Jet divers - Buzz vs. Guides

[Rimshot]

I sat through a seminar yesterday with Buzz Ramsey and he spoke a little about backtrolling with jet divers. He said to match the diver size to the water depth you are fishing and don't let it hit the bottom. He said if it's hitting bottom reel up a few cranks and watch it. If it's still hitting bottom reel up a few more cranks and so on. Makes sense to me.

However, when I first started springer fishing up at the dam I saw that every guide up there was using the Jumbo 50 divers. They were letting them out quite a ways behind their boat and were only in like 12-15' of water. Obviously the divers had to be slamming into the bottom. I saw them catch lots of fish. I copied this technique from then on and have caught plenty of fish using it. I figured the dropper on my diver would keep the kwik in the zone.

Buzz says that the kwiks will NOT fish right if the diver is hitting the bottom. He says if the tip of your rod is acting erratic - fix it. Don't let it fish like that. So now I'm wondering if there are more hookups to be had by fishing this way. But why are all the guides doing it the exact opposite?

So here you have the most prominent figure in NW fishing saying to do it one way and all the guides doing it exactly opposite. Why?

[FinFansea]

My .02, Buzz wants to sell his product. Guides need to produce to keep clients.

[Rubber Robin]

If they are fishing up at the dam, they could be in water that varies from 15-50'/

[slabhunter]

I believe that it's better to present your lure just above the fish. Buzz does that with a smaller diver holding at a backtoll, while the guides you see are backtrolling more down the river. As long as the lure is getting down to the right depth does it really matter?

[DowntownBrowns]

My .02, Buzz wants to sell his product. Guides need to produce to keep clients.

If I was specifically trying to sell my product, I would tell people to MAKE SURE it was slamming into the bottom- more gear lost = more gear sold!

[onstep]

Remember Buzz is a tackle salesmen. I'm also of the opinion that Buzz doesn't really know whats up with plugs. The new kwikfish have been designed by Bob Toman for example. He developed the K13 and X16 for Luhr Jensen. I think you could find a large host guides who have a much better understanding of plugs on this website. Dave Johnson has a great reputation for his Kwikfish ability. Chris Vertopoulos is fanatastic steelhead plug guy. Buzz is a name and face to sell products if you want the real deal talk to the guys who do it everyday.

[Rimshot]

As long as the lure is getting down to the righ depth does it really matter?

I'm not questioning depth at all. I know the lures are getting into the zone both ways. What I'm questioning is that he said the lure would NOT fish correctly if the diver was hitting bottom. So, if my diver is slamming the bottom does that mean my kwik is only fishing correctly for a few moments at a time(the times when the diver has bounced up off the bottom)?

I'm mostly just thinking out loud here wondering what other people have seen and experienced.

[YaHoeeFishOn]

Guides have people of all skills in their boats. They normally can't trust people to cast bait casters or have feel for bottom,or fishing skills. By have everyone use large diver and right number of pulls , they will get them into kill zone. Buzz was talking to people with higher skills to offer a beter presentation as well as sell some product .

[Ty]

Interesting....... On the Kenai many guides use the Jumbo divers w/ Kwickfish and they are always slammin' into the bottom and they are quite succesful w/ this method...

Dave Johnson was suprised that they used jumbo's on the Kenai cause it is so shallow too......

[Rimshot]

Interesting...Dave was one of the guides I saw up there using the jumbos in 14' . Of course I wasn't in his boat so I could be wrong. This was about 3-4 years ago. I saw him catch about 4 fish in as many passes.

[yukon]

We use a lot of the Jumbos on the Kenai. It is funny to watch the progression over the years. All we used to use was the little 20's. You hardly ever see one anymore. I use the Jumbo's all the time when fishing spin-n-glo and eggs. Usually in 8 to 15 feet of water. The key is the length of the leader and getting the s-n-g or cheater to the right depth. Usually we go longer when backtrolling this combination but I know a guy who uses about a 15" leader behind a jumbo and catches a lot of fish.
When I use a K-16 I usually use a 50 ft diver, the one with the single lead shot in it. Usually have a 5 to 6 ft leader to the quick fish.
An advantage to using these combinations is that you can fish slower water and longer when the tide is coming in.
On a side note it is interesting to read about what you all do and what we do. Somehow we catch fish without lemon Joy.
I sent some pictures of how I rig my single hook plugs to eyefish but he won't post them because he said you all would jump on my dirty plug. I sent him a picture of a cleaner plug, maybe he will post that!

[Rimshot]

So do you adjust your dropper length to get the lure in the zone? And I'm guessing by what you said you let your divers slam into the bottom.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Jumbo or not, there are several holes on the diver that affect how deep it dives depending on which hole you are running. Has the plastic tuning piece been replaced with pencil lead and how much lead was used?

When questioning if the plug is running correct when the diver hits the bottom, depends on how long the dropper is on the diver and how long the leader to the plug is. Which is running deeper the plug or the diver? if the plug is hitting the bottom then it probably isnt running right as Buzz says.

I think most guides have the divers out a number of passes on the reel, because they figure the doughball for the day can count up to to 8 or 12

Dont discount Buzz's fishing abilities, we all wish we could fish as much as he does.

[Rimshot]

BOE, those are all the same questions I have. There are a lot of variables there. Which makes me wonder even more why they don't just use a 20 and set it so it's just off the bottom. Then there is no guessing that everything is fishing right. Just like Buzz says.

My point is that the guides select 50's for a reason. I'm guessing they have 10's through 50's in their boxes but choose to use 50's. With so many variables using a 50 vs. using a 20 why would they mess with it? They must feel it gives them some kind of edge. What is that edge?

[cosmo]

Just a guess but 12'-15' of water sounds like the flat below the Oak Tree, or in the back channel. The big divers may be overkill on the flat and in the back channel, but just above you're usually fishing 25-40 feet at the willows and up at the deadline. Instead of changing out gear for each spot, maybe the guides just move around and use the same rig that's on the rod for every spot. Could just be a simplicity thing.

[ANDYCOHO]

Instead of changing out gear for each spot, maybe the guides just move around and use the same rig that's on the rod for every spot. Could just be a simplicity thing.

EXACTLY!

We picked up a fish today with a Jumbo Diver and Kwikfish in 12.5 feet of water.

First off, the stock Jumbo Divers come with a 6" Dropper, if you where fishing it this way and letting the diver hit the bottom, Buzz is right, the Kwikfish is not fishing right, it too is hitting the bottom.

The first thing I do, is cut off the stock 6" Dropper and put a 14" dropper on. Even in the most shallow water and fast current, my kwikfish (K-14's & K-15's) are never hitting the bottom.

[Fshklr]

I've gotta go with Andy on this one..fished with him yesterday and today with Jumbos.

We covered water from 38' to 12.5' using the Jumbos with his 14" dropper retie ..

The diver was never digging the bottom but once in awhile it may strike bottom due to running up river to move around another boat, or it may tick as you encounter a structure change, or the current intensifies from structure etc change, but for the most part..98% of the time we were in the ZONE and did pick 1 up both days with the same rigging..Jumbos, rigged 14" to k14's and 15's.

[Wood N' Fish]

I've been using one of the three different holes, (on any of the divers) that the duo lock snaps into to vary the depth, depending on conditions. Keep it simple. :whazzup:

[KROY]

ANDYCOHO,
That's what I do also. I learned from a really good guide on the Kenai, Brett's Guide Service. He taught me that same trick. You wouldn't want four novice clients trying to figure out what Buzz Ramsey is talking about every day for two months. Just rig them with a longer dropper so even if it plows once in a while, the K-fish is still fishing and you can go from 8' to whatever without having everyone messing with their reel.

Another point, how can you have a wall of plugs if everyone is cranking and letting out to keep the plug off their perceived bottom?

[abrown]

I actually take off the leader thats on the diver and put on about 15in leader on the jumbo diver. u want the bait or plug to be eye level or above the fish. A salmon will go up to strike a bait or plug they rarly go down for one. I learned this method from a guide.

[Broknt]

buzz was a guide at one time all. he still guides up on the klick and is very sucessful. but also in the last 6 years i dont think i have ever seen him back trolling at bonneville. so i think he is telling to do what the diver and quickfish are designed. when we have found that it works great with the diver dragging the bottom. its the same purpose as back bouncing eggs. just my imput on the subject.



thad

[ssteelheadsteve]

You really think Buzz has ever had a guide license ?
I think he is smarter than that.

[Twinpowered]

This may seem kind of silly but, Does any body paint their divers black, or what if any effect do the different colors have, especially those of you who use the shorter 14" leaders??????? Thx a lot ~ Twin :whazzup:

[parker]

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[David Johnson]

I've used Jumbo Divers and caught fish on them in 10 to 15 feet of water before but it does beat the crap out of the divers so I'll use #20, #30, #40 and #50 under different water conditions and depths.

The adjustable holes can be used to alter the depth that they dive as well.

If it's fast and shallow most the time I will opt out for a #20 diver.

If the water is real fast it can be a pain for people to get reeled in fast.

One other thing about a #50 Jet Diver, it can be kind of a "one size fits all". That is if it will go 40 feet than it will touch bottom in every depth less than 40. It will just get beat up more if used in shallower water than entended.

(I don't think it will actually go to 50 feet unless you use very thin like and let out enough line to tangle with some guy ten boat below you)

I also adjust my dropper length.