Pounds of pressure?

[Jennie@ifish]

So, the docs say I shouldn't fight a springer....

We'll see. Bill has been out testing laws of physics all morning. :smile:

We can't figure out though if we are doing it right.
You know, it's the isometrics, and the constant pull against dead weight that is the worst.

However, we are trying to measure the weight of a fighting fish, and how much it really is. We are going with the fact that I should "lift" no more than 10 pounds.

So, he set the drag real tight, put the rod in the holder, and tied a postal scale to the end of the line. Then, he started pulling. At 4 and a half pounds of pressure, the line started to peel off, even though the drag is set really tight!

Weird! It felt like more than 4.5 pounds of pressure.

What are we doing wrong? If anything? Can you think how to measure the pull of a fighting large fish?

Jen

[greenbuttskunk]

jen, just target 9 pound springers, and you'll be fine! :grin:

[Pete]

You might try jerking on the line with the scale to simulate a thrashing fish ... it's those surges that probably are the greater force.

[WheresMyBobber]

Your post cracked me up! I can just see you with a calculator, slide rule, scale and any other tool trying to figure out how to be able to catch some springers. More power to you!

I think what I would do is talk to the Dr(s) about it. There is a difference between dead lifting 10lbs and fighting a fish that may pull more than 10lbs of pressure against your rod. I'd ask the Dr what the intent of the 10lb limit is, then ask him/her about fighting a salmon and see if the weight limit would actually apply to fighting a fish since you'll be mostly pulling with your arms and not really lifting. They might say that fighting the fish is ok!

[Thumper]

Jennie:

Remember the teetertotter. The problem lies in the fulcrum effect of the rod. If you have an 8-ft. rod lifting 10 pounds of weight (or that is your drag setting), then you have 80 ft. pounds of torquing force at your wrist. The shorter the rod, the less the felt weight, and vice versa. If the rod is one foot long, then a 10-pound weight feels like 10 pounds. If the rod is twenty feet long, then the weight feels like 200 pounds, etc.

If you want to fight heavier fish, choose a shorter rod.

[Chromaflage]

The only way to accurately determine the pressures is with a dynamometer. Most likely the hook set alone will take about 30# to 40# pressure. I'm not trying to be discouraging, I'm merely basing this on my experience with ergonomic assessments. Normally people are surprised how much force they use when lifting objects using a jerking motion. It might make for an interesting study though.

CrF

[ampersat]

A couple of things:
1. Static resistance is greater than moving resistance. This is why when something starts to slide, it doesn't stop on its own. Have Bill pull on the scale until the drag starts to move. This is the force you will feel when the fish starts its next run.
2. The force you feel at the working end of the rod is much greater than the force at the tip of the rod. Say you've got a 7' boat rod and there's 1.5' between the bottom of the rod to the grip above the reel seat. 4.5# of force at 7' (the tip of the rod) translates to 21# of force at the upper grip. Use a second scale strapped to the upper grip of the rod to prove it. By my calculations based on the lengths mentioned above, you could only handle 2.14# of force at the rod tip.

This also means no net duty for you this year.

[Jennie@ifish]

I talked to the doctors about it. They said no big fish. Only little fish.
I'm trying to prove them wrong. If they are right, I'm willing to give it up for as long as my kids are in school, or at home.
If they are wrong, I'd be really, really happy!
I appreciate all of your comments and will do more experimenting. Very interesting--

Jen

[pnwcoast]

Jennie, for me the 10 lb. limit was for lifting, pushing, or pulling. The limit was only for 6 weeks after the surgery. After 6 weeks my Drs. said the Sternum is fully heeled and there is no longer any risk.

[crabbait]

You need a harness, Jennie, like they use on a big tuna stand-up outfit only downsized. This would take the weight off you arms and wrists and put it on your shoulders and legs. Bigger muscle groups.

[USS Minnow]

0

[ampersat]

Here's an idea for you; you're going to look really stupid doing this but if you're serious I think it might work. Pro golfers use those silly looking chin putters so why not full body fishing?

Standard rod in the holder but you have a reinforced piece of PVC pipe anchored to your foot and ready to go (wear really good footwear if you do this). After the hook is set and the fight is on, they slip the rod butt into the pipe and hand off to you. The pole is now extended quite a bit by the pipe This would involve more of your body (spread the stress) and get your point of force closer to the rod tip. 4.5# of force at the tip gets you 9# of force at the middle of the rod. It just might work ya' know?

I would talk to your doctor though. Fighting a fish while sitting is different than standing up and using your legs to fight the fish. Perhaps you can take a rod with you and have a physical therapist make some recommendations about positioning.

[Seefood Man]

And after you figure what rod length, line test, drag setting ect to use then you have to think about,, Now if I swing a 2 pound fish bonker at 20 mph do I exceed the ten pound limit if the energy of the impact is transmitted through the handle? :grin:
OH some of the problems we face post-op :grin: :grin:
PS Just stay away from the eyefish style bonker till fall

[5 Salt]

Man we have a lot engineers out there...lets try a simple approach.

You want measure the weight your are experiencing, not your line. As such you will need to measure at pressure or weight at the spot where you hang onto your rod during a fight.

While holding your bathroom/postal scale with both hands have your partner side the butt of your springer rod into your favorite spot on your hip and rest upper rod grip* on the center of the scale you are holding**. Now have your partner pull on your fishing line to simulate a running/fighting salmon and note weight readings on scale. Set your drag until the weight shown on the scale is 10lbs or less. You should try steady line pressure as well as quick pulls to ensure you are not exceeding your Doc's limits.

* Upper Rod grip, or where ever your non-reeling hand likes to hold on when fighting springers should be the only point contacting the scale surface. Tape a small block of wood to center of scale for rod grip or rod shaft to set on during testing

** You could/should balance the scale on the edge of table or counter at the same height/angle you will holding you rod to ensure accurate readings and prevent stress to your body while testing.

May want to clairfy with Doc..."is that 10lbs with one hand or both"?


Cheers - 5 Salt Fever.

[cosmo]

Jennie, your health is too important to mess with. Why not just devise a rod holder that operates at a comfortable angle and leave the rod in it during the fight. It's not perfect, but it will be safe. Just consider yourself as fishing under commercial troller rules.

[mandinga]

maybe you should take up trout fishing(gasp!)

[salmurai]

Jennie, Like Crabbait said, you need a harness. I've got a Smitty belt that puts all the pressure on your thighs and butt. Of course your rod should have a gimbal and your reel needs those eyes on top for the straps. You're welcome to use mine until August. Let me know.... Get well soon!

[Jennie@ifish]

I really appreciate all the ideas!
No, it isn't just for 6 weeks... It's for darn good. My aorta is still all busted up inside me and liable to burst.
That wouldn't be at all good. LOL.
Jen

[lilnorthfork]

Jennie - You are not taking into account the effects of the water in the equation. While conducting these tests, it is imperative that Bill is entirely underwater... probably at least 12 pulls under. lnf

[Boat Monkey]

Hmmm... Aorta, Springers... It's a tough decision but I would have to err toward the cautious and stick with the aorta. Maybe just supervising the event would be a better idea?

Take care of yourself

Dan~

[larryb]

both cabela's and boaters world sell a shoulder harness that could be made to work for you. your shoulders and back would take all the pressure and if you use a fighting pole holder around your waist your body would do the work. hope you find something that works

Jennie,
Throw this Question out to ALL the Major rod makers! It would benifit them as there is a user group out there that needs these answers. If they HAVE NOT done the homework on this, then it's time!!!!

9596

[ampersat]

It's really about keeping your blood pressure down and has little to do with how much weight you lift (non-medical opinion). How much excitement can you handle? What about uphill walking? I think you need more info from the physical therapist side of the house. Where there's a will, there's a way, and I know you've got the will!

[Ivana Fishalot]

Another thing to try is to use a lot shorter pole to lessen what an engineer calls a moment. A moment is twisting force. The force that is required to leverage a shorter pole up is much, much less.

Have Bill try this out.
Tie your braided line off to a ten pound rock.
Have Bill hold the rod against his belt just like he was fighting a fish but only hold tension on the line.
On the upper grip use a scale to measure the amount of applied force it takes to move the rock by pushing the rod up with a scale.

For clarification, the scale should apply the force in the same position that your hand would. Test different lengths. I guarantee you that a nice short pole will take much less effort to move that rock.

Now, someone has to volunteer to make Jen a four foot stand up rod that will flex down to two feet, which would essentially turn that lever into an effective 2 feet. I think that the ideal setting would be for someone to set the hook and loosen the drag then handoff to you. You could then fight the fish by letting it run when it wants to.

There are some other variables but the math works out to say that you could apply ten pounds of pressure, twenty inches from the end of the rod if it was in a harness. That would allow you to fight the fish with about 3.68 pounds of pressure. If you could figure out a way to shorten the length up to 4 feet, you could fight that fish with over 7 pounds of pressure.

Assumptions.
7'9" rod length bent to net an effective length of 6'2" (20% reduction in length)
A berkely IM7 rod that has an upper grip at 20".

Ampersat is correct when he said that static friction (not moving) is much greater than the force required to keep something moving. This is why I say you'll have to keep a very loose drag and thumb it when you can. If that fish turns to run, let him do so. the force required to turn him could push you over your limit.

Okay after that lengthy post, I know that I could figure it out to make sure that you wouldn't ever exceed that ten pounds. Now we need someone to make you that shorty rod. The shorter the better. Then after a few experiments you'd be fishing.

[WheresMyBobber]

Wow, knowing that the weight limit is for good puts a whole new light on things. You really need a long term solution or compromise that will help you safely get around this obstacle. I can't imagine how bummed I'd be if the Dr's told me what they've told you. There always seems to be a work-around to these types of obstacles with enough time and thought, and I do my best thinking while drifting off to sleep and while dreaming. I believe the human mind is capable of more than we give it credit for if we just give it a chance. If I was in your shoes I'd think about how to overcome this obstacle every night while drifting off to sleep -not as a problem that will keep you from sleeping, but rather as a puzzle to let your resting mind think about. We already know that you can reel in a fish while the rod is in a fish holder, so there's one answer, althoug it doesn't sound like much fun. I have a feeling a better solution will pop into someone's mind if we give it some time!

[fishchaser]

Jennie, Do you want to see you kids Graduate from high school? Do you want to see your kids get married? Do you want to grow old with your husband? Do you want to fish ever again? Than listen to your doctors, and take it easy til they say you are well enough to fish. You see if you listen to them, you will only miss this year. If you do something crazy, like try to fish, you may not be able to do the things I listed above. It could be your last fishing trip. Take it easy, there's always the next run, or the next season.

[rob allen]

this is somehting a lot of people don't understand.. If you are bending your rod and totally reefing on it you'll be extremely lucky to put 5 pounds of pressure on it.. Now you go and put 20lb mono on that same rod and start reefing and something's gonna break and it ain't gonna be the line!!! anyone ever try reeling in a 5 lb rock on their beefy chinook stick and 50 pound braid? try it I bet you break your rod..

ANyway Jennie I hope you'll be able to enjoy the springers

[Boat Monkey]

Hmm... So to test these theories maybe you should attach your line to a labrador of choice, throw stick and determine "pounds of pressure" that way?

Worst comes to worst, you can always use a light leader...

[FreetoFish]

Jennie, glad your thinking is right..fish...fish..
Go fishing, set your drag very loose and let the fish do the
work. Have a great day

[eyeFISH]

Jennie:

Remember the teetertotter. The problem lies in the fulcrum effect of the rod. If you have an 8-ft. rod lifting 10 pounds of weight (or that is your drag setting), then you have 80 ft. pounds of torquing force at your wrist. The shorter the rod, the less the felt weight, and vice versa. If the rod is one foot long, then a 10-pound weight feels like 10 pounds. If the rod is twenty feet long, then the weight feels like 200 pounds, etc.

If you want to fight heavier fish, choose a shorter rod.

Technically, Thumper has it right from the standpoint of pure physics. By that, it is presumed that the biceps is isolated, and the fulcrum is the elbow. If you are limited to lifting 10# in the palm of your hand, and the distance between your elbow and your palm is 15-16 inches (1.3 ft), then you are applying about 13 ft-lb of torque at the elbow when the upper arm is vertical and the forearm is held 90 degrees at the elbow.

To get an equivalent amount of torque with something pulling at the end of an 8.5 ft rod that does not flex (assuming the butt cap of the rod is right under the elbow), you will only need to apply about 1.5 lb. (8.5 x 1.5 = roughy 13).

Depending on the action of the rod, it's effective length as a lever may shorten considerably, perhaps down to only 6.5 ft. Now you could place 2 pounds of load at the tip to generate the same torque at the elbow (6.5 x 2 = 13).

This demonstrates why the fish has the upper hand during the fight, especially so with a longer rod. In this example, a fish pulling 2# worth on your line feels like 10# of pull in the hand.... a 5:1 advantage for Mr Springer. Even the heaviest meatsticks can have a tough time generating just 5# of effective force on a fish, even when you are pulling back with everything you've got.

So if you are fishing a typical 8.5 ft rod for springers, my advice to you Jennie would be to set your drag to slip at 2# as measured coming off the rod tip (not the reel). The drag set at 2# will prevent you from exerting yourself beyond that 10# limit your doctor specified.

[BUGLEMAN]

To increase your leverage on a fish for a set drag rate, fish a shorter rod.

[AuntyM]

Since this a "for life" situation, (and let's get real, Jennie loves to fish!) I think I would consider a fighting chair for the boat, maybe mount it on a low platform in front of the SJ cover? That should eliminate the majority of the stress and strain?