The Ethics Of Hunting Sage Rats And Predators

Swamp Puppy · 03-01-2005, 02:53 PM

This had been brought up in another thread where "ethics" was in discussion, but apparently it offended a long time member and i have been chastised for it not being it's own thread. so, here we can discuss whether or not hunting "rats" and other varmits/predators is actually an ethical practice.

so, if you kill it and don't eat it..is that ethical?

skein · 03-01-2005, 03:04 PM

Hey, I eat 'em. I use the same recipe I use for cockroaches.

I wonder if whoever was offended (I missed that part) has ever killed a mole that was tearing up his lawn. Have him multiply that by several thousand and.... nah, that usually doesn't work either.

Tell you what I'll do. I'll take a brick of tofu out with me and shoot it just to prove that I'm an equal opportunity slayer. And I'm not going to eat the tofu either. I'd rather eat the rat.

Skein

Rusty · 03-01-2005, 03:10 PM

I'm with Skein on this one! I have seen the devastation sage rats cause in alfalfa fields and have witnessed "up close and personal" the remains of many deer in Central Oregon that were the results of coyote predation.

Ooops sorry, I've got to go, my coyote stew is boiling over and ruining my sage rat pie!

Rusty

skein · 03-01-2005, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Ooops sorry, I've got to go, my coyote stew is boiling over and ruining my sage rat pie!

I think BOE fixed that for us one night on the Ifish Predator Hunt. Only he called it cobbler.

Skein

ultramag · 03-01-2005, 03:14 PM

I am with Rusty and Skein on this one. Is it un-ethical to bomb your house for bugs or ants or ? People get way to carried away with these ethical questions. Mother nature isn't kind at all.

Nothing in nature dies peacefully.

Swamp Puppy · 03-01-2005, 03:17 PM

well i guess we are all in agreement so far. i really have no problem with the elimintaion of vermin or predators. actually, i am hoping for a nice 'yote pelt this weekend...if the warm weather hasn't got them shedding off all that winter fur.

Beaver93 · 03-01-2005, 03:18 PM

It all goes back to "Kill or be Killed". Science argues a human's primary objective is to be biologically successful. That means to produce offspring.

In order to ensure the birthing and rearing of offspring, consumption of food is paramount to success. Elimination of competition for food is also paramount to success, hence the elimination of OTHER predators. Elimination of competion for food is practiced on all levels of the food chain. Humans just happen to excel at it.

Ensuring an adequate food supply is also extremely important. Elimination of pests that are primary competitors for the food that nourishes the human food supply makes sense, hence elimination of the sage rats that eat the grass and alfalfa cattle, deer, elk, geese, etc. feed upon.

My brother-in-law has an ethical responsibility to feed, clothe, and provide shelter for my sister and my newborn neice (8lb 8oz 22inches long born 2/14/05). He is a cattle rancher in Lakeview. In order to provide for his family it is necessary to eliminate the predators that feed on his newborn calves. It's also necessary for him to eliminate the rodents that feed on his alfalfa. By extension, it is my responsibility to help him do this.

Therefore, it is not only ethical to kill predators and sage rats, humans are morally obligated to do so.

Boy, my toungue really starts to leave a mark when I leave it in my cheek this long :tongue:, however, I do believe that part about my brother-in-law being morally justified, and I beleive I am morally justified as well.

newportfisher · 03-01-2005, 04:46 PM

I kind of agree with Mossberg that if you kill something you should eat it. I dont believe killing sage rats is ethical....they were here first but I do do it. Its very fun but I think unethical.

TheTexan · 03-01-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Ooops sorry, I've got to go, my coyote stew is boiling over and ruining my sage rat pie!

I think BOE fixed that for us one night on the Ifish Predator Hunt. Only he called it cobbler.

Skein

and I think it was us boiling over in the 90 degree tent!

waterfowlin101 · 03-01-2005, 05:06 PM

Ok...I was the one who originally brought ths up. A bit of background so one can follow my thinking.

On another thread we were discussing the ethics of shooting a Dusky even though it is legal to do so. Many folks jumped on the "I'm so high and mighty band-wagon" Not a bad place to be...I find myself there often enough

So, it occurred to me that many of these same folks who condemned a perfectly legal action (killing the Dusky), on the basis of ethics, probably also participated in sage rat hunting, coyote hunting, and crow wackin'. These in turn are legal activities, but are they ethical.

I was brought up believing that I should eat everything that I kill...do I do that to a tee...No! Let me state clearly that I am not opposed to killing any of the above stated critters, in fact I do indeed participate.

But...

It does seem though that as a group of outdoorsman we sometimes do let our ethics slide a bit due to the fact that an action is deemed "legal", by the state.

Are we right or wrong for doing this?

and more importantly......

Are any of us truly ethical enough to judge another man's ethics?

I for one am not....and that was the point I was trying to make.

Jon

Bait O' Eggs · 03-01-2005, 06:35 PM

I dont care if the indians were here first, or if the sage rat was here first. If I want to go shoot rats I am gonna go shoot rats as long as it is legal.

I dont plan on eating them either.

I have been told umpteen times you should eat what you kill. But why,

does it sound good, :whazzup: does that phrase give you warm fuzzy feelings.

I dont know who first said you should eat everything you kill, but it doesnt mean much to me.

And I dont know why it means much to anybody. :whazzup: Heck I dont even eat all the food I buy.

There are always left overs that go in the garbage.

The mentality of the clean plate club (you need to eat all the food on your plate before you leave the table) sure sounds good on the surface, just like you need to eat all you kill. Of course that mentality of eating till all your food is gone, has led to the most over weight people in the nation. You should quit eating when your full, not when all the food is gone.

Of course that leaves food for the garbage which must be bad.

Pretty tough to tell your mom she was wrong all those years when she made you clean your plate up before you left the dinner table, so you pass on the same bad habits to your kids. :tongue:

If your ethics are to not shoot rats and yotes and such, good for you, dont do it. When somebody starts trying to impose their ethics on others is when the real problem starts and hunters get divided. If you dont like the idea of hunting cougars with hounds, dont do it, but dont tell those that enjoy that, they shouldnt do it either.

And if the weatherman was correct with his prediction of the cold front for our yote trip, we could have had ice cream with the cobbler.

Bait O' Eggs · 03-01-2005, 06:35 PM

oops double post

GO-FASTER · 03-01-2005, 06:41 PM

KILL-EM-ALL

ultramag · 03-01-2005, 06:49 PM

BOE

billc_sbio · 03-01-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Ok...I was the one who originally brought ths up. A bit of background so one can follow my thinking.

On another thread we were discussing the ethics of shooting a Dusky even though it is legal to do so.

So, it occurred to me that many of these same folks who condemned a perfectly legal action (killing the Dusky), on the basis of ethics, probably also participated in sage rat hunting, coyote hunting, and crow wackin'. These in turn are legal activities, but are they ethical.

Jon

Jon,

My take on this is not really about "ethics" as to whether or not it's legal, or whether or not you eat everything you shoot with a gun or splat with a fly swatter. I mean where do you draw the line (on eating anything you kill)?

It seems to me that the question of ethics really has to do with the intent of what's trying to be accomplished by responsible, (hopefully) knowledgeable people while hunting/shooting/fishing etc.

A similar test of ethics, using the "eat test" would be, would you catch/kill the last salmon/s in a river with a run that's nearly extinct? Even if you did EAT them after you caught them?

The "ethics" question was really "what do you do about a species you're trying to help recover" rather than whether you eat them or not, or because it's legal...

There doesn't seem to be any similar "threatened numbers" issue in the case of Sage Rats. At least that's how I see it.

Accraholic · 03-02-2005, 12:18 AM

Maybe a guy should shoot a deer for natures scavengers for each one that he eats himself..........

I really doubt if the animal that you eat is impressed by that fact, heck taking the animal from the environment where it lives into your house so that you can flush the remains into your big-o city sewer system is probably the worst thing that could happen biologically speaking. Humans are full of baloney when it comes to Politcally Correct reasons for the stuff that we like to do.

Killing stuff is fun. That is the only real reason anyone does it, the fact that many things which can be killed also make good eating is a bonus.........

The fact that many people eat much waterfowl is proof that they like to kill stuff, and will even eat it if you let them kill some more.........

waterfowlin101 · 03-02-2005, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Killing stuff is fun. That is the only real reason anyone does it

Speak for yourself buddy...that couldn't be more from the truth for me. :whazzup: " I hunt because my father hunted and because his father did before him. " I hunt because it is in my blood, and is nearly the only thing in this day and age that ties me to ancestors long past. I hunt because whenever I pick up a gun to clean, a decoys to paint, a rod to respool, or take a walk in the offseason and run across all the game I couldn't find during the season, something stirs within me, something undescribable to those whoo don't feel it too.

I am sorry for you if you don't get that same feeling too.....but killing just because it is fun, and it's the onlyy reason we do it

What a silly, narcissistic, comment. It couldn't be further from th truth for me.

Jon

RoscoeP · 03-02-2005, 07:21 AM

Well said Jon!

Ditto that. I feel it too.

D$_KFalls · 03-02-2005, 07:34 AM

I know that feeling, too.

Killing, in and of itself, is not what I'd describe as "fun". It saddens me that there are hunters out there that feel this way.

Gary T. · 03-02-2005, 07:40 AM

I have to add my agreement with Jon and Roscoe. I have more fun planning and preparing for a hunt or fishing trip than I do actually shooting or landing the game. I agree with the "general concept" that we should eat what we take from the environment, but there are common sense exceptions. Gary T.

Accraholic · 03-02-2005, 07:46 AM

If you boys were honest then you'd be photographers.......

I got all the same crap as you about loving to be out there doing it, done it for generations, great experiances with family and friends, bla-bla-bla.....................

But we don't like it when we forget the shells now do we........................?

DukAddict · 03-02-2005, 07:51 AM

I agree with Bait O eggs. Doesnt matter who was here first, its legal and its fun, its going to be done! :grin:

waterfowlin101 · 03-02-2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

But we don't like it when we forget the shells now do we........................?

Boy...you are one know it all smartguy aren't ya'??

Again...speak for yourself and not others. One of my most memorable waterfowl hunts Dad and I were on Mud Lake in very high water. I was 15. His gun failed to work and we had no spare. We traded off on shots all day long and shot limits of greenheads. And you know what...two of my favorite shots of the day, the gun wasn't even in my hand.

Another trip in the W. Valley my dumbass stepped away from the blind for a few minuutes to do god know what. Dad had number four steel in for close duck shots. Out of nowhere came a pair of honkers. I ducked down in the fencerow a hundred yards away and proceded to watch dad fold the pair of them. My heart swelled up with ppride and I could hardly contain myself. I was more a part of that kill than my old man will ever know. Again, I didn't even fire a shot.

You sound like an amateur outdoorsman by the way you talk. It scares me to think their are ppeople out there like yourself who can only think of the kill. "THE KILL" 5 percent or less of every hunt. I am out there for a whole nother reason.

Jon

D$_KFalls · 03-02-2005, 07:58 AM

Accraholic, I truly feel sorry for you that killing is the reason you hunt. In fact, it makes me nervous that there are people with your mentality sharing the field & stream with me.

By the way, I've been out in the woods and on the water with camera only on many occasions, so please don't question my intentions or philosophy about why I hunt.

D

Lawdog · 03-02-2005, 08:02 AM

Quote:

If you boys were honest then you'd be photographers.......

I got all the same crap as you about loving to be out there doing it, done it for generations, great experiances with family and friends, bla-bla-bla.....................

But we don't like it when we forget the shells now do we........................?

Very sad! You have your reasons for hunting and that's fine, but please don't lump them in with mine. I was raised very differently. I enjoy hunting and killing is a part of it. Only a small part of it for me. I take nearly as much pleasure from mushroom hunting. It's all about finding your quarry, but don't forget to look at the scenery along the way. IMO Lawdog

skein · 03-02-2005, 08:14 AM

Hey, guys, don't let this guy take you for a ride. He's just pulling your chains. Why let him take up our time. None of us are likely to ever hunt with him anyway.

Skein

D$_KFalls · 03-02-2005, 08:24 AM

Quote:

None of us are likely to ever hunt with him anyway

That's for damn sure.

Quote:

Why let him take up our time.

Take up our time now on a message board, or take up our time later when we have to defend our rights to hunt in the face of this mentality?

Salmo trutta · 03-02-2005, 08:44 AM

Here is a link to an essay by a lady who used to be an anti hunter who now is an avid hunter: It's titled appropriately "Why I Hunt"

cheers

http://backcountryhunters.org/index....nk=debruyckere

Accraholic · 03-02-2005, 08:49 AM

bassackward · 03-02-2005, 11:32 AM

Good story. Not many with go out and hunt just so they can "see both sides". she has the right idea about what hunting is all about!

steeliez · 03-02-2005, 05:32 PM

If it was the last day of sage rat season, and you saw a dusky sage rat with a collar, would you shoot it?

yankemnbankem · 03-02-2005, 05:53 PM

yup! In fact, I would shoot it twenty times if I could. May the strong survive. It is good target practice for later when your killing eatable things and it helps with depression so you dont have to shoot people. Plus when you leave the carcasses it not only fertilizes the ground, it also feeds the bugs and other predators you intend to shoot another day. Call it the involentary food chain if you will.

yankemnbankem · 03-02-2005, 05:54 PM

As I am thinking of it..... I am waiting for my new 6x24x50 scope to arrive. I want to be able to do an eyeball shot at 200 yards.

skein · 03-02-2005, 06:07 PM

Yer mah man, Yankum.

Skein

billc_sbio · 03-02-2005, 07:17 PM

Quote:

As I am thinking of it..... I am waiting for my new 6x24x50 scope to arrive. I want to be able to do an eyeball shot at 200 yards.

An ETHICAL Eyeball shot! :grin:

Bendman · 03-02-2005, 07:53 PM

To me sage rats fall under the category of pest. I don�t like to kill things that don�t bother anything or anyone for no reason. But killing a sage rat is no different than trapping a mouse under your kitchen sink. I think that this whole thread is preaching to the choir (sp?). I mean come on we are sportsmen not anti hunting tree huggers.

Martin85 · 03-03-2005, 09:35 AM

More dead sage rats = more food for the predators = more chances for another predator hunt and I'm ready to go.....

simple math Skien = dead coyotes and I want to be just like him

Grantspastor · 03-03-2005, 10:37 AM

When I was a kid in NE Oregon, we had a lot of fun shooting them, and to be honest the idea of ethics never crossed our minds. It still wouldn't, even though it's been quite a while since I last shot one.

One thing does disturb me though. Am I reading this right Skein? Do you NOT like Tofu!? :shocked:

yankemnbankem · 03-03-2005, 11:09 AM

this just in: Yankem receives 6x24x50 with lighted reticle, mil dot scope with shade extension for his NEH .17 hmr sage rat gun! can you say eyeball shot at 175 yards? This scope is being used by most military personel in Iraq and has been known to be used for 400 yard kills. Perfect cure for relieving stress. I just peered out my office window at a ford explorer about 100 yards out and could see bugs on the ford emblem like they were on the tip of my nose!!!!! this will bring new meaning to the phrase "red dawn"

skein · 03-03-2005, 11:27 AM

Grantspastor,

Good to hear from you again, and well, let's just say I think tofu was meant to be shot. I don't even want to touch the carcass.

Skein

Grantspastor · 03-03-2005, 11:56 AM

I agree...the carcass is gross!

bassackward · 03-03-2005, 02:59 PM

...and smells worse than a gutshot elk

billc_sbio · 03-03-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Grantspastor,

I think tofu was meant to be shot.

Skein

The important question here is "Is it ETHICAL to SHOOT Tofu?!!" :grin:

RODACTION · 03-03-2005, 05:16 PM

One option to all of this is to eat, "Mock Sage Rat Tofu" you can find it at up-scale vegitarian restaurants. Dang, I love Tofu !!!

BrotherWolf · 03-03-2005, 05:32 PM

WOULD YA PISSS OF THIS TIME?
SAME AS THE LAST ONE??

baltz526 · 03-03-2005, 06:14 PM

the ethical question is easy. if there are to many belding ground squirrels in a field thin them out, if there are to many coyotes/cougars in an area thin them out.

Salty Walty · 03-03-2005, 11:48 PM

I don't consider shooting Sage Rats hunting. I consider it shooting at a live target. If you hunt down a fly in your house and kill it with a fly swatter. Do you eat it? There IS a difference between game and a pest.

03-04-2005, 08:27 AM

Quote:

the ethical question is easy. if there are to many belding ground squirrels in a field thin them out, if there are to many coyotes/cougars in an area thin them out.

Yup,
Squeaks (sage rats, Belding ground squirrels) and coyotes a place in the system and as long as it's in balance things should be left alone. Coyotes eat squeaks and rabbits and keep their numbers down. I haven't killed a coyote for almost 20 years.

Now, IN NO WAY should anyone feel that I disapprove of shooting them. Just remember that they aren't vermin, usually, squeaks can overpopulate fast. Now remember, I'm a former trapper (and want to start again) and I raise sheep. Vermin, to me, are loose running domestic dogs. If you shoot a coyote you should skin it and sell the hide.

Now you are all messed up with the tofu. Tofu is soybean curd and soybeans should never be killed. Do you know how traumatic and painfully it is for the poor soybean to be pulled out of the ground, removed from it's safe shell, ground into powder and fermented? One should NEVER harm a soybean or a tofu. I can't remember when the last time I say a herd of tofu, can anyone of you?

Killertraylor · 03-04-2005, 08:40 AM

I think there's a difference between "ethical" and being "respectful" of life. I shoot coyotes, ground squirrels and other rodents if they are a problem, but I always feel a little remorseful for ending the life of the critter I shot. I always think of it in terms of - I'll bet when Mr. Coyote woke up this morning he dind't know he had a 9:30 am appointment with a .22-250 bullet. But in the end, I think keeping that 9:30 appointment is better than his 10:30 am appointment with a newborn fawn...I hope in the end, God agrees with me.

nitrobass · 03-04-2005, 08:47 AM

We really need a hunting season to start up again

:lurk:

Grantspastor · 03-04-2005, 09:26 AM

Keta...this is a different, more sinister kind of Tofu. We're not talking about the kind that's made from Soybeans. No..we're talking about the kind that comes from the dreaded "Tofudebeeste", as described by Gary Larsen in The Far Side.

03-04-2005, 09:30 AM

Blue Tip Spinner · 03-04-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Now you are all messed up with the tofu. Tofu is soybean curd and soybeans should never be killed. Do you know how traumatic and painfully it is for the poor soybean to be pulled out of the ground, removed from it's safe shell, ground into powder and fermented? One should NEVER harm a soybean or a tofu. I can't remember when the last time I say a herd of tofu, can anyone of you?