Synthetic vs Laminated does it matter?

[spinnerbob]

What difference does it make?

Does it effect accuracy???


Stainless, yes, but why necessarily synthetic?

Any info will help. Thanks.

[Catching Nemo]

Synthetic is not affected by the elements and can take a lot more abuse than laminate or wood. If wood or a laminate stock gets a scratch in it, moisture can get in and swell the stock and affect accuracy. It is also alot lighter than either wood or laminate. Biggest downside to synthetic's are they are pretty much ugly compared to a nice wood stock. Great tool but not much to look at in the eye candy department.

[brshooter]

I don't know kind of rifle you have or what type of shooting you do, but I would take a laminate over a cheap synthetic. Many of the inexpensive synthetics just don't have the rigidity needed for good accuracy and are tough to bed properly. Avoid Hogue and Ramline. B&C is marginal. I would start with maybe a H-S Precision. McMillan and Lee Six are tops.

[riverraider]

pretty much what others said. Good synthetics can look decent and be very consistant. Don't know about most of the factory synthetics, but a bought a Bell-Carlson from Cabelas for my .223. The groups went from 1/2" or less on the 700 bdl wood stock to over 2 1/2" with the drop-in synthetic. It maybe could have been fixed with professional bedding but I returned it instead.

[Armored Angler]

I have a laminated stock, it probably is not as impervious to the rigors of hunting but I liked the looks of it. Aesthetics vs. Performance

[SeanD]

A good synthetic is the best option IMO. But cheap synthetics are just plastic- molded injection. Junk. You cant really bed them and they dont have the rigidity of wood or a good synthetic. Good synthetics are expensive. ~$350 plus bedding. Laminates are better than wood, but they are heavier. Wood makes a fine stock if you keep it sealed. The problem is moisture changes make the stock swell and put different pressures on the action/barrel which changes your point of impact. If you seal the stock with epoxy it will be ok, but hardly anyone does. So a wood stock can be less accurate, but only if it isnt sealed. What affects accuracy in rifle stocks is stock rigidity and bedding, so if a wood stock is finished and bedded correctly it will be just as accurate as a good synthetic.

[Hunt'nFish]

SpinnerBob,
In practice, both are equally stable as far as moisture & the elements go. Personally I like Laminate for it's looks, in varmint rifles where weight is a good thing. Laminates are heavier than most synthetics, except for B&C & HS Precision.... they're even heavier.

Plastic stocks have their place; light weight & ulitarian but lack in looks. The flex in some of the cheaper plactic stocks can be a bad thing. But my favorite rifle is a Browning Stainless Stalker, w/ a plain jane plastic stock. Yes it has some forend flex, but I just open up the barrel channel a bit for more clearance. I'm willing to deal w/ it in favor of it's light weight. I have 3 Stainless Stalkers in .243, 7mmWSM, and .338Ultra love'em all! But my goto rifle for med sized game is an older Rem700 ADL Mt Rifle in .280Rem. This rifle has factory wood that has been repaired and painted black w/ a spackle job over that. I pilar bedded it, floated the barrel and adj the trigger for 2lbs and w/ my handloads it turns in sub moa. This is an example where wood can be made to shoot eqaully well as synth. It's bedded keep the action put, and the paint keeps it from absorbing moisture. It's a very plain looking rifle, but she shoots!

So pick your stock and have someone bed it right for you.
On my hunting rifles I stay away from heavy stocks.
Hope this give you something to think about,

Tracker

[Gundog]

What type of rifle are we talking about? Many factory rifles use a pressure point on the stock that acctually puts pressure on the barrel. If you free float one of these rifles you will acctually lose accuracy. Many Remington and Ruger rifles to name a few use these pressure points. If I were to change stocks I would change to a stress relieved custom barrel as well. A good bedding job and trigger with a quality stock and your talking. It is kind of like putting a push button Zebco reel on a G loomis rod.
Just my .02

I know you are talking about a rifle but here is a pistol I custom made for silhouette shooting. The stock I hand carved and the barrel is a custom Pac-Nor with a 2 ounce target trigger. The action is pilar bedded and barrel free floated. The one next to it is what it looked like from the factory. It is also converted to center grip it is a true one of a kind until I make another out of the stock one next to it.
Mike

[Hunt'nFish]

Spot on SeanD,
Yes I agree most plastic stocks ARE junk if dropped right in & used. That also goes for any stock that doesn't fit right as the fella above w/ the B&C testified to.

Plastic stocks have their drawbacks, flex. But they can be bedded. When bedding a plastic stock you have to create mech locks by drilling shallow holes at 45o angles to act as anchors. The bedding compounds don't like to stick to plastic very well. So mechanical anchoring is the method used to enhance adherance. Another plactic stock I like is the Butler Creek 10/22 & Mini-14 stocks. They have a nice pistol grip pommel that just feels right. A little bedding and they result in a good accurate stock w/o the weight.
But nothing beats a good laminate or HS stock for that heavy barrel varmint rifle!

Tracker

[duckdog310]

Get an HS Precision (skim bedded) or a McMillan (pillar bedded) and don't look back. Laminate is beautiful, but if you want a utilitarian stock that'll take the abuse, those two companies make the absolute best.

[SeanD]

Many factory rifles use a pressure point on the stock that acctually puts pressure on the barrel. If you free float one of these rifles you will acctually lose accuracy.

I dont agree with that. Some barrels like a pressure point up front, some dont. Factory or not. My factory rem barrel shoots great when I pillar bedded the action and free floated the barrel.

[TheKing]

Wood is hydroscopic and will always seek to stabilize at the Rh of its environment. Gluing it in a laminate stops the drastic movement you see in a single piece of wood. If you laminate it with fiberglass or Phenolic sheets between the wood it is even less likey to show movement. You can also soak the wood or vacumbag pressure treat it with phenolic resigns. I doubt anyone shooting hunting distances would ever notice the difference if their gun was glass or preferably pillar bedded. Now if you are shooting match or you are a US military sniper you would want the synthetic. Anyone beating their long rifle up enough in a hunting situation to need a synthetic stock cannot be all that worried about accuracy IMHO. I hunt off horse back and have 30 year old rifles that still look new. A major feat if you understand the destructive nature of the horse:-0

[Gundog]

SeanD,

Many factory rifles use a pressure point on the stock that acctually puts pressure on the barrel. If you free float one of these rifles you will acctually lose accuracy.

I have a very good friend who builds custom guns for a living this information is from him. I can put you in contact with him if you like.
Mike

[SeanD]

No thanks. If your friend believes that it is absolutley true that factory guns dont shoot as well free floated, I dont really want to hear what else he might say. No offense.

[weekender]

30 year old rifles that still look new.

I'd have to see that to beleive it. Its been my experience that the varnish wears off of them around the forearm and the handgrip even if you do take care of them.

[TheKing]

First thing you do is take the varnish off and oil the stock. I hate a shine on my rifles. Then its just a touch up oiling during the season with some oil on 000 steel wool. I also ride with the rifle slung over my shoulder. so you can shift it from side to side or drop the barrel going through brush.

[Gundog]

SeanD,
No offense taken what he actually said is that some factory guns with the pressure point in the stock do not shoot well after being free floated and bedded. It changes the harmonics on the barrel. The problem is after you free float it and it does not shoot well then what? Are you going to try and add a pressure point back in that would not be fun. I think that is why he discourages free floating a factory barrel.

One other point is how accurate is your rifle? That is subjective your idea of accuracy for a hunting rifle probably is not the same as a bench rest or high power competitive shooter. A factory rifle usually looses its accuracy after a small number of shots when the barrel starts to heat and lead foul. But when hunting how many times do you get 20 shots in a row (unless hunting varmits). This isn't a factor. I have been to the range when guys brag about there hunting rifles shooting sub MOA groups and when you look at there targets 1 in 10 groups were sub MOA. I am not putting you in that class it is just an observation.
Mike

[Catching Nemo]

No thanks. If your friend believes that it is absolutley true that factory guns dont shoot as well free floated, I dont really want to hear what else he might say. No offense.

Well you might not want to hear this then.

Free floating a barrel has the advantage of eliminating POI differences from climate changes and improperly sealed wood or whippy stocks. It also helps when a sling is being used which could put varying degrees of pressure on the stock which then transfers to the barrel. However, to say that free floating will always result in a more accurate rifle is false. It is way more complicated than that.

Some rifles do shoot better with a pressure pad/point than free floated. It is also true that some barrels shoot better when free floated. What matters is consistent barrel vibration from shot to shot. Unfortunately you can't always tell which is better for your rifle until you experiment. Lightweight barrels also tend to need more fore end pressure than HB's.

Many custom builders will free float but only to allow them to experiment with pressure pads in various locations along the barrel. Once they find the sweet spot, they will then create a permanent pressure point on the barrel. Since these are custom rifles with proper stocks, bedded actions, etc. - they do not need nor will they see any benefit from floating the barrel. Mass produced rifles, however, often will benefit from floating the barrel because of other QC issues which floating can make up for (but not always).

Browning came out with the BOSS to help the end user attenutate (sp) the barrel to different loads and to make up for any slop inherrent in a mass produced rifle. Almost does the same thing a proper stock, bedding and or free float/pressure point job would do - but just in a different manner.

Of course this is all academic when talking about minute of deer/elk at realistic distances and only really comes into play with target shooters. If your rifle shoots 2 MOA @ 200 yards or 1 or .5 MOA - does that really make much of a difference?

[Gundog]

Catching Nemo,
Well said.

[SeanD]

My post said:

Some barrels like a pressure point up front, some dont. Factory or not.

Well you might not want to hear this then.

Free floating a barrel has the advantage of eliminating POI differences from climate changes and improperly sealed wood or whippy stocks. It also helps when a sling is being used which could put varying degrees of pressure on the stock which then transfers to the barrel. However, to say that free floating will always result in a more accurate rifle is false. It is way more complicated than that.

I think you guys mis-understood me. I never said free floating a barrel always helps accuracy. Some barrels like a pressure point, some like to be full length bedded. Some like to be free floated. I think most barrels benefit from free floating.

Some rifles do shoot better with a pressure pad/point than free floated. It is also true that some barrels shoot better when free floated. What matters is consistent barrel vibration from shot to shot. Unfortunately you can't always tell which is better for your rifle until you experiment. Lightweight barrels also tend to need more fore end pressure than HB's.

Since these are custom rifles with proper stocks, bedded actions, etc. - they do not need nor will they see any benefit from floating the barrel.

I agree with most of that. But think about this- wood stocked rifles with a pressure point up front. The wood swells the pressure against the barrel changes. I also disagree that proper bedding and a stiff stock eliminates the need for free floating a barrel. Good bedding is super inportant (stress free action), but some rifles still like a stress free barrel.

Browning came out with the BOSS to help the end user attenutate (sp) the barrel to different loads and to make up for any slop inherrent in a mass produced rifle. Almost does the same thing a proper stock, bedding and or free float/pressure point job would do - but just in a different manner.

The boss sytem does nothing to eliminate stresses in the barrel or action. It just changes the harmonics of the barrel. The barrel vibrates as the bullet travels, the boss lets you tune the barrel vibration for accuracy. You can do the same thing by adjusting bullet seating depth. Totally different from bedding, stock fit, etc.

Of course this is all academic when talking about minute of deer/elk at realistic distances and only really comes into play with target shooters. If your rifle shoots 2 MOA @ 200 yards or 1 or .5 MOA - does that really make much of a difference?

I agree. Accuracy is overrated in a hunting rifle. But consistancy is nice. A 2" rifle rifle that hits the same 2" of target every time you take it out is way better than a rifle that groups 0.5" in a different places. 2MOA at 200 yards is the same as 2MOA at 100 yards. ~2" @100 and ~4" @400.

[Catching Nemo]

I think you guys mis-understood me. I never said free floating a barrel always helps accuracy. Some barrels like a pressure point, some like to be full length bedded. Some like to be free floated. I think most barrels benefit from free floating.

You are right on the misunderstanding and I bascially agree on the above statement.

I agree with most of that. But think about this- wood stocked rifles with a pressure point up front. The wood swells the pressure against the barrel changes. I also disagree that proper bedding and a stiff stock eliminates the need for free floating a barrel. Good bedding is super inportant (stress free action), but some rifles still like a stress free barrel.

I did say a properly sealed stock and I also said some prefer not to have pressure as well. Often you have to experiment to find which it is.

The boss sytem does nothing to eliminate stresses in the barrel or action. It just changes the harmonics of the barrel. The barrel vibrates as the bullet travels, the boss lets you tune the barrel vibration for accuracy. You can do the same thing by adjusting bullet seating depth. Totally different from bedding, stock fit, etc.

Never said it would alleviate stresses on the action (and a good bedded action is critical or the other items won't matter) but it does compensate for harmonic changes when outside stresses are placed on the barrel (not just bullet travel). The BOSS is marketed as a round tuner but it can also adjust for issues that might send a rifle to the smith.

I would argue the following: Let's say that you take a stock Browning with BOSS and can tune it to shoot 1 MOA at 200 yards (2 inches). Take the Boss off and you got 1.5 MOA @ 200 (3 inches). I believe you could then bed the action and either float or use a pressure pad to get the rifle to shoot again at 1 MOA @ 200 without the BOSS.

I agree. Accuracy is overrated in a hunting rifle. But consistancy is nice. A 2" rifle rifle that hits the same 2" of target every time you take it out is way better than a rifle that groups 0.5" in a different places. 2MOA at 200 yards is the same as 2MOA at 100 yards. ~2" @100 and ~4" @400.

I agree with consistency. My point was what is the difference if you can hit COM consistently within a 2 inch or 4 inch circle for hunting purposes.


2 MOA at 200 yards is 4 inches.
1 MOA at 200 is 2 inches.
.5 MOA at 200 is 1 inch.

1 MOA at 100 is 1 inch
.5 MOA at 100 is .5 inch

[SeanD]

[Big Stick]

I typically FL bed all contours to a #2 and sometimes even heavier,depending upon application.

As far as stocks go,a sound laminate can make a suitable handle,but a good synthetic(which means McMillan to me)will trump it in all avenues of practical application.

HS is junk,B&C is of a like ilk,MPI is junk,LoneWolf is junk,Bansners can be sound,as can Brown's and Rimrock makes very good stuff.

As to a 30yr old Walnut handle looking NIB,I'd say someone don't use it much.................

[SeanD]

Hey big stick, good to see you over here on Ifish. I was wondering if you were ever gonna wander away from the campfire for a while...