Picking a Dog (kinda long)

[Snake9t9]

Kinda struck out on the last one. Decided I wanted a German shorthair. He is decent in the field but Is very water shy, He will not get wet much deeper than his chest, He has batteries like the energizer bunny, and he is scared to death of geese(the honking). Hunted him a few times on pheasant when he was a about a year old and fairly well started. He wasn't quite steady on point but good enough for me. Well, on our last trip out he was about 40 yards out and locked up. He was right at the start of a fence row at the shillapoo? pheasant release area. Another hunter (fully aware of the dog on point) strolls around the end of the fence, kicks up the bird and nails it. The dog, as I had trained him, retrieved the bird to the shooters hand. That did it, I was done with upland around here. That was five years ago and I have since moved on to greener pastures ,IMHO, waterfowling. Problem is, the dog won't play that game... Been waiting for a couple of my buddy's (MetalHead's) dogs to throw a litter but his ***** isn't having any of that. After the last dog I'm having a hard enough time convincing the wife to let me get another. I know I want a lab... But I've noticed there are really two types out there. The field trial dogs (they seem to have batteries like my shorthair) and a much calmer strain which srikes me as more of a good calm hunting / companion dog with all the retrieving drive of any lab. How do I ensure as much as possible that I get what I'm looking for? Thanks, Duane.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Snake9t9 ]

[MetalHead]

Its real easy Snake, you just baby sit my dogs for a couple a weeks when she's in season...duh [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Perfect Drift]

I have two Labs, Chocolate and a yellow and have done or helped in many hunt tests. Look to the parents !!!!!
Most likely what you see is what you'll get.
Both of mine are of the smaller, beavertail type. The male is 75 lbs, the female is 60 lbs. I really like the smaller dog, why, cause they live in the house and use much less space. The same in the boat
Again, look to the parents. There are many retreiver clubs in the Portland area, may try contacting them also.

[RipDatLip]

I wouldn't be to picky. You can't always tell a dog by its parents or its breed. I have heard that the blacker the roof of a dog's mouth the better the dog. I don't know what that is supposed to mean. How would you determine better?

Anyways, we have a 12 yr old yellow lab/dingo mix and 2 yr old chessy/lab mix. These dogs are superior to pure bred dogs in every aspect (unless we were wanting to use these dogs for breeding or showing.) A good pure bred dog will cost what? $300-$600? To much for a dog! We got the 12 yr old free and the 2 yr old for $50. Now I'm going to give you some reasons for wanting hybrid dogs. This is just my opinion so if you disagree, please keep it to yourself.

Hybrid dogs will usually always live longer and stay healthier than pure bred dogs. (Usually larger dogs as well, but that is determined by the genetics. Our yellow lab/dingo is about 120-130 lbs.)

Cost less money to buy.

Just as smart, obedient, and willing to love.

Just as strong, have as much energy, and perform just as well as pure breds.

In most cases that I have noticed hybrids are smarter than pure breds. I don't know why this is, it may be just the environment that the dogs are raised in or it might the actuall genetics.

Our yellow lab/dingo mix is very territorial. She will kill anything, and I do mean anything. Anything from rats/moles all the way up to chasing deer around the woods. She used to kill cats, rabbits, and coyotes! Nothing is wrong with this dog, it was doing what it needed to protect its master. I was it's master, but I was only 5, so could you see why it was so protective? Now the dog just lays around the house, because it has minor arthritis. So far the dog is not bad enougth to put on drugs. Our aunt has a pure bred yellow lab and it is the same age, 12 yr old. It has really bad arthirits and has been on drugs for the last year.

These are just a few things that I have always thougt about when looking at dogs. I am interested in hearing some other people's opinions. If you want my opinion, a chessy or lab is the perfect dog. It handles the cold winter months really well and would be a good upland bird dog (except for crap getting stuck in its hair.) I know my dog points even though I have never trained it for any upland hunting. I feel that these dogs are the happy medium.

Snake9t9, just don't get locked into only getting a lab or only pure bred or only of anything. There are dogs out there that will fit you perfectly, you just need to find it. These are just some ideas I have thougth and maybe you can use them. hope this helps.

Matt

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: RipDatLip ]

[Pete]

There are lots of great resources for selecting a dog. I have a golden, so I'm most familiar with those, but the principals of selecting a dog are applicable to other retreivers, too.
Selecting a Puppy
I think one of the best things to do, once you've identified a breed is start interviewing breeders. Talk to lots of them, go to shows, ask people about their dogs, find out what people think of other breeders. When I got my dog I narrowed my list to 3 breeders ... the only ones I could find that actually kept records of the health issues with the ancestors of their stock back 5 generations and kept track of any health issues that came up in the dogs they sold.

Good breeders don't charge any more than bad ones, but (particularly with retreivers) there are far more bad ones than good ones. If a good breeder recognizes your interest in good breeding and sees that you appreciate their program, you won't have trouble getting a good dog, even when they say they don't have any for sale.

[Capin' Dan]

Snake, I have been raising labs for 15 years. We show our dogs do obediance, agility and hunt test. I currently have a nice litter of blacks that may work for you. they are going to have the big blocky style heads and nice bone and coats. Dad is a real nice hunter. If you decide to go another way I can put you in touch with some breeders in the area. My lines are not hyper. they are great family dogs and they get along with other dogs well. I hunt all my dogs for both upland and waterfowl. I start my young puppies jsut out of the welping box on poor pigions that are unfortanate to come and live with us I think this helps them to be birdie later in life. Labs are truely the best breed. After having one your wife will love them.

Dan!

[Capin' Dan]

Matt, Get a life, you do not have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to dogs. Go to a field trials some time and you will get the true meaning of what these dogs are truely capable of. Maybe for the average Joe these hybrids may be fine but you are not doing either bred any favors. do you really think that a 130lb dog is going to be able to hunt as long and cover as much ground as a 65 lb dog. This is one thing that really gets me ripped reading a post from a totally clueless person when it comes to these dogs and yes I do know what I am talking about having raised, breed, shown and recued pure bred dogs for over fifteen years. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[ 09-23-2001: Message edited by: Capin' Dan ]

[Snake9t9]

How old are your pups Capin'Dan?

[Capin' Dan]

They are three weeks old yesterday.

[Tilla]

Day in and day out the purebred dogs are bred for performance and/or looks. Bad characteristics are going to be bred out and desireable characteristics are going to be bred in. Think about it, you are going to buy a companion that is going to be by your side for possibly 12 years or more, it's good to know what you are getting. Buy from good bloodlines and reputable breeders. The price of the dog should be secondary and should not influence your decisions. Cap'n Dan knows what he is talkin about. If I am going to buy a puppy, it is like rolling the dice, I am going to do everything possible to make sure everything is in my favor.
You cannot go wrong with a Lab, they are easy to train and take care of.

[Rauly]

Snake
I would recomend sitting down and figuring out what kind of dog you really want. I don,t mean breed. What you need to think about is what exactly are you going to do with this dog. We know you are going to hunt Waterfowl with it, but is it also going to be a pet or family dog. Are the kids going to play with the dog? Are you going to run this dog in hunt tests or take it to field trials? Are you going to train it or have it trained by someone else. All of these things should weigh heavily in your decision. Buying a pup is a commitment!

Check out some breeders. I will highly recomend one Doug Shade of Minoggie Kennels 503-621-3597 but I would check out some others as well. You are lucky that living in the NW many of the best in the country live here. If you would like some more names contact me and I will be more than happy to send you their names and phone numbers. Go see the breeder and ask to see some of the things that his dogs can do, also ask for referenses and go look at those dogs also.

Now let me get my crystal ball out and see what it tells me...You are looking for a GOOD hunting dog and family dog...Will probably not run hunt tests and definately not field trials...Will hunt all day and be glad to see the kids when you get home...Not looking for a guard dog but wouldn't mind if it barked once or twice when someone came around...Looking for a calm dog but remembering that puppies are not calm and expect to get a few things chewed up before it is an adult(1-2yrs.)...want a dog that is easy to train by youself...want a dog that is a great companion and loves to be around you...remember that best friend thing...IT'S TRUE

I think you are on the right track looking for a lab. I have 2 and am proud of them both. My older dog (Rauly) is one heck of a hunter and has done very well at the hunt tests. My young dog (Widgeon) will get into the hunting this fall seriously. I have owned and trained pointers, flushers and retrievers. Most all of them I was very proud of but my favorites are the 2 I have now.

[Snake9t9]

Rauly, you nailed it. I would only add that the dog needs to be one to stick close. Don't want another wide ranging dog. Just way to hard to train and control. I don't mind a dog with energy, it's the hyper, I just can't stop, gotta go! Go! GO!, wear the pads off their feet, run wide till they drop dogs that I'm trying to avoid. My dog literally wore the pads off his feet a couple of summers ago when MetalHead and I took our dogs sturgeon fishing with us just below the dam. He would NOT stop til he could literally go no more!

[RipDatLip]

Dan,

First of all, I don't want to get into any type of arguement. It is a waste of my time to argue with someone who doesn't know my dog, but I'm mad. I did mention that it was just MY persoanl opinions, so taking it as FACT was a big mistake. I never said pure breds were bad dogs, in fact I have one myself. Also my opinion is that the environment plays a much bigger role than the genes. If my dog was rasied in a kenel in the city instead of on a farm in the country it would be a totally different dog. I do know what I am talking about when it comes to dogs, but I admit that I don't know as much as you.

I think I should clear up one fact, so no one misunderstands me again. The old yellow lab that I have was never trained for hunting or hunted. I was only 5 when I got it, therefore the dog was never trained. So don't think that the dog was ever a hunting dog. It only hunted becasue of natural instinct.

Again going back to MY opinion, my old lab could have easily competed with ANY pure bred lab (back in the day.) You can't judge my dog from what you know becasue you have never seen what my dogs abilities are. When it was younger it had more energy (but not hyper) than my chessy, and could easily last all day. As far as covering as much ground, because of it large size some places it wanted to go would be restricted. But, it could run at a top speed from 35-40mph. And, becasue of its long legs could swim faster than most dogs. At the time it wasn't 130lbs, it was about 90-100lbs then. Now it is just old and fat because it is inactive.

I have never had and don't have any intention of breeding/showing/or tesing my dog(s). I feel very confident that it could have performed with the top dogs if trained properly. Sorry, but I really get mad when people make accuisation against me on a topic in which they are "totally clueless."

Snake9t9, I was only trying to make the point that it doens't matter what type or breed of dog you get as much as getting a good dog. I know my "mut" had more potential than most pure breds and was trying to use that as an example.

Matt

[Capin' Dan]

Matt, I just reread my post and I was a little harsh. I also get defensive when I feel pure bred dogs are attacked I have devoted a lot of my life in the pursuit of what I feel the perfect lab is. Even lab breeders do not agree on what this is. I have tried to get to a happy medium that are great hunters and also meet or exceed breed standards. Why don't you and I get together for a duck hunt in mid Oct or early November. Give me a mial and I will set it up. We will either have a great time hunting or argueing about dogs one way or the other it should be a memorable trip.
Your dogs or mine it doesn't matter.
Snake, why don't you join us and we can really confuse the heck out of you. I have plenty of decoys.

Dan! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Daffy Duck]

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Capin' Dan ]

[Snake9t9]

Count me in If it's on this side of the river. Them outta state licences are just a bit steep for me [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Capin' Dan]

Snake what kind of schedule do you keep?

[Snake9t9]

Work A 12 hr. shift 6pm to 6am, 2 on, 2off, 3on, 2 off, 2on, 3 off. (two weekends off per month, work a total of 15 days out of 30) It can be nice but can be a pita too. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Tilla]

Doug Shade at Minnogie Kennels recently did some breedings (Quincy, I believe) with Jim Faulks dogs (Coyote Creek Kennels) in Eugene, they should be about ready. Doug is a great guy.

[Bait O' Eggs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I have heard that the blacker the roof of a dog's mouth the better the dog. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My late Grandpa had dogs all his life, mostly mutts but they were always very smart and well behaved. He is the only guy I have ever seen hunt chukars with his poodle [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] and very effectively. The poodle was always looking sporty in a little vest grandma knitted to keep the briars from sticking in the hair on their chukar trips. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] Anyhoo, my grandpa always told me to never get a dog that didnt have black in its mouth. The more black the smarter the dog. I have never heard that from anybody else until I read the quote above by ripdatlip.

Has anybody else heard this, any opinions or truths to this? When I got my dog about 7 years ago, my grandpa recently left us, and I looked for a dog with black in the mouth. I hate to think color actually is a sign of intelligence for either humans or dogs. [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[RipDatLip]

I also reread what I wrote and what I wrote didn't exactly mean what I had intended. I was not bashing pure breds, or at least did not mean to.

As far as hunting goes, I doubt if my schedule will allow me to hunt. Last year I only had three days off from nov. to feb. It's my dang wrestling schedule. I have a tournament every single weekend, but if it wasn't for sports I would be all for it.

Matt

[Dogfish]

Hi BOE,

Poodles were originally bred as hunting dogs, and I have seen a few standards out hunting pheasants, silly haircuts and all! The dogs were quite powerful, and had good endurance, but I wouldn't want to brush one out after hunting in burr country.

[bigshark]

BOE

I thought I had heard it all but this black-
mouth thing takes the cake on choosing a dog.
But, I'm going to look into the mouth of every really outstanding dog I'm around this year, and that should quite a few. At the end of Jan I will post what I found. If nothing else, if a guy had two pups he just couldn't make up his mind about and more than 50% of the better dogs had black mouths
this might be helpful........On the otherhand
I just checked the mouth on my old lab and its as black as the ace of spades......And as much as we love her as one of the family she isn't now or ever was worth a **** as a hunter.......this is what can happen when you buy a good bloodline puppy at a DU function, only to be told by a couple of highly regarded trainers that the dog is a waste of training dollars for what they know
I expect it to be able to do when I get it back for good....thats life. But BOE I'm going to have fun with this if nothing else.
I hope I don't get my trigger finger bit off..... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Has anyone ever seen a lab that didn't have a
black mouth????????? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Wonder if I should check the dogs mouth before or after the 4 martinis I have after the hunt????

[Bait O' Eggs]

Bigshark - I will find your black mouth findings interesting. I had never heard the theory from anybody but my late grandpa. When I saw ripdatlip make a similiar comment on his earlier post about black mouthed dogs I was shocked, that there may be a wives tale about such things.

My wife and I got a Jack Russel Terrier not long after we were married. She insisted since they are so cute. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] If a person had a rat problem and wanted to put up with a hyperactive dog 24/7 maybe then I would recommend one of them [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] but probably not. I was looking at the batch of pups and chose the one with the black in the mouth, since I had basically nothing else to go on. Wasnt one in the bunch that I really wanted, funny what we do for a new wife. Little did I know the dog was gonna live forever, and ever and ever.

[RipDatLip]

Actually I was told that by a veterinarian. All I was told that the blacker the roof of the mouth the better. I don't know if this means the dog is going to be a healthier dog or live longer. I really have no clue. Please look into it for me too.

Matt

[Rauly]

Inspection- Well I have two of these mutts and I just checked their mouths.

Results- Both inside of their mouths match the outside fur. Black as the Ace of Spades.

Conclusion- They both have black mouths. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Glad we solved that one. [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Tilla]

OK you guys, this blackmouth stuff has got to stop [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Your driving me crazy!!! I have been judging AKC performance events for more years than I care to admit. I am probably in the top 25 "pointed" master judges in the US, and a couple of buds of mine are in the same boat, and I never, ever, heard such a thing. I am not saying that I know &^%$, or that I am an expert, but, this subject has never ever come up before. It's a pigment thing, inherited AHHHH [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] By the way, the AKC has opened the standard Poodle into Retriever performance events. OK, I'm better now, I'll shut up.

[Capin' Dan]

Tilla, When they bring there dogs to the line at future events check there mouths and then disqualify those that are not black. Does grey count? How about black sploches? Can we use a permanent marker to color them in? Ohh well I guess we will just have to train them and love them regardless. I do know that Black labs can kick yellows and chocolates A$$ in every aspect of hte hunting thing they are just born smarter. OK I'll get a life and get off this bantering.
tilla hope to see you are the test next spring.

Dan! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Tilla]

Dan, you are right about the color thing. It's because it is easier to develop good breeding characteristics with a dominant trait. Blacks have the advantage of having a longer history and larger genetic gene pool to work with. You can get great yellows and chocolates but the genetic math and the facts show black to have the edge in performance, and that includes all retriever breeds.
But you already know this stuff.
[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[MetalHead]

Well now Snake you are in trouble if my best girl finds out your going hunting without her! I'm digging out the decoys today cleaning them up and setting aside the ones that need new paint. I may have found an answer to the spinner problem too. I have aquired a 1/4hp gas motor (leaf blower) like we used to run on air boats at the **** . I'm trying to quite it down and maybe I can come up with a gas powered motoduck. BTW I my draw is 3rd pick on the 10th of October I am planning on being sick that day.

Do any of you guys know of someplace local that has decoy touch up paint or do I have to call Cabella's?

Cap'n Dan and Tilla maybe you guys can help me with a little history on one of my dogs. I know about the lines on Ruby (my hyper dog) she is the product of EBONSTAR'S ACE & MINNIE HOWARD I have spoken with both owners and breeders I even took my dogs over to Patti Kiernans place and worked with them alittle. She's a good dog, lots of drive and can go all day but she is definately a trial dog it drives her nuts to set in the blind all day. But my best girl (as my wife and daughter call her [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ) Misha is more of a mystery she is the product of NO. TWO BUCK SHOT HUNT (blk) & MOLLEY JEORGE HUNT (CHLT) the breeders are William B Hunt SR & JR but I cant seem to find them, do you guys know them? She is a great dog, alittle larger 75lbs. mellow around the house, other dogs, people and loves to hunt. I have even had her lock up and point on Pheasant out at shilapoo when my son and I were scouting for ducks. Any help here would really be appriciatated. I also have a CHLT male named MOOSE that is a retrieving fool, he will do blinds, multiples, hand signals the works. But if he even see's a gun its all over I know I can break him of this gunshyness but my wife say's its a one way trip to divorce court if I do.

[bigshark]

Tilla

I'd like to ask a favor of you. Some years ago, maybe 12 plus, there was a breeder around Independence that had yellows. He
had a male named Sam. I was told that he died
of cancer several years ago but his son took over the business. Do you have any idea of what the name of this guy was or what the name of the kennel was? If so are they still in business? Thanks

[DK]

snake9t9, i have a yellow lab also, you ask what you can get out of it, well, i have to honestly say what ever you put in to it i don't mean this sarcastly, i don't hunt with him but have trained him very well, this dog can count fingers, fetch a beer out of the fridge, take out the garbage,and listens like a person and can understand, he is quite hyper but i feel thats what makes him want to learn, our neighbors have the one that is more mellow and is dummer than a box of rocks just doesn't seem to have the ambition, also i forgot to mention that this dog will sniff out any thing all though i have not trained him professionaly i have taught him to sniff out people gun powder and drugs he loves to perform and at any time dk

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: DK ]

[Labsforme]

I am a lurker no more.Good subject.I have
hunted and have as house dogs linebred field
trial labs.The dog I hunt over now is out of
Cosmo and a granddaughter of Truemark Zipcode
she is great in the house and double trouble on Geese even though she's only about 55 lbs.
The best way to pick a dog is to see the pedigree and if possible see the dam and sire.Doug has some very good dogs.I have been
in and out of the field trial/hunt test scene
for about 12 years and trialed GSP before that.

[Perfect Drift]

I like your name labsforme , very good

[Tilla]

Bigshark, I am not sure I know what breeder you are talking about. The two I know in that area didn't have a dog named Sam.
Metalhead, I don't know the Hunt's. Patti, I know, great knowledgable gal.
I don't follow the breedings much, but I can sure untrain a dog during hunting season. Just a note about training, if you can get a little help, have a little patience and can afford a few 15 minute training sessions a week, you can have a great hunting dog. Being in the Northwest has some huge advantages. There are retriever clubs in the area that hold practice training events in the spring and summer, your dog can get retrieves all year long. This is what I feel the best source for information, training tips, partners and the absolute best source for puppies. Oregon Retriever Trial Club,Oregon Hunting Retriever Club, Rose City Labrador Club, Salem Retriever Trial Club, Greater Pacific Trial Club all are local. There are a few south Umpqua and Rougue Valley and a bunch in Seattle. These clubs hold practice and AKC licensed events called hunt tests, these are non-competitive pass/fail events .The local pros can get you tuned in, I recommend looking into it.
Labsforme, don't worry, you are not the only lurker out there. I know there's others.

[Snake9t9]

DK, I am well aware that one reaps what they sow as far as dogs go. Trainning and time spent with a dog go along way toward having a good dog that will perform as you expect. I trained my pointer, although he no longer hunts due to a change in my chosen target, and training a pointer is no easy task. If there is a case of you get out of a dog what you put in, this is it.
My concerns are directed more at choosing a personality, a demeanor, a composure and, (a big one that any field dog owner or trainer will agree with)natural ability.
I'm not looking for a hunt test / field trial dog. What I am looking for is more practical for me, a dog that will be content to spend long hours in the blind with me and my hunting partner. Sometimes with little to no action. A dog that has a good natural marking and retrieving instincts. A dog that will spend most of it's time with the family doing other things than hunting, but will perform reasonably well with a few weeks tune up before the season each year. I'm not concerned with style or showmanship. I am concerned with retrieving lost birds. My flash and flaunt it hunting dog days ended when I gave up pheasant hunting and working the fields behind my pointer.
The things I am looking for in a dog are a function of breeding. The rest I'll take care of. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Labsforme]

Snake,I agree training is very important.However you have to have something to train.You can't put drive and desire into a dog.I hunt every week during the duck/goose season and of course have been skunked enough times and my "high powered"
field trial bred dog is there with me all day long.If you take a look at most hunting bred dogs you'll probably find field trial
background.Not all field bred dogs are hyper
(except on opening day).I'm sure that several
of the people that have posted can steer you
the right way to what to look for in a litter
or breeding.Another source for information is
an older book called Training the Retriever
by James Lamb Free,you can find it at most libraries.

[Snake9t9]

Labsforme, I agree that drive and desire are important, and that those terms don't have to mean hyper. I will do plenty of "shopping and talking" before buying a dog this go around, to make sure as much as possible I know what to excpect.

[bigshark]

Tilla
Have you heard of a newer kennel in the valley called Gun River? I'm told that the gal that owns it has blacks and yellows. Any knowlege of what they have turned out or the bloodline they have? I will be looking for a new dog in the next few months....am thinking that it might be best for me to try and find a finished dog....any thoughts or suggestions for me??

[Tilla]

Bigshark, that kennel is Rene' Ivy, she has been training and breeding for over a decade. The Dallas location started about 7-8 years ago. We have one dog from a breeding of hers (Jayne) just before she started training. She is a good resource for puppies and she knows alot of other breedings both in performance dogs as well as show quality and everything in between.

[Capin' Dan]

Big Shark,
Rene Ivy gets a A+++++ in my book. She not only is a great trainer and breeder but is a great source of information.

Labsforme; I disagree with what you say about drive and not being able to train that into a dog. If a dog has the oppurtunity to see tons of birds thoughout the year that builds drive. It has been proven time and time again that drive can be trained into a dog. Some field trial dogs are so hyper that only the professional trainer can turn this hyperness into a truely remarkable hunting/trial dog. hats why they bred this hyperness into there dogs. they are lookiing for the exception not the rule. The average or novice trainer usually can not do much with one of these dogs. Sure it will hunt but for whom and where. This is where responsible breeders can help you out. Let them know what your abilities are and hopefully they can match a dog with your abilities.

Snake What have you started here. I really enjoy this thread.

Dan!

[crabbait]

IMHO you get what you pay for. This is especially true when you are investing in a hunting companion that will be with you for the next ten+ years.

"Hybreds" may be fine for some folks, but if you want a dog that lives to hunt and is a pleasure to have around the house you should go with a purebred (LAB) that has the papers to prove its lineage.

You should also make sure that both parents have hips certified by the Orthopedic Foundation of America (OFA). This will not garantee that the dog will be free of dysplaysia but it will certainly reduce the odds. Take it from someone who has been there, you do not want to have to put a six month old puppy down because it cannot run or jump or live free of constant pain.

My 105lb yellow lab is from Sunnyview kennels in Salem but there are many good breeders out there. I could not be happier with my dog. He is calm as can be around the house but absolutely focused when it comes to hunting anything. Last year while pheasant hunting I actually felt sorry for the pheasants! There is no escape from the yellow peril... He also holds down the front of a jet sled just right.

If you are interested in a black, a friend of mine just bred a litter. these dogs are well papered from strong hunting stock with big blocky heads. male is about 95lbs, mother about 75lbs. He is more interested in the dogs going to a good hunting home than money. Let me know if you are interested.

Papered dogs from hunting stock! Just my opinion.

[Snake9t9]

Shoot me an E-Mail with a phone number, If you would please Crabbait. I'd be interested in talking to him about the dogs.