.338 Ballistics

[MoJet Driver]

Question for you ballistics wizards. Using Winchester Black Talon 230 grain FST, sighted in at 50 yards/3 inches high, what's the bullet drop at 300 yards? My lame charts don't have this combination. [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[HOGTIDE]

Can't find your exact spec.s

A Fed 225 grn. Trophy Bondeed with a 100yd. Zero drops 14.1" at 300 yards.

A Fed 225 grn. Trophy Bonded with a 200 yd. zero drops 8.3 " at 300 yards.

Sorry. I can't find any highpowered calculations based on a sight-in at 50 yards. The Federal Ammunition site has a cool Ballistics table that downloads to your desk top and changes for many variables.

[Snake9t9]

Black talon... Is that the same as the PC name "Fail Safe now"? Seem to remember them changing the name. If so the winchester sight has a ballistics table for the Fail safe ammo. Supream Fail safe's at 230 grain .338 shows a short range trajectory of -0.1 at 50 yrds. and -13.7 at 300. A long range trajectory of +1.7 at 50 yrds. and -8.1 at 300.

[MoJet Driver]

Thanks Hogtide and Snake9t9.

As far as the Black Talons go, the box I have has both Black Talon and Fail Safe on the label. Since I have been suffering from CRS (Can't remember *hit), I don't recall what year I got these loads. I don't even know why I got them, other than perhaps they were the only thing on the shelf at the time. The box is also labeled "Ideal for dangerous game such a lion and large bear". Anyone seen and lions other than the mountain or sea type around here? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

I'll check those sites. Again thanks for your help.

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

The .338 with it's various loads has a trajectory similar to a .30-06.

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

Mojet,

Just picked up on one part of your statement.... sighted in 3 inches high at 50 yards... I hope that's a typo, as you'll shoot over almost everything from 100 to 250 yards.

That's probably close to a 500 yard zero.

3 inches high at 100 yards will put you on at approximately 230-240 yards with a point blank range out another 40-60 yards.

Is it a typo?

[Fish Hunter]

Check out this Winchester Ammo site for the info you need: http://www.winchester.com/ammunition It has a 230gr. bullet in the Supreme section. Look specifically at: http://www.winchester.com/ammunition...e=on&longrange =on Kinda long hope this works for you.

Jay

[Dogfish]

Snake,

The Black Talon that wasn't PC ws the Black Talon pistol ammo, not the rifle ammo. The media jumped on the fact that those bullets were made to kill. Imagine that, a bullet that kills?

Winchester changed the name of that ammo to "Ranger" and then only distrubuted it to law enforcement. I was able to pick up a few boxes when I was a deputy, still have a few. Hope that helps.

The rifle bullets are based on the nosler partition, but with LOTS of changes. They are comprised of copper (jacket and frony section with a hollow point like the Barnes X), steel ( a small cup that keeps the lead from blowing out of the base section of the bullet), and lead (which is only in the base , added to give the round better penetration).

[MoJet Driver]

Zen Leecher AKA Bill W,

Nope that weren't no typo. I was at a range in Estacada (not Douglas Ridge) and I don't believe the long target was more than 50 yds. It's been awhile though.

My question is, is there a forumulary or a decent ballistics guide out there that can help with computing issues like this? I mean, how did you come up with a 500 yard zero based on what information I provided?

Thanks to everyone else that responded. The links have been helpful. The only downside to the links is they are a short cut to a big long wish list of weapons I'd like to have but can't afford! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

One final question for Zen Leecher AKA Bill W, how did you come up with that moniker?

Dave

[Snake9t9]

Dogfish, Yea, your right, the hub bub over the Black talon pistol ammo was what I was remembering. I think they changed the name of the rifle ammo about the same time just to get the name off the market and quiet all the fuss about it. Probably a smart move on winchesters part. The "fail safe" black talon ammo is great stuff though, just a bit spendy for my pocketbook.

[MoJet Driver]

Snake9t9, I always feel the recoil of the beast in two places, my shoulder and my wallet! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

[bait boy]

I think that what bill w was picking up on was that there is an arc to every bullets flight path. and the bullet and round you are shooting at 50 yards would be at its highest point in its arc (however slight). maybe for that bullets trajectory it should be flatter than that at 50 yards. more like 1".
b allistics for.338

Ballistic Coefficient: 0.436 Product Symbol: S338XA

Description: Delayed, controlled expansion. Deep penetration through thick, tough skin, heavy muscle tissue and bone. For large, heavy game.



Rifle Ballistics

Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2780 - 2573 2375 2186 2005 1834
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Energy (ft. lbs.) 3948 - 3382 2881 2441 2054 1719
Distance (yds) 50 100 150 200 250 300
Short Trajectory (in.) -0.1 0.0 -1.2 -3.8 -7.9 -13.7

IT may be hard to decipher but I think that with your set up you'll be -10" at 300 yards

Rick

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

Projectiles follow about 4 basic trajectories....5, if you count arrows. Rifles have 3 basic ones... 1)slow and that covers a bunch of calibers; 2)medium, and this is where the .30-06 family of "non-magnums go; and then 3) magnums like the 7mm Mag with pointy bullets.

The .338 fits in the 2nd family.

MoJet, to answer your two questions: It's hard to figure out what the trajectory of a bullet is without knowing either the "zero range" or the "inches high at 100 yards". The ballistics programs I'm familiar with will plot out with either info. Three inches high at 50 yards is a small headache as the person playing with the program has to make some guesses and adjustments to come up with the correct print out.

Rifle bullets set to hit dead on at 25 yards will usually be dead on again somewhere between 200-300 yards depending on how fast the bullet is and what the bullet BC is.

Your "3 inches high at 50 yards" is excessive and will cause you to shoot over lots of game in the 100 to 300 yard range.

I shoot a zippy little caliber that is just on the bottom edge of the fast cartridges and I sight in 3 to 3 1/2 inches high at 100 yards which puts me dead on at about 300 yards. With this set up I've shot deer at ranges of 50 yards and out to 525 yards. In case anyone's curious you need to hold over by 30 inches to hit something at 525 yards.

I came by the handle "zen leecher" on a lake clean up trip early this year when I was telling stories about fishing leeches for trout, having short strikers, and learning to throw slack line to the trout to entice them to come back and hit the woolly buggers. Throwing slack on a strike is a hard concept to learn (at least it was for me).

[MoJet Driver]

Again, Zen Leecher, thanks for your insight. Scatter gun ballistics and steel shot have been my focus for too many years, it's taking me a while to get back into the groove of hitting the ten ring with a single projectile.

I guess I was wondering where the coefficient came into play. Being basically lazy, I was hoping that there was a mathematical formula to give a good educated guess. I now understand why the ballistics charts are set with the zero ranges for short and long trajectories. Interpolation is pretty easy if the curve is consistant but a leetle bit harder when you throw the physics in.

I guess there ain't no better method than some range time.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

I've found the .338 more enjoyable to shoot off the bench than the .300 Win Mag.

Different type of recoil. Ones a long push and the other's a quick snap.

What did you orginally get the .338 for? Elk?

I bought mine when I was making a moose trip up in Alberta. Couldn't decide between the .300 and the .338, so I bought both. Took the .300 on the trip with my 7mm Mauser as a back up gun.

The .300 with 180 Nosler Partitions shot thru 3 foot of moose with the bullet exiting on the other side.

I used to hunt elk in our Wenas area which is a little crowded with hunters. I carried the .338 there as I wanted a big blood trail and possibly an elk down in 10-15 feet. Only shot one stump while I carried it.

Nowadays I'm more selective in my rifle purchases. Wouldn't get two at the same time.

[MoJet Driver]

I originally got the .338 for two reasons. In the lower 48, for elk. In Alaska, insurance. I wanted something with some serious knockdown power in case a Browny and I got in a disagreement on who owned the tent. This is also why I went with the Winchester model 70 Classic to reduce the chances of short stroking a round.

The thing that I don't like about it, is that I got it with a BOSS adapter and the muzzle blast really rings my bell, even double protected on the ears. I've considered contacting Winchester for the solid adapter, I've got a buddy who shoots the same model in 30-06 and he ended up going that route to save his hearing.

I wasn't too concerned with the ballistics and the sight pattern at first. I figured that most of my shots would be less than 200 yds, but after expanding my hunting area, I've seen the potential (even on the west side of the Cascades) of having to lob a round out to 300+ yards.

I'm going to give this a try once more this season, but I am seriously considering stepping down to a more forgiving caliber. Just don't have the money today and I've got a "junior" on the way.

If I asked my wife what is more important, cribs/and kid furniture, or guns, I'll give you one guess what that answer would be!

Dave

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

The 7mm Rem Mag is a lot easier to handle and will do about everything you ask of it in the lower 48.

The .30-06 will to for that matter, but the 7mm shoots a lot flatter.