advocating that). Heres another great OFDW thought.. A friend of mine killed an Aluetian last week and showed me pictures. For those not familiar, They were on the threatned species list for quite a while, they may have been de-listed recently.. (not sure) he took it in to the check station and there reply was.. Theres no Aluetians over here thats just a cackler with a 1 in white band of feathers around its neck :whazzup: . I have seen them a couple of times in baskett slough and ankeny. Anyways, My hope is that with the tight regs and people sticking to them, that some day, we can kill duskys like we can kill cacks now. So then all you S/I guys will have to worry about is the morons bringing in swans .

Tilla, I may take you up on that marion bet..

[Get Bit]

WRO,

Mature Cacklers sometimes get a white ring around their neck and can easily be confused with an Aleutian. Have heard this from several folks that know the biology well. That doesn't mean there can't be any Aleutians on this side of the coast range. My question has always been when is a judge
going to get involved and say exactly the same thing that they did in then case of the wild Coho vs. the hatchery Coho. That a Canada Goose is a Canada Goose. This would really screw things up huh ? I have never heard that DNA differences exist or not.As far as fining is concerned, I think you would just turn people into criminals rather then turning in their goose card and checking geese at the station. A little less threatening without a fine and we know a little better whats being shot. Just my take.

Get Bit

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Get Bit, I guess you are right.. It would proably turn alot of guys into criminals. I would be willing to bet that there is a 5 to 1 ratio of duskys shot to duskys turned in anyways. Some by simple mistake , but others do it knowingly and spitefully. I overhear people at my work talking about it all of the time. It seems that for a few all the permit system has taught them is which birds to bring into the check station and which to breast in the field. I think that for the system to really work, we need to police our own. Stop taking our friends that shoot first and then identify, and turn in those who habitually break the law, Friends or not.
Get Bit, I am trying to get a hold of that picture of the Aleutian goose (cackler as the biologists would say) I will try to scan it in later this week. I am not trying to start an arguement with anyone, but it fits every aleutian description I've read and seen, The neck band was much to wider than I have ever seen on a cack.

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: wilamatteriveroutlaw ]</p>

[MoJet Driver]

I'm still not buying the boundry thing over biology. Call me a hard head if you want. When you see a Black Brant sitting smack dab in the middle of McNary of SI public lands... is it a brant or a cackler. No white cheek patches but white on the neck, what do we call it? A starling? Seen it.

I realize that this is to an extreme but, dammit all, birds can't read a map! That being a constant, how can geography be the judgement for the harvest?

If you can't recognize the thing, (thanks WRO) don't pull the trigger!

And for those that have taken a dusky for a walk (not to come back), I hope you are happy with your stellar identification skills. Suck it up or just go buy some beef, so that the rest of us can hunt.

[bigshark]

Dogfish, as you may know the season lasted all of two days on Sauvie Island public land. If we have a season next year it can't get much shorter can it? I don't doubt that the DOFW is well intended and has done all it can to make the season as long as possible. So why is it we have closed the season the morning of day 2? I'm glad to hear that the hunters in WA have done well in compling with the laws and have enjoyed full seasons. This is not the case on S.I. We have a people problem which has dashed the hopes and plans of many. I have heard your position for almost 20 years now and the number of days to fill the quota and close the season gets shorter every year. Something has to be done that changes the actions of the few who are ruining it for many. There is no good excuse for what occurred here last week.
Something is wrong when the problem just lives on and slowly gets worse. Your post does not suggest
something to solve the problem and I ask you now to do so. I'm not certain mine is very good but I can't think of anything better than hitting them in the pocketbook. Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm not looking for a scrap, but an idea or plan to stop what is happening. Someone
out there must be able to help. Hope your season is a good one.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Bigshark, I think that there isn't alot for ofdw to do as far as the S/I public lands situation. Alot of the problem is that people are greedy. A lot of us hunt quite a bit.. But then you get the guys from town, who either bring an uncertified friend out who shoots the first goose he sees, Or maybe this will be one of the only times they get to go this year, So losing their card for the season isn't a real loss. I would like to know how long the offenders had there card? and How many birds they have had checked in the last year, 3 years? I would be willing to venture that the ones of us who check in 20 birds + a season account for a the minority of duskys checked in. The problem is the guy who got his card 2 years back, didn't hunt last year and dosen't really give a s**t about the resource or opportunity it gives the rest of us. All he or she, wants is to kill a bird. Heres a solution to this problem, if you don't turn a bird that season then you have to retake the test.. Sure a couple of us will have terrible luck and not get a bird all season, But the test at most takes 1 night out of the off season out of your hands. + if you don't hunt the season before, a refresher will do you good for the upcoming one.

And for the rest of us, is it really worth it to give up the rest of the season for 1 bird?

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: wilamatteriveroutlaw ]</p>

[MoJet Driver]

Hey, I thought of a really neat thing. We could get in a discussion on whether the dusky is a hatchery or a wild goose, and whether or not they cross-breed! Skamania strain maybe...

For Washington hunters, is it a sport goose or a food goose?

OOOOOOOOOOooooooh, I've had one too many and I'm, out of here tonight.

Don't worry, I'm going to hate myself as much as you hate me in the morning.

[bigshark]

WRO, I understand your thoughts and have no doubt that greed is a part of this. I don't know why they do it for certain and the reasons may be more than we think. It just seems to me that if its tough on the wallet they might stop, but I don't know if that would stand up to a test or not.

Mojet have one for me while your at it. Don't mind me either as I was mad last night and it bothered me enough I couldn't sleep. So I got up and blew it off my chest. The guy with the kid that had the reservation and got closed-out on the hunt got to me. I raised two boys and used the public land a lot so I know what it would be like to see disappointment in a youngsters eyes all because some knothead didn't think of anything but himself. Have a good time tonight,
nobody is going to hate you in the morning.

[Dogfish]

Two days is all that hunt lasted????? I hadn't heard that. I can certainly understand your frustration. Up here we have different goose zones, so don't you. Can't you just move on to another spot in another zone? I have at least three areas where I hunt, in two different counties.

[Bounty Hunter]

Dogfish. Sauvie Island is the only totally public area. You have to have permission to hunt on private land for 99% of the other zones. As I'm finding out, it's rather tough...

[MoJet Driver]

I hear ya BigShark. With the exception of a little plot of ground that Flathead has secured for us in the past several years, all my hunting takes place on public lands.

Maybe a new thread should be started: How many different ways can you spoil somebody else's hunt?

Naahh, bad idea!!!

[Labsforme]

Bigshark, I gave the info on Oak Island as an FYI.
Fortunately I do have private property the we hunt
(boy is 19)and it actually worked out better for geese.I feel sorry for those people who don't have options and now can't hunt geese on the island WMA.Looking at the Dusky situation biologically because of the change in the nesting area without artificially keeping the population up it will be diminishing returns.They have started additional populations on some islands
so maybe some day we'll be able to hunt normally.
In California they closed the whole lower east side Sacramento valley because of the Cackler problem at the time.So for now we take what they give us and feel fortunate.

[bigshark]

Labsforme, glad to know you have other options and that your son is 19. He is a man now and I over-reacted in my first post. I invisioned a boy with his first shotgun and maybe his first draw on a good place to shot that goose that he had been dreaming about. Dads are dads, we act and teach by example and don't show much emotion when down deep we may be as enraged as a she-bear when something threatens her cubs. I let my imagination
run wild and came out ready to fight......can you believe that? When your old enough to collect social security you should act like it. At least thats what my wife says. I can't remember why! :grin:

[MetalHead]

Watch for a change in the Dusky saga soon. The University of Alaska is going to publish a DNA study on Canada Geese that is sure to raise some eyebrows. From what they have determined there is probibly NO reason for quota's on Dusky's as they are geneticaly identical to a couple of other so called sub-species with different physical characteristics. This would lead some to believe that just as people are predisposed to different characteristics, (short, tall, thin, fat, black hair, blonde hair, big nose, small nose) it would seem that geese are the same. I assure you it will be an interesting read and will stir up a lot of $^!* amoung biologists.

[Lured In]

Metalhead, do you have a link or something to this "breaking news"? Just curious.

[Snake9t9]

Lured in - Do a serch on line for "dusky canada goose". You will find many references to the study mensioned above.
The facts are this... The MAIN cause for the downturn in the dusky population was a NATURAL disaster...not hunting. Just about every other animal I can think of that has been listed as threatened, endangered ect., ect. had a decline in population due to something MAN did to cause the decline. Not so with the dusky. In this case it seems to me that we are playing GOD to try and "SAVE" this small population (overall) of Canada goose.
Using the same guidelines for establishing a "sub-species" in geese, but applying them to people, Each different race would be a "SUB_SPECIES". Ever heard someone refer to any human race as a "caucasion sub-species of humans" or whatever? The results of the DNA tests should show that hardly any of the duskies DNA varies from that of any other canada goose and that it infact is just a color variation of a Tav. (sub-species?) Lets all hope the results come out in our favor.
One more thing to ponder, If animal rights activists wanted to limit hunting for a particular type of animal, wouldn't it be easier to do if they were able to split the overall population of that animal up into smaller groups (sub-species) and then say that because of the low population number of that species that hunting should be restricted or stopped all together for the overall species due to the difficulties involved in identifying the anmial in the field?
Hmmmm...that snow goose has an offly short bill and isn't the black on it just a bit lighter than that other snow????

[bigshark]

How many geese can a wintering ground hold before nature takes over and disease spreads through the flocks and there are few if any left? The taking of a goose on S.I. 30 years ago was a rare event.
Ducks outnumbered geese. At the peak the duck population would reach 250,000 while there were
5000 or so geese. More refuges were created but this doesn't explain whats happened to the ratio
of ducks to geese. If I recall correctly there were fewer than 15000 Taverners in the valley before the AK earthquake. Now there are over 100,000 on S.I. alone plus the remaining valley population. How many can it hold before all the geese are put in danger? Maybe its a lot more, I don't know. Can anyone on the board shed some light on this?