Anyone have the outdoor channel??

[Thick-N-Thin]

Anyone have the outdoor channel? You want to talk about baiting....now when you put out automatic feeders and a condo thats what I call baiting! Those guys are a total joke not the least bit what I call hunting. That 12 point 24" spread whitetail ya shot next to the feeder waiting for the four other 10 point bucks to move out of the way aint no trophy to me!

I'll take an ole blacktail forked horn that I've stumble through the brush walked over several ravenes and fell over a log and call it more of a trophy than any feeder buck!

Wow I feel better now!

[jberry]

How about "teaching" kids the ethical way to hunt: out of a blind on the top of a suburban! Come on, "oh wait, I think we spread some corn here this morning, there's a deer, wait for the truck to stop and then fire....."

Or how about the latest "gizmo" they're advertising for when your batteries die on your feeder or you run out of corn.... It's a small hand held unit that imitates the sound of corn coming out of the feeder.

If that's hunting, then gillnetting should be considered fishing........

[Tacklebuster]

The deer shown on the outdoor channel being shot in blinds feeding off corn are whitetails. What this state need is a program on hunting Black tailed deer. I was raised in Alabama and sitting in tree stands waiting on a good buck (White tail) to step out and start feeding out of a planted food plot was how we did it. To see roughly 20 deer a day was common. It does not seem like much sport to us hunters that work for our animals but down South, that is primarily how they are hunted. I wish that someone would run a program on the way we hunt and give the rest of the country an idea of how difficult it can be. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Capin' Dan]

Guys its this very kind of thing that cost us our hound hunting and bear baiting in this state and others.
Different areas have different rules. Texas for instance is home to over 4 million deer. They have a five deer limit and it is a proven YES PROVEN that shooting does and clearing out some of the herd is better than letting it get to big. I have seen what happens when disease sets in to a herd of deer it is not selective. This type of dissention among hunters is the very thing that the protesters are counting on to stop all hunting. Sometimes we need to just suck it up and bite our tongues.
I am a bow hunter,
I think all rifles should be banned,
Muzzleloaders think that bows and rifles should be banned.
Rifle hunters think that bows wound to many animals and should be banned.
See where I'm going with this. Just enjoy the show or turn it off and we have to get behind this and do what is right for the sport and yes it is still sport. Look at it like you would a pheasant release site these animals on most of these ranches are raised behind large game fences for the express purpose of being shot.
I am from Texas and as a kid enjoy hunting there and it is great to see all the game that comes to a feeder. Is it a sure thing definitely not some of that brush country is inaccessible and the baits are the only way to get the deer out of the brush.
We all have different opinions and we will never always like what someone else does, but for the sake of the sport and heritage we have to stick together. Archery, Rifle, Muzzleloader, baiters, hound hunters, and everyone. In some southern states spot lighting and using hounds to chase deer are legal I bite my tongue and support their heritage whether I like it or not. Lets not bash hunters from other areas that are doing what is legal in there states lets just enjoy what we have and support each other.
I'll get off my soapbox now.

Dan!

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Capin' Dan ]</p>

[jberry]

Hey Dan,

You ever catch any of those shows they do on snagging? Techniques, gear and places to go do it? I'm sure it's legal in some states out there, so why don't they do any shows on that......because it's unethical and it's the same thing with hunting over a feeder.

I have no problem with shooting does, I do have a problem with baiting, legal or not. And to market a device to simulate the sounds of a feeder, come on. If there's so many deer in Texas, then they shouldn't have any problem hunting them in fair-chase ways.

[Thick-N-Thin]

Actually what I would like to see more of is hunting the northwest. You never see see any of these host try the northwest for hunting. The only reason I can see that you don't, is that it is to hard of a hunt and way to challenging for them. Most of the hunts they show are on ranches that raise these animals to shoot. I just don't find them to be trophies (as they call them) if they are raised on a ranch.

I'm not totally against baiting.I think baitng for bear and cougar is a viable way to hunt these animals. If there are so many deer in Texas or areas where your limit is 5 then I think baiting is not necessary.

[Lured In]

I have to admit that I agree with Dan on this one. I have lived all over this great country and seen a few wacky things in the hunting world that make my stomach turn. I can't stand the bait and blind setups they use in Texas, it is beyond comprehension for me. How is this hunting? They were raised that way and they have the game populations to support it.

For those that haven't been around heavily populated whitetail areas, they are like large rodents and are a pain for many people. From my perspective this would seem to take some of the mistique away from their pursuit.

Just to add a little fun to the mix, consider the snow goose situation. Populations are skyrocketing, the tundra around Hudson Bay is dissapperaing and so what does the fish and wildlife service do? Let us use electronic calls. Is this hunting? Does this take away from the true foundation of the sport? Does this take any skill?

My point is simply that although we may not agree with it, and it seems to be divergent from that which we may have grown up with, it doesn't make it wrong. Its just different and I myself couldn't participate, but more power to those who do.

[jberry]

Backlash2

How are those backstraps tasting, oh wait, make that tag stew!

[Get Bit]

TNT,

I agree with you that the Outdoor Channel has alot of shows that that may come across as less then fair chase. I also fully agree with Capn' Dan that we cannot fully pass judgement on game management issues in states we know very little about.One would assume, by the liberal bag limits, that the eastern states have far more deer then we have in the west. In order to properly manage their animals some techniques are OK(baiting,dogs,etc.) in order to effectively and humanely harvest animals. The Outdoor Channel has also got some great shows showing western game hunting. These include the Primos shows, Eastman's, and NW Hunter, just to name a few. The shows I can't handle are the gold panning, country music, and stockcar racing. These have no place on the outdoor chanel. But I guess someone watches them. Is there a better network on TV right now ? I am an official Outdoor Channel junkie.

Get Bit

[Tagster]

As am I, GET BIT...Any thoughts on how to turn my wife into an Outdoor Channel Junkie? :depressed:

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Tagster ]</p>

[Snake9t9]

I have to agree with Dan on this. The liberal bag limits would suggest a very large population and a need for effective ways to havest a larger number of deer per hunter. Baiting fits the bill. We have to be careful about why and how we pass judgement on other hunters and fishers and their methods.
Now, as far as snagging goes, yes it is legal in some states for certain types of fish. Paddle fish to be specific, as there is no other method of catching these fish, they are plankton feeders. There have been more than a couple of TV shows covering this fishery. Big hooks and weights and lots of jerking...FISH ON! Is it wrong? How about duck and goose decoys? It's a type of baiting no doubt. If the duck and goose decoys are okay, how about deer and elk decoys? How about game calls? Once again Duck, goose, deer, elk? How about predator calling. All types of baiting...Are they wrong? They all play on the desire of the animal to eat or reproduce. More or less the entire life of any game animal. How about the use of dogs for hunting? does it really matter weather it's the bear or cougar hunter or a pointer or flushing dog? They both do the same work. They are both making the hunt easier for the hunter. Should the use of all hunting dogs be banned?
So, lets take this a little further..,Should barbed hooks, treble hooks or all live bait be banned for fishing? None are a requirement to harvest fish with rod and reel. How about attracting scents, glow or lighted lures? How about (heres a biggie) fish finders? Do they deminish the fair chase at all? Heck yea, if we had deer finders we wouldn't have a use for feeding stands...
Point is we have to be careful about how we critisize hunting and fishing methods that are in use that we may or may not agree with. But the bottom line is that This type of P/C based legislation snow balls and only strengthens the "anti's" cause. Be careful about what types of fish and game laws you support and do not support because those that would seek to eliminate all fishing and hunting know that one swift law preventing either would not pass. They also know that they will be more succesful by slowly eating away at when and how we carry out out our hunting and fishing. So although the anti's may not care how you hunt (bow, muzzle loader, modern) they do care that it would be easy to show (right or wrong)that one may be less humane than the others, and therefore could limit the number of hunters and harvest in the woods.
Please, support fishing and hunting and understand that not only are we in the minority but that there is an organized effort to eliminate hunting and fishing all together. ANY stand against currently legal forms of hunting and fishing only serve to weaken our sports and bolster the cause of those who would eliminate it all together. You see, although you may feel baiting deer is unethical, some feel hunting at all, in any form, is unethical and will only jump at the chance to eliminate any form of the sport they have the chance to.

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Snake9t9 ]

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Snake9t9 ]</p>

[birdhunter]

Respectfully, I'd have to disagree w/ you Snake9t9. You make some interesting points about the use of calls or decoys for wildlife. The problem with these comparisons is that while they are attractants, they are not "rewards". That is to say, the ducks haven't gone into that flock of decoys before and found grain to feed on. The coyote hasn't gone into that predator call and been given a rabbit. The calls and decoys "mimic" a possible "reward" but obviously do not deliver. They rely on the animal taking a chance on a potential food/mate source and coming in.

Baiting is entirely different. The animal becomes accustom to food and realizes a "reward" every time it comes in. Baiting for waterfowl is illegal because other methods of fair chase are widely available. Other methods for fair chase for deer are also widley availiable. Calling, drives, tracking, actually getting off your little 4x4 and hiking around in the woods (gasp!). This isn't a personal attack on anyone on this board. I'm just frustrated w/ what passes for "hunting" on some of these shows from back East. Baiting deer in my opinon is unethical, because you are cheating an animal. It comes in time after time to a safe food source until one day....more like ranching than hunting if you ask me.

Fish finders might show you where fish are, but won't make them bite. They can give you a big advantage, but they won't catch fish. For hunting on the other hand, a deer finder isn't a great comparison. Deer don't decide to be shot like a fish decides to take the bait.

Bear and cougar are a different story. You can't really stumble around in the woods and expect to find a cougar. Bear are becoming more and more common, but they too aren't easy to just walk up on. Using dogs and bait is ethical for these animals because the are the only really effective methods of taking them and the large predators are managed more for population control than sport harvest.

You make some excellent points regarding the anti's desire to do away with all hunting/fishing. However I have a hard time buying the whole "any stand against legal activites weakens the whole system" argument. If we can't take internal criticism then what? And if we as hunters find a certain form of hunting unethical how do you think the public should respond? As hunters we need to be constantly evaluating why we do what we do and what our actions mean. Slob hunters shooting deer over bait does more to damage the sport than any PETA propoganda IMHO. If you loose the support of those in the know (other hunters) how can you expect the rest of the public to support you?

Rather than clinging on to vestiges of laziness and slob hunting, why not practice an ethic that is above reproach?

Just my opinion.

[Snake9t9]

I am not suggesting that we should not police our ranks. We should, and I agree that some of the methods used do not make for "fair chase". However, fair chase and practical managemnet tools are not one in the same. That said, deer feeders will bring in deer that can be harvested just as a rancher would do. Nothing unethical about ranching is there? These methods are not geared toward fair chase, no doubt there. But, they are a sure fire way of harvesting deer.
My point is that, you and I as sportsmen may be able to draw a line between fair chase and management tools. Where an "anti" may not because they only see the picture in black and white. They could care less how that deer is killed, only that it was and they feel it was wrong. They aren't going to give a rosy red about what the sportsmen felt was "fair" or not. They don't see any of it as fair because the deer can't shoot back. Also, ALL of this is opinion, yours, mine, someone elses. If we start making laws based on opinion, who is to say that the anti's aren't right? Maybe we are all wrong for hunting or fishing at all... Wouldn't be any different than telling somebody that had no problems with "baiting" that they were wrong. The big picture here that everyone should see is hunter / non-hunter, fisher / non-fisher, animals rights supporter or everyday burger eater. If it don't hurt YOU don't sweat it. Live and let live. If you've got a problem with a particular hunting method or hunting at all don't do it. But leave those that have no problem with it or use it as a viable tool alone.

[Backlash2]

Actually Dan, it is people killing animals in this way that will be the downfall of hunting. Nobody(including enviro's) cares about Rifle vs. Bow vs. Muzzleloader when you've already got people killing animals in this way, and putting shows on TV doing it. It is NOT hunting!

BTW JBerry- I KNOW you have no problems with does :grin:

[Flathead]

I spent several years living in Texas while in the military. 99% of the state is privately owned land with only 1% public land. The public lands are either state parks or federal lands and public hunting is not allowed. Hunting is big business in Texas with leases or pay to hunt the only game in town. The ranches that offer hunting treat the animals as stock, they spend thousands of dollars to breed and feed their animals to produce the best trophies they can to attract more and higher paying customers/hunters. Many of these operations hire wildlife biologists and managers to manage the deer populations on their lands. Every one of these operations offer "fair chase" hunts or blind/feeder site hunts. They want to attract as many customers as they can to increase their profits. I'm not trying to justify blind/feeder hunting, I personaly would never do it. But, people need to understand that the land owners at these operations do not consider these deer as a public resource, they consider the deer as a crop that they spend alot of money on and expect to make a living with. Outdoor shows should refrain from showing these type of hunts because they do not present a positive image of our sport and lifestyle. However, we as hunters in a state rich with public lands that we can utilize without spending thousands of dollars for hunting rights, day hunts, or leases may not understand how difficult it is to pursue our heritage in a state like Texas. Actually, if you aren't independently wealthy or a land owner it is almost impossible to hunt there. The blind/feeder hunts actually are the cheapest hunting opportunity at these operations, because they can give more people an opportunity to shoot a deer at the site. While the "fair chase" hunts take more time and usually require a guide

I got to tell you, I could never afford to hunt in Texas while I was living there. I'm really happy to live in the Northwest where our opportunities are truly spectacular.

[MoJet Driver]

Geez Flathead, don't make me agree with you. You know how much I hate that! Say something that I can make fun of you at least.

As far as deer hunting in Texas is concerned, the Flathead is right. I hunted deer in northern New Mexico with a group of guys that came out of Houston. I asked them why make the long drive and pay the out of state fees, then they told me how much money you have to pay in the state of Texas even if you are a resident. Outrageous. Some of the residents feel that Texas is God's country, to me, it ain't the donkey-hole of the world, but you can see it from there.

Thick-n-Thin, about the baiting thing, I was looking over the regs regarding cougar and didn't see anything about baiting them being illegal. The OR regs at least. I saw the part about no hounds and saw the part about not baiting or using dogs for bears. I just didn't see anything about not being able to bait cats. Could of been the depressive state I was in since I didn't get an elk this year, but I'll check that one again.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: MoJet Driver ]</p>

[Flathead]

MoJet, I can't believe you agreed with me! and in public even.

You know the real threat to our hunting rights, at least affordable, would be if we were to be locked out of public lands. I've seen how that works in Texas. Sure takes away from your hunting and fishing political support when the vast majority of the people can't afford to hunt or fish.

Game farm hunting is just way to expensive for most of us.

God forbid it ever gets started in Oregon and Washington! Just Ask a Texan!!

[Thick-N-Thin]

Sorry guys I wasn't trying to start any arguments over ethics of hunting. Some very good points on both sides have came up however. I guess I shouldn't say arguments...actually sounded like some good conversation! Thanks

True I have never hunted in Texas or areas that use bait as a method of hunting. It just doesn't apeal to me either.

I guess like you Mojet, I didn't get my elk. It just plain ticks me off to see someone else make hunting look so damn easy. We all know in the real world it isn't that easy.