Who's A Horn Hunter

[Bait O' Eggs]

I am probably opening up a big can of worms here that will hurt some feelings, I hope we can have a discussion about the topic without stepping on toes. I only ask the question because I want to hear the view points of the cow/doe hunters. If you agree with me, you can also throw your opinions also [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I was raised with a viewpoint of you dont hit girls and you dont shoot does and cows. (for some reason they seem like the same to me) Right or wrong, I cannot get beyond this view point of shooting cows/does. Hitting girls is a whole other issue [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

I have heard the arguement that you cannot eat the horns, blah blah blah..... I really enjoy wild meat, but to me it all about the horns. I have never taken a real wall hanger. Most of my reasons for that would be the area I have hunted doesnt contain many trophies. I was raised hunting deer on the Trask/Nestucca and Elk on the Kilchis/Wilson river. I am a firm believer there are far less deer/elk in these units than there was 20 years ago, yet the state has added doe/cow tags. I have never gone thru and counted the number of tags they use to give out compared to now. I seem to get the distint impression that the doe/cow tags are generated for revenue, not because the herds need thinned down due to winter kill and over population. The coastal units are lucky to see snow, let alone have winter kill.

When I am hunting I chase horns. I would rather bag horns like the ones you watch on the hunting videos, where they hunt around the edge of Yellowstone or some place like that. But I am content in taking a spike elk. I went without elk meat the last 2 years because I could not get a clean kill shot on bulls with my bow. I always seem to get screwed up by some cow between me and the target. I could have killed an easy dozen cows last year, but cannot bring myself to do it, even on the last day of season.

The only reason I would put in for a doe tag is to keep somebody else from killing the doe. Furthermore, I would only put in for that doe tag if I could still have another tag to hunt bucks with. Maybe that is mean and vindictive, but if I witnessed a guy hitting a girl I would step in also. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Maybe I need to handicap myself making the hunt more of a challenge. Killing a doe or cow does not seem very hard to me. Maybe it is a great achievement of others. I dont make that statement to put down others. I kind of feel like it is like salmon fishing. If we wanted to catch a fish we could go to a trout farm and pay the fee and catch them all day with no effort. If the objective is to catch a fish, why not go for the easiest catch. We pursue salmon because of the pursuit. Dont we??? It is not about the kill, it about the pursuit, the hunt. I know I would not find satisfaction in catching trout from a pay pond, and I would not find satisfaction from hunting does/cows.

I have read some logic that the bull to cow ratio is to low. So the answer to that is to kill a bunch of cows so the ratio is back in porportions. I will never accept that logic, until I see cows tampoling fences and being a nuciance. Our elk populations are not in the exceeding zone, what we need to do is increase the numbers of bulls to get the porportions back into check.

For those that hit this board, please tell me your logic behind hunting hornless animals. If the reason is because it is legal to do so. So be it, that is a reason. I for one, was raised with the logic to not do it, I cannot shake that logic whether it is right or wrong. What we are taught as kids, sometimes stays with us a long time.

[Hoosier Daddy]

I can't remember the exact ratios BOE, but I have read stuff about this before. Our bull:cow ratios are typically lower (less bulls) than they should be in a natural herd. Research in Starkey Forest by La Grande has shown that a decrease in the average age of bulls in a herd is detrimental to birth rates, etc. in the population. I have also been told that the main reason for males only hunting has typically always been social. Biologically, it makes more sense to harvest at a more similar rate, not equal, because that's not how the herds operate, but more equal than we normally do. I don't think the cow tag is for generating revenue. I think it is an attempt to get harvest in line with current knowledge about herd management. I think with deer it is even more an issue because I believe they typically have less difference in proportions of males:females in the natural herd. Just my 0.02. I personally don't hunt for just horns, not because I'm a "meat hunter", but because I believe both sexes should be harvested if you are going to harvest (and its legal to do of course-ie bowhunting). However, you want to hunt horns, go ahead. I see your point, doesn't bother me a bit. I really don't have to worry about it because I am such a terrible hunter that I never kill anything anyway, so it's all philosophical.
You might be able to find more out about this if you check for research results from the Starkey Experimental Forest. I think ODFW runs it, with some help. I know they have published stuff, but I'm not sure how you get ahold of it. It has been pretty groundbreaking stuff, as far as elk management goes though.

[Dogfish]

Hi Bait,

Interesting topic. Here are my thoughts on what some folks call "hair" tags.

I have no problem dropping the hammer on a doe or cow. I hunt with pistol, muzzle loader, and rifle. I hunt for many reasons, one of them being for the meat. I have drawn three doe tags in my life, and only killed one because I happened to run into a buck before I found a doe. I am 13 for 13 on deer, so I have a little more than luck going for me in the hunting skills department. (We only get one deer a year in Washington) I have seen the effects of over population when I lived on Orcas Island in a deer herd, and in a few other areas as well. It is not pretty.

The primary reason for the issuance of doe/cow tags is to keep the herds from exceeding the "carrying capacity" of their habitat. Carrying capacity is the number of animals that a given habitat can support for a year without causing damage to the habitat.

I know of no hunter in my circle of friends that won't buy a license just because there are no doe tags so I think the revenue argument that you make is invalid. Even if the effect of doe tags meant increased revenue for the game department, then guess what, they have more money to help improve habitat, buy additional lands so that hunters have more room to hunt, pay for more enforcement officers to take care of poachers, etc. There is no down side to increased revenues. I am willing to pay for the priveledge to hunt and fish in my state.

An excellent example of animals exceeding their carrying capacity was the large winter die-off that we had in the Mt St. Helens herd of elk a few years back. They just ate most of the food by December, so there was not enough left to support the whole herd until spring. There are also concerns with the Yakima elk herd exceeding their carrying capacity, so the WDFW has increased the number of "hair" tags there.

The whitetailed deer population in Eastern Washington, primarily in those counties that border Idaho, has exploded. It is getting to the point of crop damage, so the state has basically made those units an "any deer" area providing that you are a youth, disabled, or over 65. There are a few other exceptions, but these are the general rules for rifle hunters. The other methods have more of an opportunity to take does per the regulations.

I have drawn my third cow tag in four years for an area near my home. I have taken three cows in 8 years of hunting elk, all with a muzzle loader. This area is all private land, and there have been increasing damage claims for fence and crop damage caused by this elk herd. When I first started hunting this herd 4 years ago, there were about 120 elk. This January, I got my cow out of a herd that easily numbered 250. The 10 cow tags a year issued for that unit previously had not been able to control the growth of the herd or reduce the damage complaints, so they have increased the number of tags to 50 this year, spread them over 5 months.

My state has also eliminated a number of doe tags in areas affected by hair loss syndrome, and low winter survival rates. It isn't a case of where once doe tags are issued in a unit, there will always be doe tags.

Effective wildlife management means that some folks have to change their way of thinking. The old rituals, such as bucks only, also need updating. Look at the herd management practices in the Southeastern US. The good old boys are now taking does, because it can actually increase the health of the herd. Who'd a thunk it?

Please take no offense, but your "touchy feely" argument of holds no water. Your argument has as much merit as the arguments that outlawed hound hunting for bear and cougar, outlawed bait for bears, and outlawed body gripping traps in the state of Washington. Just look at the rise in bear and cougar complaints. I can't wait to see the effects of a runaway beaver population. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] All of these banned methods are effective methods for managing the game populations of a given area. Hunters should be conservationists. Conservation means "WISE USE" of an existing resource.

A lot of people complain about their state fish and wildlife, but until they provide a solution based upon the facts, not feelings, it is just a bunch of hot air. Not bringing facts to an argument is kind of like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I always carry.

If you only want to take bucks, then that is the standard that you set for yourself. I have no problem with that. But if someone wants to confront me for taking a cow or a doe, they need to bring their facts, and a lunch. No threat of violence, but I will teach them a lesson about wildlife.

Thanks again for bringing an interesting topic to light!

Andy

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Dogfish ]

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Dogfish ]

[CAGEY]

I am a horn hunter and have been for a lot of years however i have on occasion taken a doe. I generally do not apply for a doe or cow tag. I have always based my choice on the reports of ODFW on ratio of cow/does and if there is an abundance then i dont mind taking one of them. I have taken huge bucks in eastern oregon and some real nice blactail bucks on this side so. I have been part of the taking of two royal class elk and i would love to be able to do that every year. It does not bother me one way or the other if someone takes a doe or a cow. Just my nickels worth. Cagey.

[Jellyhead]

I for one am a meat hunter. I was raised with the "clean shot" rather than the "biggest rack" mentality, and I was taught to have respect for whatever animal I shoot at, regardless if it has horns or not. I'll take the first clean shot (with my bow) on the first animal I have the opportunity with (except does w/fawns). As far as clean goes, that means 20 yds or less. I refuse to be a bull/buck only hunter if it means having to take longer shots to do so. I have as much of a feeling of acomplishment harvesting females as I would a male.

Getting within 20yds makes it challenging. If it gets too easy to get that close all the time, I'll start hunting a recurve. If that gets easy---I'll be shooting a stickbow and knapping my own broadheads.

The starkey expiriment should shed light on healthy herd populations and appropriate cow/bull ratios. I've noticed that alot of east-side elk hunts (rifle) have gone to spike only.

Good topic,

Aaron

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

I like that idea of going to a stick bow and making your own points to increase the challenge.

I think I might have to say, "Hello, my name is Bill, and I'm a horn hunter." Didn't know I was until I read this string. But if you check my garage and rec room wall you might believe I am.

I will say I do believe in doe hunting. Shoot, if there's an anterless hunt the biologists set the seasons for a good reason. They want to reduce the amount of animals on a given range or to improve the male/female ratio. There's lots of reasons for that and one benefit is it grows bigger males as after the population reduction there's more food to go around for the remainder.

Buying a doe tag to keep someone else from getting it, lets just say the concept of that doesn't sit too well with me.

Not everyone is a "master hunter" and kids just starting out might find it a real challenge and honor to get a doe/cow.

Except for my forays over to Montana where I hunt with a rifle for big bucks, I'm slowly converting over to archery to increase the challenge.

I went out archery hunting last year for the first time in 10 years and found out whitetails aren't as easy as mule deer. I think those whitetail are on stimulants the way they dart around. It wasn't until my third trip out that I was able to draw an arrow on a small buck. I was using a head mask and lost my bow sights in the weave of the mask. Buck survived... arrow didn't.

Shame Washington has a "pick your method" deer season as I'd like the opportunity to hunt with both a bow and a rifle. That's the way I did it in PA years ago. Deer season started the 1st of October, had the small game break in November and then rifle season started the first part of December.

[Dogfish]

Hi Bill,

My non-AHE friends call me a master baiter! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] I am pretty good at fishing. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I am no better a person than anyone when it comes to hunting, but I do put a lot of effort into it. I also do my best to share my knowledge, with the exception of my grouse hunting honey hole.

My nephew drew a doe tag this year in Eastern Washington in a youth only doe area, so I will be proud to guide him to his first deer. It will be a doe, but it will still be a trophy for him. They all are for me.

Andy

[Zen Leecher aka Bill W]

Andy,

Shame you don't have chukar spots as I might try to mooch those.

I see you duck hunt. Ever drift the Chehalis? I'd like to but haven't bought a boat yet. Got the motor (15 horse) and a small pram for flyfishing. The pram's only rated for a 2HP.

[Wet Willie]

Like JH, I too am a meat hunter. I archery hunt for elk and my belief is that any animal harvested with a bow and arrow is a trophy. Truth of the matter is " You can't eat the horns." However they do look great in pictures and on walls. There's nothing wrong with either philosophy. Some choose to hunt for prestige while others choose to hunt for a full freezer. I have harvested both cows and bulls (biggest, a 4x5, not a wall hanger though) and it does not matter to me. The main thing is that they are all clean, quick kills. BOE don't get me wrong, I would love to get a Hunting Video Bull but for me, that's not why I hunt.

[Gobbaworms]

Thinnning the does is as important as anything. As others have basically said, it promotes a healthier herd. I have also heard of studies where bulls will get too tired during the rut and the overall health of the herd suffers (but it doesn't sound like a bad problem to if your a bull).

I can also see it in the unit I've hunted for the past 5 years. Every year I've been there, hair tags where available. When I first hunted there, it was impossible to spot a buck through all the does. Now, I see about half the deer but I see way more bucks than ever.

My 2 cents.

[bigshark]

BAIT-O
I understand your point of view and I respect it....but it's not the only valid point of view. Let me ask you this..do you throw those girl fish back....those 30+ hen chinooks? Do you keep bucks only? I ask this with a smile and I hope you understand the simple point I'm trying to make. The biologist that made the recommendations for your unit regarding antlerless tages has to base it on something fairly well grounded in fact. Have you inquired as to who they are and called them and talked to them about your observations? They work for you and if your not satisfied with their recommendations then you should let them know about it. I found it worth my time to ask some questions and felt better when I got what I considered good answers. Those that have responded to your topic thus far are making pretty solid points in my jugement. As far as not having shot a set of horns like those on T.V. thats another matter.I have not looked at a newer Pope&Young book in years but last time I did look the blacktail I entered was still the largest 3 by 3 up till then. I tell you this only to make the point that it is simple luck....right place at the right time...No macho story...I was out at a pond in the valley going to shot a neutria with my work-out bow. My lab kept wimpering that "I see em" sound and quivering, I told her to keep quite. After several minuites of this she was still looking in the same place and still quivering....then I saw it...the buck and he was walking straight for the pond. I didn't move and the cross-wind wouldn't work against me. He walked to within 30 yards of us and stood broadside...thats plain luck.
There are eleven bulls to the credit of my longbow collection and I can tell you that it was a simple matter of being were they were not some hot-shot super-skills thing. Lastly, I would like to tell you that I have a buddy that who moved to the Seattle area a few years ago.In 30 years of chasing elk he had never taken one. Something always went wrong. Wind, not a clear shot, on and on.
Year before last we got together for late season elk out of Oakridge. He shot a cow and in all my years I have never seen such glee...He was so happy....I'm not sure I have ever seen anybody that elated before.
That trip was more fun for me than any of those that I took an animal on....And it was a cow shot by someone else....I think now that it was then that I knew the meaning of the saying: "Any elk with a stick is a good elk!" Just my point of view.

[Dogfish]

Hi Bill,

I know where there are chukar as well, but this year is my first year with my own dog, so I plan on hitting them while I take my nephew deer hunting. I flushed them two years in a row with regularity, but I was always grouse hunting in September when the Chukar were closed.

I started out hunting ducks, then on to other things, but I always come back to ducks.

I have lined up a few neat hunting opportunities. I have access to about 1200 acres of private land in the Chehalis river valley in the Porter area. I have been helping these farmers out for a few years by culling their pigeons and coyotes. I am up over 400 on the pigeons, and up to 20 on the coyotes.

This property has ducks, some geese, deer, and a herd of over 250 elk that frequent it. There are also pheasants, grouse, coyotes, doves and nutria. Lots of wood ducks, too!

The hunting is best a few days after the Chehalis overflows it's banks, but if we get enough rain, the hunting is still pretty good. I rarely need a boat, but sometimes I bring my canoe, and now this year I will bring a jonboat when the water is high.

You must have the AHE card for elk in the area, along with the goose id card to hunt geese.

Another good numbers hunt is a scoter hunt on saltwater for a clam/oyster farmer I know. Surf Scoters eat up to 200 immature clams a day. Multiply that by 600 ducks, and a 100 day period, and you can see the damage they can do. This hunt is a blast!
We always have room for more folks on these hunts. All you need is a stable boat, an anchor, lots of shells, and a gun that you don't mind getting saltwater on.

It is a quick hunt, only about an hour or two, but there is no shortage of shooting. My first time out, I went through a box of shells in less than five minutes! I was accustomed to decoying and jump shooting, but pass shooting was way different. My barrel was so hot, I didn't dare touch it. I improved my shooting, and by the fourth of fifth hunt, I cut my shell consumption down a lot. Hunts usually start in late November or early December.

I'll keep you in mind if I have a shortage of folks to hunt with. Maybe you could retrain me on flyfishing in trade.

Andy

[WaterDog]

Sounds to me Bait has been watching too many Disney flicks and is brainwashed. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

I too am a meat hunter. Doe's and bucks stink up the skillet the same. I have always wanted the wall hanger but have never taken one. I guess part of this also stems from past rules when there was hunter's choice. If we didnt bag a buck, a doe was fair game to put meat in the freezer. I also don't see that there is any difference in challenge. Hell, some seasons I never even saw a deer.

I was taught to respect the animal itself and when you pull that trigger, it's your duty to take care of it and not waste it.

I also agree with you Bait that there are less deer in the trask unit. Once the logging stopped and the clearcuts grew up, the deer were no where to be found. One year we saw 22 deer in a season, 3 years later we saw none. We move on to stott and havent hunted the trask in 4 years.

[Firedog]

I like nice racks as much as the next guy [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] but also like to have meat in the freezer. I have shot trophy class blacktails and I tell you what they tasted like crap. Then on the other hand I have shot does that were the best eating animals I have had. I have a cow tag for this year and look forward to the hunt, it is still a challenge because we are selective even with a cows. It is also good for the heard to have some of the cows and does thinned out, keeps the heards healthy. Just my .02

[Get Bit]

Hey BOE,
I can see both sides of the argument in this case. I'm sure most hunters, if given the opportunity to harvest a large buck or a doe
most will take the buck 99% of the time. The issue lies in sound biology. Each area of habitat has a carrying capacity for a certain number of animals regardless if they are bucks and does. Biology dictates that we take a # of both sexes to maintain herd size and stay within that carrying capacity. Its simply ODFW using the hunter as a tool. I am one that no matter how much heat ODFW takes I have faith that they know more then we do about the biology.They have a very difficult battle pleasing a very diverse public. I'll take a buck if one is there to shoot but will not hesitate to pull the trigger on a doe either. When most of my hunting takes place on weekends and I can't take 7-10 days, any animal is trophy to me. Just means more backstrap,tenderloin,pepperoni, etc, I think this is an issue that we can agree to disagree and still respect each other as outdoorsmen.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I have put some thought into why I am such an anti doe hunter since I started this thread.

As I said I was raised hunting the Trask for deer. When I started hunting, the trees were all like Christmas trees and the deer were abundant. It was a buck only thing as long as I can remember, I couldnt imagine anybody coming up there and wanting to shoot a doe, they were the breeding stock. I know a buck can only service so many does, but without the does, the numbers of deer will never come close to the carrying capacity. Then the biologist (and I use that term loosely) decided to make the last 5 days of the season a hair tag. You will never convince me there motivation was anything but monatarily motivated. More tags means more money for the program, and bigger raises. With no limit on the numbers of tags issued, and anybody can kill a doe for the last 5 days, that is not regulating anything, that is a blood bath. Several years ago they dropped the last 5 day thing and started to issue several thousand doe tags (not sure if it is 2000 or 4000 tags without checking). The unit cannot withstand that many of the breeding stock being taken out. And today the results of that are being shown. Waterdog said he has hunted the last couple years and hasnt seen a doe (either he is a crappy hunter [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] or the deer are not there). I believe the deer populations today are about 10% of what they were 20 years ago. Granted the trees have grown up and the logging has been limited which has cut back on the amount of food to a degree. 15 years ago the entire nestucca drainage was almost a solid clearcut [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] and food was plentiful.

With my hunting experience being limited to one area of the country, that had no doe hunting for many many years, then doe hunting was added I am biased that it should have never been added.

For the last 3 years I have deer hunted east. And I have seen where doe populations need regulated. The 9000 acre ranch we hunted, would show us 300 deer before lunch with about 25 bucks in the mix. These deer are over populated and eat a lot of the farmers wheat each year. The farmers look at the deer like I would a rat.

I can see locations where doe hunting could be a good thing. The Trask unit is not one of them.

Nobody will ever convice me the biologist [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] have the deer and elks best interst in mind. Most everything is ran by the almighty dollar in ome way or another. (Just a few years ago the gamewardens were regulated on how many miles they could drive in a day, trying to save a few dollars. They couldnt get to where we were hunting without exceeding their quota in miles. [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] ) I dont want to put down the biologist for trying to do there job, but I dont believe they have a very good handle on what is going on in the state.

I cannot be force to believe the biologist really know what is going on. I know a few of them, and they dont know squat in general. Nice people, good hearts, but they find the results they go looking for, before they know the data. I dont doubt they work hard to get there degree, and may work hard at there job, but it is not a science where there is one correct answer.

I am sure the closing of the sturgeon season at Astoria just happened to coincide with the opening day of coho season. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] I wonder if the motels and every other business that makes a buck from the fisherman driving to the coast had any input into that decesion. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

I have never failed to fill my buck tag in 26 years straight. Two of those years were with a bow, the rest rifle. I have never failed to fill a bull elk tag with a rifle. I wish I would have kept track of how many tags that is, but between 12 and 15. The years I have not filled my elk tag is when I bought a bow tag for elk. Not allowing myself to kill a cow did handicap my results with a bow.

I will continue to hunt horns because that is the way I was raised and anything else would be making it easy on myself.

I hope I didnt offend any biogist if we have any on ifish. I believe what I believe and change dont come easy.

[Dogfish]

Hi BOE,

Wow! 2000 to 4000 doe tags in an area? Most or hunting units in Washinton are smaller in size than the average county, some larger, some quite a bit smaller. That many hair tags in an area sounds excessive, and if that area is the size of a county, I can see your point about having doubts about the biologist's logic.

The only reasons that I can think of for such a large number of doe permits is that there is a lot of damage to the forest or crops, or the area has a high density human population, and there is some worry of car strikes, etc..

The most doe permits issued in any Washington unit is 1,000, but that is for one of those areas near Spokane that I told you about earlier with lots of crop damage, and that is for whitetailed deer. The most hair tags available in any blacktail unit is 200, with one of those units being about 10 miles from me.

I can respect the fact that you want to limit your kill to only bucks, but there is sound biological fact to support the taking of does.

The biologists have a difficult job determining the exact population and ratios of doe/buck and cow/bull. They can really only do population samples, as they can't just take away the trees for a day, ask the animals to stand still, and then go out an count them. They do have a much better idea of the populations though, because they either go out and collect the data directly, or they are in a position to collect it quickly from the collection sources. I know three biologists for the Washington state, one as a friend, and I don't take any offense to your opinions, but that is all you have, an opinion. They have the info and and the research that the armchair QB/hunter does not have.

I completely disagree with you on the matter of biologists wanting to increase doe tags so that they can get a bigger raise. If they destroy the resource, revenues will drop in the future. It is the same in the timber industry. They both want to maintain sustainable yields for future job security. Your suppositions go completely against the mission statement for odfw.

Show me a fact, any fact at all, not feelings or a guess, to support your argument and I will certainly consider it. Until you show up with some facts, I will only consider the bulk of your statements as whining. You can't even quote the number of doe tags for the area that you are complaining about, or the number of does actually harvested. In 2000 it was 1563 tags, antlerless OR spike, with a harvest of only 320 does. The previous season only 273 does were taken in that unit.

You are welcome in my boat, anytime, as I am sure we would have a good, spirited discussion. Andy

[bigshark]

Bait-O
I understand where you are coming from on this subject and don't think any of the folks on this board will fault you in the slightest. I don't put in for the tags either. But thats only because its the way I want to hunt. On the number of tags a unit gets, my understanding of the process is they determine how many animals they want taken and then consider the normal success ratio. If the unit has a historical harvest of 30% they will offer 2000 tags in hopes of
taking out 600 animals. As you are aware things can and do go wrong.....Some years back you may recall that the Sled Springs unit offered a large number of rifle cow tags for a late hunt. A heavy snow fall pushed the critters down onto the flats by the highway. Some say the success ratio was
100% and it ruined the unit to this day. I don't fly over the unit any more but I can tell you that when I was, the number of animals I saw told me to go elsewhere. I tell you this story to illustrate that good intentions can go wrong. The rest of the story you may find of more interest....You see I happen to know the biologist for the area at the time and we threw a lot of brews down together...First hand from the biologist...no cow tags were ever recommended
for the unit that year....Could it be that there was someone futher up the ladder that wanted it?....For what reason?....To raise a few bucks?...or please somebody that wanted those elk out of there?....As the bumper sticker says....---- Happens...The people that shot those animals aren't to blame. But with nearly 1000 gut piles in a few hundred acres one would think that the Game Department would have stepped in and closed the hunt down.....Well it was a long time ago
and maybe it won't ever happen again...I probably should keep my mouth shut anyway...
I've ruined my supper talking about it.

[WaterDog]

Bait,

Antlerless tags issued in the trask unit for 2000 = 1563

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/...1OregonPDF.pdf

[Sockeye]

BOE; You must be a great hunter or never have to work for a living to be able to harvest that many bucks/bulls. I don't have that much time between working and raising my kids. As you can probably tell I am a meat hunter. I have no problem with the way you believe. In fact we need more people like you. It makes it easer for me to draw a cow/doe tag. The area I hunt (yakima) has a healthy herd of elk. Also you need to remember that there is no or very little wintering land left for the animals so they need to be feed all winter long. They have feeding stations set up where they haul in food loaded in trucks. People keep insisting on moving "out to the country" and the animals range keeps getting smaller. There basicly is none left any more, that is why they have to feed them. There are only so many they can support so they need to keep the herd in check. The only bulls we are allowed to hunt here are spikes anyway, they keep the big boys to rebuild the herd. Just for the record if I came accross a bull/buck first that is what I would prefer. Also if I don't do it someone else would. I understand your logic about the females having the babies and they should be protected. I am not familer with your area so cannot comment there. Here is a situation that I prefer to focas my energy. The Yakima unit has been spike only for a number of years now to bring the number of bulls per 100 cows up. The elk spend the winter on the feeding station because they know they will be fed. They do not run when humans approach. Also the snow is quite deep. Yet the Indians are allowed to drive in there when ever they want, right up to the biggest bull (remember they don't run) and blast his brains out. So no I don't have a problem taking a cow/doe to feed my family once in awhile. Just my .02 cents worth!! Good hunting to you!!

[Osprey]

For the record I have shoot a Cow with my bow early on,I was out of work and I needed the meat,but now....heck I've passsed up many a legal buck in the past few years.

Hey Sockeye,I still haven't heard the outcome of the trial involveing the low life that shot I beleive was 2 bulls at the feed station at Oakridge.his so called tribe wasn't even from the eastside [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] ....Os

[MetalHead]

BOE interesting post. And I cant fault you your opinions or what you believe. But I for one do not intentionally hunt horns. For many years (16) I was a rifle hunter and shot only bucks and bulls because that was what the tag was good for, never killed a cow, One year I did kill a doe by accident I didnt see here standing behind the buck and when the bullet went through him it hit her in the spine. I have been strickly a bow hunter for the last 10 years I have taken 6 bucks and 3 does all the does were with out fawn and yes I will agree that bucks are harder to hunt. But when it comes to Elk the cows are definately harder I have taken 5 Elk in the last 10 years 1 cow and 4 bulls. I find it much easier to take a bull because you can goad him into coming to you by bugling and cow calling where the cows just ignore your calls. Now it may be different if your a stand hunter but I cant stand to sit very long and I have to move around. It is my expirience that cows lead the herd, try to work a big bull with cows and you will see that 90% of the time your stalk is blown by the cows you didnt see sounding the alarm. I have never in my 43 years seen a bull bark but I've seen at least 100 cows do it.

So I guess I hunt for meat and the pleasure of being outdoors, my grandfather and father tought me to hunt when I was young it was food for the table and they killed whatever thier tag allowed maybe thats where I got my ethics of hunting. I am a firm believer in taking the shot thats presented when hunting Elk. My partner has hunted with me for the last 10 years with a bow and has only taken one animal a doe and he was happy as day his daughters were born. The bull I killed tuesday I was trying to get him a shot on but when it came into the call he couldnt get a clear shot so I took it.

You mentioned in your post that you need to make it more of challenge, if so put down the rifle and simply hunt with bow only and then consentrate on the herd cow. Shes the one that never has a calf with her and shes as big as house (800+ lbs.) usually she's at least 7 or 8 years old and has seen more hunters in the woods than you have. She's always watching and if she even suspects somethings amiss she sounds the alarm and every Elk within the sound of her bark heads for higher ground. I've been trying to get her for 10 years, thats alot of meat in the freezer but she's always been a step ahead of me. The one time I got to fling an arrow at her she was 30 yards away broadside and when the string twanged she dropped flat on her belly like a whitetail and the arrow sailed right over her back. If your looking for a challenge that will do it I promise you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Bait O' Eggs]

Metalhead - You are correct, targeting the lead cow with a bow would be a very difficult hunt. She is the one that usually gets the last laugh with me. I have seen elk jump the string and get out of the way before the arrow gets 20 yards. It is amazing that an elk can move that fast and know which way to move.

I believe the Ochoccos contains one of the finest gene pools in the state for large horns. I have put in for a rifle tag for several years so I can hopefully harvest one of the big boys. I have in the past been rejected many times for the rifle tag so I have been chasing them with a bow. The last couple of years have been tough hunting with high heat and no rain. The weeks vacation I took last year was during extreme heat and we couldnt get the elk to move or find them. I walked countless miles and never hear a bugle and only found a couple little bulls to hunt. Three years ago was a great year for us for getting into bulls. They were talking and we had many oportunities we didnt quite capitalize on (usually a lead cow to blame on the deal).

This year I have finally drawn the rifle tag so I have a better chance to shoot a nicer bull. I am torn, I have waited for many years to draw the tag. If I get a rag horn opportunity in the first couple days I dont know if I will shoot. With only a 5 day season, it may be foolish to pass on any opportunity at a bull. [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img] We will have to wait and see how things play out. It takes 3 preference points to draw a tag so it will be 4 years +/- before I can rifle hunt here again.

Hunting season this year has me very excited. It will be one of my best chances to harvest a nice bull.

[MetalHead]

B.O.E. I feel your pain brother. Since they moved our season to the first 14 days of September every year but one has been hot and dry, then add on to that all the people in the woods for the last weekend of summer and it makes for some very shy animals.

This may help a little, stay high and deep into the timber when looking for the big boy with a bow. Find a seep where they wallow to keep the bugs off and you will find bulls, they love the mud (almost as much as my labs). I'm tossed on this next one if you hunt them when they are bugling its much easier to locate them and to judge thier size. The big boys will bugle and give away thier location but its been my expirience that if you pressure them and move in bugling they just take thier cows and move on. (either they know your a hunter or they have what you want and your going to have to work for it cows). When bugling stay away from those BULL OF THE WOODS (deep,raspy)bugles, and try to immitate a spike or raghorn. You wouldnt want to challenge some guy 6'6" and neither does he. When you've located him, switch to cow calling (this works best if you have 2 guys so you can sound like more elk and spread the sound) also turn your head away from him so he thinks your going away this will usually get him to come to bring you back into the herd. Also his cows will for the most part ignore your cow calling but they will always perk up to bugling (women love to be fought over).

If you hunt them prior to the rut when thier not bugling you dont have to worry about a cow blowing your stalk, but they are more difficult to locate, look for the nastiest spot you can find whether it be a thick tangled ridge top with lots of escape roots or a deep dark hole. For the most part Elk will take the easiest route but not always, and big bulls can move through blowdowns and doghair timber like we go to the fridge for another beer.
Lastly dont push it, if the wind isnt right or worse theres no wind back off and wait til its right. I found the hard way that on dead calm days the thermals carry scent down hill until the sun is on the area you want to go into then they switch and the scent moves back up the hill. Toward evening as it cools off it travels back down the hill.

You probably know all this but maybe it will help. Good luck

[Baldpate Basher]

Hey BOE,
The only horn I need to wory about when I see a deer or Elk is the one on my car. Those dam* things can just dismantle a minivan!
Good huntin'

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Baldpate Basher ]