4 stroke vs. 2 stroke

Beer Waggin · 01-19-2004, 03:07 PM

My sled has a two-stroke on it now and I�m looking at replacing it. I�ve heard some mixed reviews about four-strokes w/pump vs two-strokes w/pump. After the boat show, I�m still concerned about performance, low end torque, out of the hole, response, etc.
Are their any of you four-stroke w/pump guys out there that can give me some first hand experience on the subject?
I�m not sure if the motor sales guys are bs�ing me, trying to dump old motors, or just trying to sell me what I think I want with out listening to my questions. Everybody seems to have a different story.

HOGTIDE · 01-19-2004, 03:56 PM

From what I have seen and what I have run, the fourstroke-pump combination just does NOT cut it. Excess weight on the transom and low rpm's just makes the fourstroke engine a really lousy partner for the outboard pump.

On a prop they work OK, by changing the prop-pitch you can substitute the torque for the lack of rpm. I hate to see 2-strokes go away. Heavy fourstrokes and high & expensive maintanence HPDI/OptiMax outboards add to the expense and take away from the performance of boating. ya,...I'm kinda opinionated on this one, for just a plain ol' non-mechanical fishin' man.

Talk to some honest and knowlegable folks before making a decision! How about Scott at NorthRiver or Dave Wilson at Stevens?

cosmo · 01-19-2004, 03:58 PM

How big is your boat? It'll make a difference in the answer.

Space · 01-19-2004, 04:05 PM

I have a 115hp Merc 4 stroke on my 18ft Sea Dory. It's a heavy sled without the extra weight of the 4 stroke. I don't get a very good hole shot though. I happened to see Grant, one of the Team North River guides while taking out at the boat ramp on the Wilson one day. He said that a couple of guides with the team logo had 4 strokes on their sleds and traded them in on 2 strokes because of the poor hole shot problem. I have to make sure I have enough time to get on plane before I hit the skinny. It's not too bad. I haven't found the bottom yet. I'm not dissatisfied with my chioce. I enjoy quietness of the 4 stroke and the fact that I don't have to smell or pay for the oil. I wouldn't trade back to a 2 stroke.

SPACE

Arima17Ryan · 01-19-2004, 04:09 PM

Hogtide, 2-stroke outboards are not going away. They are just getting better. Look at the brand new E-tec 2-cycle from Evinrude(Bombardier). This is a brand new design from Bombardier owned Evinrude that is supposed to have all of the good things of 4-stroke(low fuel consumption, clean emissions, no stink) with the lower weight of 2-stroke. That's assuming that everything they advertise is true. Yamaha still makes a killer 2-stroke as well. My fathers Yami 90 2-stroke is a kick butt motor. Still runs like new after sixteen years(saltwater use as well)!!!

That said, I love 4-strokes as well. I say pick the best motor for the job. And for pumps, I would agree that that would be a 2-stroke. My $.02

Jignfloat · 01-19-2004, 05:12 PM

was just told ( at the boat show) by NOrth River sales person, the new Yamaha 150 4-stroke, has more low end torque than the 2 stroke, and actually weighs in a couple lb's less. 1 grand more than the 150 HPDI......which is 1200 more than the V-Max...Ive also been told the HPDI series gets almost identical fuel consumption as 4-strokes.....3 different places have 3 very different opinions. I was able to verify the weights.....150 4- stroke is a couple lb's less....performance....I'd sure like to hear a hands on for that. Russ

Waterfish · 01-19-2004, 07:21 PM

Arima15Ryan is right on about the new Bombardier made Evinrude E-tecs. Pick up their 29 page brochure and study their claims. I did, and have followed up by talking to dealers. This technology has all the benefits of a four-stroke, with the torqe and low weight of a 2-stroke. I hope to upgrade to an E-tec within the next year.

Flatfish · 01-19-2004, 09:11 PM

I have never seen a bass boat with a 4 cycle engine on the back.

A 2 stroke with a carb is a wonderfully simple reliable machine. Mercury and Yamaha have pretty much perfected them.

The jet pumps have been built around these powerheads for years. The kinks are pretty much worked out.

I would like to see a 4 stroke out accelerate a 2 cycle engine.

These are the pluses of a 2 stroke.

The downside of a 2 stroke is they smoke. Some( not many) you have to mix the fuel.

Mark and the 50 to 1 dog.

onstep · 01-20-2004, 07:40 AM

The advantages of the 4 stroke are low noise and great fuel economy. The disadvantages are the power band stuck in the low end , lack of trottle response in mid range to high end, and wieght. The best analogy is riding dirt bikes. The difference in performance is noticeably better on the two stroke. If you want to meet the 06 ratings go with a HPDI or Opitmax. However, I would recommend you stay with a convential 2 stroke. Talk to Flatfish he's done the research and knows. My 2 cents which I think you've heard before....

cosmo · 01-20-2004, 09:26 AM

In addition to low noise and great fuel economy, you'd want to add that a four-stroke motor should outlive a 2-stroke by a good margin. Most (if not all) 4-strokes carry longer warranties and the assumption is, and at this point it is an assumption, that the increase in up front purchase price will be returned over engine life. Only need another 5 or 10 years to find out if that is true, which doesn't help much in decision making today.

Waterfish · 01-20-2004, 06:26 PM

Flatfish and Onstep, It sounds like you guys are two-stroke fans, and so am I, that is for the newest ones at least. With the new Evinrude (made by Bombardier) E-tec two strokes, there aren't any disadvantages compared to four-strokes. Honda four-strokes have a CARB-3 emissions rating. I believe that is as good as it gets. The good news is that the new Evinrude E-tecs also have CARB-3 emission ratings, even though they are 2-strokes. They do not smoke. They are legal to use in any lake in Nevada or California where conventional two-strokes are banned. And like four-strokes they are quiet and fuel efficient. Unlike four-strokes, they have that low end punch and are much lighter. Don't get me wrong, I like four-strokes too (I have a Honda 8hp kicker). But with this new two-stroke technology that has all of the advantages of two-strokes AND four-strokes, our current four-strokes may start looking like old technology.

Water Ready · 01-20-2004, 06:52 PM

I heard a rumor(98%) that Bombardier is getting out of outboards

Might want to find out whose going to do the warranty work if needed and where the parts will come from to fix. I would ask your salesman whats going on first before buying---Wasn't that long ago Johnson and Evinrude(OMC) had a new owner.

BE Careful. :shocked: My 1st pick would be a Yamaha. :grin: Mercs build a good 4 stroke also and will be around along time.

Flatfish · 01-20-2004, 07:28 PM

I am a fan of a 2 stroke in a jet application. The 4 strokes are fairly new critters. The jets do not have all of the kinks worked out.

In my eyes, how fast a jet boat accelerates is super important. I would like to see a 4 cycle drag race a sport jet 175 and beat it. I bet it takes 400 plus horsepower( or more) to do it( given the same hull and only the motor changes). Not a top speed race. Just 200 yards.

I have a fuel injected 2 stroke, and the lack of carbs scares me some. But I am somewhat old fashioned that way. It does not smoke much. Fuel consumption is great considering the boat/motor combo.

It is also oil injected. This spooks me too. Maybe I am overthinking it. But one little spiderweb and a bit of dirt in the oil tank and I am out several grand. I would rather mix the gas than replace the pistons. But I am old fashioned that way.

"Technology"- A word used a lot by marketing folks.
"Proven design"- A term used by folks who got burned by technology on more than one occasion.

I looked at the 200-250 4 strokes last summer as I shopped for a sled. I spoke to several guides. they all loved them, except for the jet pump performance. Both Yamaha and Merc guides said the same thing.

A propped 4 stroke is a fine critter. In a few years, the jets will be close to 2 cycle technology. But the bottom line is they are not equal at this time ( across the board. In some instances the pump is already correct)

Bottom line is without specific enginges listed, I cannot endorse a 4 cycle engine over a 2 stroke at this time. Let someone else be the guinea pig on this one.

Mark and the dog.

Bluebird · 01-20-2004, 09:42 PM

I have a 200hp Vmax 2-Stroke with a Pump and couldn't be happier. My boat is a 19' North River Scout and the combination of the Boat and Motor is excellent. The boat planes in about 1 1/2 boat lengths out of the hole. The new 2 strokes have come a long way since the early days with on board computers and the self oiling capability. Not to mention the pricing compared to a comparable 4-stroke.

However from what I have heard thus far the 4 strokes are great but lacking in Powerband as in comparing a 2-stroke dirt bike to a 4-stroke.

Arima17Ryan · 01-21-2004, 08:29 AM

Iwannago-fish'

I don't know where you heard that rumor, but I wouldn't believe it. I work in manufacturing, and why would a company spend all that money to produce a brand new motor(design, tooling, and testing) just to quit. It doesn't make any sense. Plus, Bombardier has only owned Evinrude for like four years. Why would they be throwing in the towel this soon. They haven't owned the company long enough to make a big difference. Think about the money they would loose by buying a company, fixing the new company's problems, producing a brand new product line, and then leaving before having a chance to recoop any of their expenses. I just don't believe it. My $.02

Scaup · 01-21-2004, 09:53 AM

Arima15,

Technically, Bombardier Inc. did get out of outboads. Bombardier sold off it Bombardier Recreational Products division, which includes Evinrude, Johnson, Sea-Doo, and Ski-Doo.

This is the source of many rumors and confusion that Bombardier is getting out of the outboard business.

The new company is Bombardier Recreational Products (same name under trademark agreement with Bombardier Inc.) and is owned in part by the Bombardier family. Since the new company only produces recreational products, it doesn't seem to make much sense that it would get out of the outboard business, especially since they have just released their brand new E-Tec family of outboards.

[ 01-21-2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Scaup ]

Arima17Ryan · 01-21-2004, 12:20 PM

Scaup, thanks for clearing that up.

Water Ready · 01-21-2004, 05:47 PM

Thanks Scaup, That covers the 2% margin of error. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] I'll still be watching to see what develops.

Doesn't effect me cause I don't own one. Just sharing what I had heard, and remember how difficult it was for OMC owners when it all happened. Thanks again for clarity!