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Old 02-15-2014, 11:47 AM   #1
ron m
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Default 2014 Ocean SALMON season

In good years the ocean salmon season usually opens Mar 15, but the season setting process really gets going at the OSIG meeting which is on Feb 27 this year. It'll be in Newport. I've attended this meeting for about the last 7, maybe 8 years, and while it is a long meeting, it provides important background info for the limitations on our ocean salmon seasons. Obviously since I go every year I find it worthwhile and I hope some of you will also attend this year. If you do, find me and introduce yourself. I'm easy to find, I sit in the front row near the center.
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From the ODFW MRP website:
2014 PRE-SEASON PLANNING: OCEAN SALMON MEETING NOTICE: The 2014 Ocean Salmon Industry Group meeting (OSIG) is scheduled for Thursday, February 27, 2014. This pre-season planning meeting will provide an early look at the 2014 salmon forecasts, and develop Oregon preferred recreational and commercial ocean salmon fishing concepts to take forward through the Pacific Fishery Management Council (PFMC) regulation setting process. The OSIG meeting will be held in the downstairs meeting room at the Hallmark Resort, 744 SW Elizabeth Street, Newport.

The OSIG meeting is sponsored by the Oregon Coastal Zone Management Association and the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, and is open to all ocean sport fishing anglers and charter operators, commercial salmon troll fishers, and any others interested in participating in the development of ocean salmon fishery regulations for the 2014 ocean salmon seasons. Staff from ODFW will provide background materials and presentations and then work with meeting attendees to develop preferred season alternatives to take forward to the Pacific Fishery Management Council's season setting process. Doors open at 9:30 AM with the presentations scheduled to start at 10:00 AM and conclude by 3:30 PM. There will be a lunch break between 12:00 PM and 1:00 PM, with a no-host lunch available at the Hallmark. Links to the agenda and briefing materials for the meeting will be posted here as they come available in February.

OCZMA Announcement Letter and Call for Lunch Reservations
OSIG Agenda
The first of the two salmon season setting meetings by the Pacific Fishery Management Council (PFMC) will be held at the DoubleTree by Hilton, Sacramento, CA from March 7-13 (2001 Point West Way, Sacramento, CA). The meeting in Sacramento will establish a range of alternatives for further review. The final season setting meeting will occur at the Hilton Vancouver Washington from April 4-10 (301 W. Sixth Street, Vancouver, WA). More information on these meetings can be found at the PFMC's website.

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Old 02-15-2014, 01:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Given what is predicted for the Columbia fall chinook run (1.6 mill), it will be interesting to see what the Klamath and Sac predictions will be as they will drive a lot of Oregon ocean action. Hoping for another good return to those rivers as last year was certainly a dream year.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Just received this in an email from ODFW:

EARLY SEASON REMINDERS - February 20, 2014: The early 2014 ocean salmon seasons (prior to May 1) were set under the 2013 season setting process. These early seasons, including opening dates, may be modified by inseason action by NOAA Fisheries at the March Pacific Fishery Management Council meeting (March 8-13, 2014). At this point in time, the following seasons are scheduled for the period prior to May 1, 2014:

Recreational Ocean Salmon - Cape Falcon to Humbug Mountain: Open March 15 through April 30 for all salmon except Coho. All other regulations including length limits, bag limits, gear restrictions, and area restrictions from the 2013 ocean salmon regulations are in effect.

Commercial Ocean Troll Salmon - Cape Falcon to Oregon/California Border: Open March 15 through April 30 for all salmon except Coho. All other regulations including length limits, gear restrictions, and area restrictions from the 2013 ocean salmon regulations are in effect. Incidental Commercial Troll Pacific Halibut: Beginning April 1, during open salmon seasons, holders of an International Pacific Halibut Commission incidental halibut harvest license may land or possess no more than one Pacific Halibut per each three Chinook, except one Pacific Halibut may be possessed or landed without meeting the ratio requirement, and no more than 15 halibut may be possessed or landed per trip. Pacific Halibut retained must be no less than 32 inches in total length. All halibut must be caught while trolling for salmon.

Please visit www.dfw.state.or.us/MRP/salmon for more information.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Where would one find salmon between 3/15 and 4/30 anyway, assuming one could get out between weather events?
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by fishingprofessor View Post
Where would one find salmon between 3/15 and 4/30 anyway, assuming one could get out between weather events?
1. One finds them where the conditions are best.....good upwelling (as seen on chlorophyll charts) and water temp (50 - 55 deg in Spring).

2. In the absence of #1, early season fish are often found in the deep water, down near the bottom.... 50 - 70 fathoms on the edges, or outside of the big seamounts (i.e. Heceta Banks, Perpetua Bank, Bandon high spot, Astoria Canyon, etc).

Last spring was unusual in that there was good upwelling in close off Newport....only 25 - 35 fathoms. And the fish were there
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Late March last year we were getting Chinook incidentally while bottom fishing so early April I started targeting them. They were there, we stayed on fish from April to October. It would be sweet if this year stays the same!
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by bobber down adv View Post
Late March last year we were getting Chinook incidentally while bottom fishing so early April I started targeting them. They were there, we stayed on fish from April to October. It would be sweet if this year stays the same!
Fingers crossed this year pans out about the same way....
We had a blast fishing for them last year the few times we targeted them.....
I can only imagine how good of a fishery Steve had targeting them specifically...
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Fingers crossed this year pans out about the same way....
We had a blast fishing for them last year the few times we targeted them.....
I can only imagine how good of a fishery Steve had targeting them specifically...
I was spending half days on Chinook then bottom fish the other half. 2 skunk trips April to July on the salmon, rest of the trips we landed 1-5 salmon. July on...... let's just say it was on fire, double digit days became the norm
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Old 02-23-2014, 03:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

OSIG is this coming Thursday in Newport. If the salmon season is important to you, then it's worth your time to give input at the beginning of the salmon setting process.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobber down adv View Post
Late March last year we were getting Chinook incidentally while bottom fishing so early April I started targeting them. They were there, we stayed on fish from April to October. It would be sweet if this year stays the same!
Was bottom fishing out of Brookings today, had 1 king take a shrimp fly and saw 3 others in the water..... just offshore 70' water....... hope this is an indicator of a season like last year....
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by jacksalmon View Post
Given what is predicted for the Columbia fall chinook run (1.6 mill), it will be interesting to see what the Klamath and Sac predictions will be as they will drive a lot of Oregon ocean action. Hoping for another good return to those rivers as last year was certainly a dream year.
Unless they get a bunch of rain,and it's getting really late for that it could be a disaster. Fish need water and things are not looking good for having enough cold water for those fish. I sure hope I'm wrong but having spent the bulk of my life fishing those waters,I'm concerned...
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:26 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Unless they get a bunch of rain,and it's getting really late for that it could be a disaster. Fish need water and things are not looking good for having enough cold water for those fish. I sure hope I'm wrong but having spent the bulk of my life fishing those waters,I'm concerned...
I was born and raised in Northern Calif, my dad was a commercial fisherman. Cut my yeeth catching salmon out of Humboldt Bay.
This low water situation in Calif is serious. The Klamath River shouldn't be in too bad of shape but the Sacramento is going to be in trouble. Three years from now is most likely when we will see the biggest effect. As you all know the returns predicted in the Sacramento have a direct effect on the quota we are allowed to take here in Oregon. Pray for Rain in Nothern Calif.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

The back door of our "duck club" in Colusa was next to the levy, I river fished some "low water" years back then...but the lack of water this year is unprecedented,really scary. If Vulpinus sees this I would like to see his evaluation.
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Last edited by Bay City Buck; 02-24-2014 at 08:28 AM. Reason: addition/ spelling
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:27 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Quote:
Originally Posted by ron m View Post
OSIG is this coming Thursday in Newport. If the salmon season is important to you, then it's worth your time to give input at the beginning of the salmon setting process.
ron m
I won't be able to skip work for the meeting but let us know how it goes.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

I looked around for Sacramento and Klamath Chinook forecasts but only found this article.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...cles/120229596

Staff from PFMC and Cal F & G were optimistic about ocean fishery off California and Oregon although the article did not have forecasts. They seemed to dismiss the fact they badly over predicted the Sacramento last year.

Along with the strong Columbia River coho and Chinook forecasts, it could be a good overall ocean salmon year.
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Love the anticipation as we enter spring. Here's hoping all predictions pan-out!

http://www.columbian.com/news/2014/f...columbia-2014/
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by fair hooker View Post
I looked around for Sacramento and Klamath Chinook forecasts but only found this article.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...cles/120229596

Staff from PFMC and Cal F & G were optimistic about ocean fishery off California and Oregon although the article did not have forecasts. They seemed to dismiss the fact they badly over predicted the Sacramento last year.

Along with the strong Columbia River coho and Chinook forecasts, it could be a good overall ocean salmon year.

Oops. I screwed up.

The date on the article is 2012. I have no idea what the prediction is for 2014. They should present that at the OSIG meeting in a couple days.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by Bay City Buck View Post
Unless they get a bunch of rain,and it's getting really late for that it could be a disaster. Fish need water and things are not looking good for having enough cold water for those fish. I sure hope I'm wrong but having spent the bulk of my life fishing those waters,I'm concerned...
You are right to be concerned, but that disaster will affect the returns to those rivers 3 years from now. This year's crop is already out in the ocean, but as an article above said, they grossly overestimated the number of salmon returning to the Sac last year. They should be a lot more conservative in their estimates this year with all that egg over their collective faces.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:00 AM   #19
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

The information packets for the Ocean Salmon Industry Group meeting are now available on the ODFW's Ocean Salmon Management Program website at www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmon
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:52 AM   #20
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The information packets for the Ocean Salmon Industry Group meeting are now available on the ODFW's Ocean Salmon Management Program website at www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmon
Wow, that changed my misconceptions about where and by who the salmon are being caught. Us sport guys out of the mid-coast aren't finding the Chinooks but the commercials are. Is this because of an obsession with Tuna?
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:14 AM   #21
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Wow, that changed my misconceptions about where and by who the salmon are being caught. Us sport guys out of the mid-coast aren't finding the Chinooks but the commercials are. Is this because of an obsession with Tuna?
Very few sport boats target central coast Chinook. Its the most underutilized fishery in OR. For months last year the fish checkers told me I was the only boat targeting them. I know Ron M does and a handful of others do but they just aren't fished for much
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:02 PM   #22
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Lunchtime report from the meeting:

We had a summary of last season effort and catch and then got the estimates for 2014 salmon abundance this morning. Looks like it mostly should be as good or better than last year.

After lunch we get to make our suggestions for the salmon seasons this year. My suggestion/request for the central OR coast will be a structure similar to last year. Chinook from Mar 15 thru Oct 31, 24 in min, 2/day. Coho in July (fin clipped only), 2/day and then in Sept a non-selective season. They will probably want to restrict the days per week, but hopefully if the quota is not being caught, open up to more days per week for the rest of the month.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:11 PM   #23
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Thanks Ron
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Ron,
you are the bearer of good news....
As I mentioned earlier we only targeted them on a very small number of days but it was a blast last year. Heck we even caught them on bottom fishing gear the last weekend it was open....

Hope this season is as good as last....
See you all down at the SSS in a week or so...
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ron m View Post
Lunchtime report from the meeting:

We had a summary of last season effort and catch and then got the estimates for 2014 salmon abundance this morning. Looks like it mostly should be as good or better than last year.

After lunch we get to make our suggestions for the salmon seasons this year. My suggestion/request for the central OR coast will be a structure similar to last year. Chinook from Mar 15 thru Oct 31, 24 in min, 2/day. Coho in July (fin clipped only), 2/day and then in Sept a non-selective season. They will probably want to restrict the days per week, but hopefully if the quota is not being caught, open up to more days per week for the rest of the month.
ron m
That sounds about right, thanks Ron. I would think we would get a little more of a season on the coho with the Columbia forecast pushing 1 million, triple last years forecast.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

The sports folks in attendance agreed that the priorities for the central coast are :
for chinook, Mar 15 thru Oct 31, 2 per day.

For coho. order of priorities, summer coho (maybe sometime in June till end of July), then Sept non-selective oho, then August coho if the numbers of available fish is high enough.

The reason to not have the Aug coho is the impact rate (on wild fish) is so high in August. Note here they the expected mark rate this year is higher than the rate last year which ended up being less than the forecasted impact rate.

And since I know it will be a topic, the reason to not have coho be the first two is that if wild fish are kept, then it's guaranteed that fish dies. The studies show that about 15% of the released fish die whereas if the fish is kept, then 100% of the kept fish die. If we keep the first two fish caught, then many of the fish we keep will be unmarked fish and many of the clipped fish will still be out there and not harvested. Plus since the impact rate on unclipped fish would be 100%, the quota would be ONLY ABOUT 30% AS MUCH and the season would be very short and we would still kill as many non-clipped fish and way less clipped fish.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ron m View Post
The sports folks in attendance agreed that the priorities for the central coast are :
for chinook, Mar 15 thru Oct 31, 2 per day.

For coho. order of priorities, summer coho (maybe sometime in June till end of July), then Sept non-selective oho, then August coho if the numbers of available fish is high enough.

The reason to not have the Aug coho is the impact rate (on wild fish) is so high in August. Note here they the expected mark rate this year is higher than the rate last year which ended up being less than the forecasted impact rate.

And since I know it will be a topic, the reason to not have coho be the first two is that if wild fish are kept, then it's guaranteed that fish dies. The studies show that about 15% of the released fish die whereas if the fish is kept, then 100% of the kept fish die. If we keep the first two fish caught, then many of the fish we keep will be unmarked fish and many of the clipped fish will still be out there and not harvested. Plus since the impact rate on unclipped fish would be 100%, the quota would be ONLY ABOUT 30% AS MUCH and the season would be very short and we would still kill as many non-clipped fish and way less clipped fish.
ron m
Ron,
Thanks for attending, updating us and for the details on selective season considerations.
Ed
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:14 PM   #28
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Setting the sport seasons is easy compared to setting the commercial seasons. Since the commercial guys fish other fisheries too, they don't agree nearly as much as us sports on what the seasons should be. Plus their Sept and Oct fish are credit card fish (meaning what is caught this year can drastically affect what they get as a season the next year), they take a risk in catching fish in Sept and Oct. Theirs is not a simple process.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:41 PM   #29
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Many Thanks Ron, for representing us on the sports fishing side year after year.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:10 PM   #30
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Thanks Ron!





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Old 02-27-2014, 03:49 PM   #31
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Nice seeing you there Ron. I absorbed a lot and have a lot to learn yet.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:58 PM   #32
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This was the first phase of the salmon season setting process. For this phase it was helpful to have lots of sports guys there, unfortunately only a few of us spoke up, but for this part it's ok as the most important thing is to get the options for ODFW and PFMC. The next phase will be after the options (there will be 3) are developed at the PFMC meeting in early March. It's really important for all interested anglers to give their input then instead of just the outspoken few. We won't have to pick just from the options, we can ask they mix and match between the options, though I think it'll be likely there will be an option most of us like.

There was a good showing today for us sports: Grant, DLC (Charlie), Walter, Mitch, Chuck, and some charter operators. Thats all I can remember right now, sorry if I omitted anyone I talked with at the meeting.

My guess is that we'll get a season (central coast) much like last year. Chinook will probably be exactly the same as last year ! Might have a slightly higher coho quota and maybe a little longer early season. But again, that is just my guess based on the info presented today and from conversations today.

I've been attending the OSIG meetings for about 8 years now and until this year Steve Williams conducted the meetings. Chris Kern conducted the meeting this year and did a fine job. Eric Schindler and and Craig Foster were the other ODFW staff that presented info and answered questions. All 3 of them seem to be very well informed and knowledgeable. And at least 2 of the ODFW reps to the PFMC were there to hear what folks said, their concerns, and what they want for the coming season. I am impressed with the representation to the council from ODFW, the sport reps, and the commercial reps. Setting the seasons is not a simple process!
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:34 PM   #33
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I am with you 110% on the not killing the first 2 fish Ron. The googans who say they would kill fewer fish need to learn how to release fish. My boat released somewhere around 250 unclipped coho last summer with zero floaters and mabey 2 bleeders. If the impact would drop from 15% to less than 5% we would be able to keep hatchery fish in June when there is this surplus of them. That rant over, I'm jacked up for the Chinook opener the 15th. I know right where a bunch have been feeding for the last month or so
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:43 PM   #34
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I am with you 110% on the not killing the first 2 fish Ron. The googans who say they would kill fewer fish need to learn how to release fish. My boat released somewhere around 250 unclipped coho last summer with zero floaters and mabey 2 bleeders. If the impact would drop from 15% to less than 5% we would be able to keep hatchery fish in June when there is this surplus of them. That rant over, I'm jacked up for the Chinook opener the 15th. I know right where a bunch have been feeding for the last month or so
Yeah, on my boat there is a boat rule that when fishing for coho when we have to release unclipped fish, ONLY 1 hook may be used, makes releasing coho much easier. With two hooks, by the time the fish are to the boat, both hooks are in the fish and releasing them unharmed is much more difficult.

"I know right where a bunch have been feeding for the last month or so"
wanna share that info?

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Old 02-27-2014, 08:43 PM   #35
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Yeah, on my boat there is a boat rule that when fishing for coho when we have to release unclipped fish, ONLY 1 hook may be used, makes releasing coho much easier. With two hooks, by the time the fish are to the boat, both hooks are in the fish and releasing them unharmed is much more difficult.

"I know right where a bunch have been feeding for the last month or so"
wanna share that info?

ron m
Single hook super baits and wiggle hootchies and never putting a high finner in the net its pretty easy to pop that hook out. Pm sent on the chinook
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Old 03-01-2014, 01:23 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bobber down adv View Post
I am with you 110% on the not killing the first 2 fish Ron. The googans who say they would kill fewer fish need to learn how to release fish. My boat released somewhere around 250 unclipped coho last summer with zero floaters and mabey 2 bleeders. If the impact would drop from 15% to less than 5% we would be able to keep hatchery fish in June when there is this surplus of them. That rant over, I'm jacked up for the Chinook opener the 15th. I know right where a bunch have been feeding for the last month or so
Well we cant all be experts like you,just googans,maybe you should offer lessons and we can save all the fish,so did you track all of those nates you released so you can honestly say they never floated or is that just your assumption.its not the ten percent that are doing bad release programs its the 90 so i think the first two rule makes sense.we released well 0ver 250 fish last year and they all swam away but i cant tell you honestly if any floated later.
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Old 03-01-2014, 03:09 PM   #37
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by BCFISHON1 View Post
Well we cant all be experts like you,just googans,maybe you should offer lessons and we can save all the fish,so did you track all of those nates you released so you can honestly say they never floated or is that just your assumption.its not the ten percent that are doing bad release programs its the 90 so i think the first two rule makes sense.we released well 0ver 250 fish last year and they all swam away but i cant tell you honestly if any floated later.
I knew that was coming! so those hundreds of thousands of hatchery coho headed back to hatcheries that kill and toss the surplus shouldn't be fished for? If we keep the first 2 the season closes in 10 days or so and the rest of the hatchery fish go to waste, literally. Carefully release the high finners and continue to harvest hatchery fish just seems like common sense to me.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

The discussion of keeping the first two coho comes up every year.

We are allowed a certain number of non-clipped fish we can kill. Eric tells me that PFMC and ODFW use a mortality rate of 15% for released fish. If that percentage is correct or not is another discussion, 15% is the number they use.

OK, say that quota of unclipped coho we are allowed is 1500. That means when we've killed 1500 unclipped coho we have to quit fishing. While the ratio varies ever year, for simplicity lets say that there are about the same number of clipped as unclipped fish, so since half of the fish are clipped, the mark rate is 50%.(the mark rate is the percent of fish that are clipped)

Now, consider if we keep the first two and done. Then we (collectively we, aka all of us sporties) will be done when we catch 1500 unclipped fish and we'll have caught about 1500 clipped fish, so our season lasts long enough for us to catch 3000 fish total, 1500 clipped and 1500 unclipped. And lots of the quota of hatchery coho will still be out there uncaught, but our season will be closed because we've reached our quota of unclipped fish.

Now consider if we release unclipped fish and only keep clipped fish. Then our season will be over when we've caught 10,000 unclipped fish and we'll also have caught about 10,000 clipped fish.

So we'll have caught about 20,000 fish total, about 10,000 clipped fish we kept and about 10,000 unclipped fish that we've released - of which about 1,500 of those unclipped fish died.

In either scenario we'll have killed about 1,500 unclipped fish. But in the keep the "first 2 and done" scenario, we'll have caught and kept only about 3000 fish. In the keep only clipped fish scenario, we'll have caught about 20,000 fish total and kept 10,000 clipped fish.

Now we all know the season will last much longer if we're allowed to catch 20,000 fish than if we're allowed to catch only 3000 fish. Plus in the keep only clipped fish scenario we've kept 10,00 hatchery fish instead of just 1500 hatchery fish in the keep the first 2 scenario.

I know which of these two scenarios I prefer, but the most important thing is that in either scenario we've killed about 1500 unclipped fish. In the first, we also kept about 1500 hatchery fish and in the second we'll have kept 10,000 hatchery fish.

The 15% is the number used by PFMC and ODFW every year, but the ratio of clipped to unclipped fish in the population changes every year. Rarely are the numbers of each about the same.

One of the reasons for the only clipped season being in July is that the mark rate goes down at each port on the coast as the season progresses since the majority of the clipped fish return to the CR or farther north(in general the clipped fish are moving north more than the unclipped fish, they may also tend to be more of the early fish we see). Also for the same reason, in general, the more south one fishes along the OR coast, the lower the mark rate. Or to say it going north, the farther north the port, the higher the mark rate.

Go here (about the 6th page)
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/MRP/salmo..._Schindler.pdf
to see info on the mark rates by month for each port last year and what is projected for this year.

That means that in general, fishing out of the southern ports means ya gotta catch more fish to get your two unclipped fish than folks fishing out of the northern ports.

After attending OSIG for about 8 years and asking about it many times, I think I have some, maybe a fair, understanding of this now, but I'm still learning. I know enough to know it is NOT simple. None of us like killing coho (or any fish) we can't keep, but please learn the details and ramifications before you let your emotions decide which of the 2 scenarios and hence which of the two choices for seasons you want.

Not wanting to see any coho released by folks on my boat die is why I have the one hook rule for coho on my boat. It's also why we occasionally lose a clipped fish because we're waiting to net until AFTER we are CERTAIN it is a clipped fish. Coho are very active and not very cooperative in letting us see if their adipose fin has been clipped!
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Old 03-01-2014, 07:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Thanks Ron for all the great info..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ron m View Post
The discussion of keeping the first two coho comes up every year.

We are allowed a certain number of non-clipped fish we can kill. Eric tells me that PFMC and ODFW use a mortality rate of 15% for released fish. If that percentage is correct or not is another discussion, 15% is the number they use.

OK, say that quota of unclipped coho we are allowed is 1500. That means when we've killed 1500 unclipped coho we have to quit fishing. While the ratio varies ever year, for simplicity lets say that there are about the same number of clipped as unclipped fish, so since half of the fish are clipped, the mark rate is 50%.(the mark rate is the percent of fish that are clipped)

Now, consider if we keep the first two and done. Then we (collectively we, aka all of us sporties) will be done when we catch 1500 unclipped fish and we'll have caught about 1500 clipped fish, so our season lasts long enough for us to catch 3000 fish total, 1500 clipped and 1500 unclipped. And lots of the quota of hatchery coho will still be out there uncaught, but our season will be closed because we've reached our quota of unclipped fish.

Now consider if we release unclipped fish and only keep clipped fish. Then our season will be over when we've caught 10,000 unclipped fish and we'll also have caught about 10,000 clipped fish.

So we'll have caught about 20,000 fish total, about 10,000 clipped fish we kept and about 10,000 unclipped fish that we've released - of which about 1,500 of those unclipped fish died.

In either scenario we'll have killed about 1,500 unclipped fish. But in the keep the "first 2 and done" scenario, we'll have caught and kept only about 3000 fish. In the keep only clipped fish scenario, we'll have caught about 20,000 fish total and kept 10,000 clipped fish.

Now we all know the season will last much longer if we're allowed to catch 20,000 fish than if we're allowed to catch only 3000 fish. Plus in the keep only clipped fish scenario we've kept 10,00 hatchery fish instead of just 1500 hatchery fish in the keep the first 2 scenario.

I know which of these two scenarios I prefer, but the most important thing is that in either scenario we've killed about 1500 unclipped fish. In the first, we also kept about 1500 hatchery fish and in the second we'll have kept 10,000 hatchery fish.

The 15% is the number used by PFMC and ODFW every year, but the ratio of clipped to unclipped fish in the population changes every year. Rarely are the numbers of each about the same.

One of the reasons for the only clipped season being in July is that the mark rate goes down at each port on the coast as the season progresses since the majority of the clipped fish return to the CR or farther north(in general the clipped fish are moving north more than the unclipped fish, they may also tend to be more of the early fish we see). Also for the same reason, in general, the more south one fishes along the OR coast, the lower the mark rate. Or to say it going north, the farther north the port, the higher the mark rate.

Go here (about the 6th page)
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/MRP/salmo..._Schindler.pdf
to see info on the mark rates by month for each port last year and what is projected for this year.

That means that in general, fishing out of the southern ports means ya gotta catch more fish to get your two unclipped fish than folks fishing out of the northern ports.

After attending OSIG for about 8 years and asking about it many times, I think I have some, maybe a fair, understanding of this now, but I'm still learning. I know enough to know it is NOT simple. None of us like killing coho (or any fish) we can't keep, but please learn the details and ramifications before you let your emotions decide which of the 2 scenarios and hence which of the two choices for seasons you want.

Not wanting to see any coho released by folks on my boat die is why I have the one hook rule for coho on my boat. It's also why we occasionally lose a clipped fish because we're waiting to net until AFTER we are CERTAIN it is a clipped fish. Coho are very active and not very cooperative in letting us see if their adipose fin has been clipped!
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Old 03-01-2014, 07:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Great explanation, Ron. Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to educate your fellow fisherpersons.
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Old 03-01-2014, 08:20 PM   #41
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Thank you Ron for putting more details down on explaining exactly what I was saying
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:05 AM   #42
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Thanks, Ron!
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:19 AM   #43
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Makes sense when explained and i should have probably read more before i jumped on the first two boat, i think its the googan bashing or the IF PEOPLE JUST NEW HOW TO FISH CORRECTLY statement that got me,sorry folks my bad
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:32 AM   #44
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by ron m View Post
It's also why we occasionally lose a clipped fish because we're waiting to net until AFTER we are CERTAIN it is a clipped fish. Coho are very active and not very cooperative in letting us see if their adipose fin has been clipped!
ron m
On grey overcast days it can be extremely difficult to identify clipped vs unclipped fish when Coho are doing their barrel roles near the boat. That process has made for some memorable fishing trips on my boat!

Great post Ron, well said.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:54 AM   #45
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Since there is a discussion about mortality, and trying to ID the fin, and Ron has mentioned the single hook........

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobber down adv View Post
Single hook super baits and wiggle hootchies and never putting a high finner in the net its pretty easy to pop that hook out.
As bobber down sez......

I'll add that it really improves the whole situation if one uses a single, large-bend (commercial style) hook rather than the octopus style siwash.

With the larger gap, you typically get more meat of the jaw on the hookup. You can land the fish faster, and pull them right up to the boat, and lift them by the leader. And with the large bend, you can use a shaker hook much more effectively than the small gap hooks.

Please, at least try these out once. I'll bring some free samples to the SSS on the 8th.....just ask.

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Old 03-02-2014, 04:09 PM   #46
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by Mark Mc View Post
Since there is a discussion about mortality, and trying to ID the fin, and Ron has mentioned the single hook........



As bobber down sez......

I'll add that it really improves the whole situation if one uses a single, large-bend (commercial style) hook rather than the octopus style siwash.

With the larger gap, you typically get more meat of the jaw on the hookup. You can land the fish faster, and pull them right up to the boat, and lift them by the leader. And with the large bend, you can use a shaker hook much more effectively than the small gap hooks.

Please, at least try these out once. I'll bring some free samples to the SSS on the 8th.....just ask.


It looks like a siwash hook, used commonly to replace trebles on lures and plugs.
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Old 03-02-2014, 04:10 PM   #47
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When are the forecasts for the Klamath and Sacramento due out?
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Old 03-02-2014, 04:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by BCFISHON1 View Post
Makes sense when explained and i should have probably read more before i jumped on the first two boat, i think its the googan bashing or the IF PEOPLE JUST NEW HOW TO FISH CORRECTLY statement that got me,sorry folks my bad
I reread the thread twice and nowhere did anyone say "If people knew how to fish correctly" I am not bashing anyone here. I do get frustrated with people always wanting to kill their first 2 ocean fish but never complain about releasing wild steelhead to get to a hatchery fish. Every year I hear the same thing on the docks, "we killed 10 wilds to get our 4 clipped" I try to keep quiet and just nod but that crap shouldn't happen
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Old 03-02-2014, 09:44 PM   #49
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by jacksalmon View Post
When are the forecasts for the Klamath and Sacramento due out?

All of the meeting materials are in the link Chumking put up prior to the meeting;

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmon/
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:20 AM   #50
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Sacramento river forcast is 634,000. Between there and the Columbia, there will be alot of fish( not counting Kalamath,Umpqua, and others) . Can u say MILLIONS?
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:52 PM   #51
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Very good take down to hook rate, few long line releases and easy to release fish. You can often slide your finger down the line grab the hook and dump the fish without it ever touching a net.....Thanks, MarkMc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Mc View Post
Since there is a discussion about mortality, and trying to ID the fin, and Ron has mentioned the single hook........



As bobber down sez......

I'll add that it really improves the whole situation if one uses a single, large-bend (commercial style) hook rather than the octopus style siwash.

With the larger gap, you typically get more meat of the jaw on the hookup. You can land the fish faster, and pull them right up to the boat, and lift them by the leader. And with the large bend, you can use a shaker hook much more effectively than the small gap hooks.

Please, at least try these out once. I'll bring some free samples to the SSS on the 8th.....just ask.
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Old 03-03-2014, 06:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

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Originally Posted by fishwhenican View Post
Very good take down to hook rate, few long line releases and easy to release fish. You can often slide your finger down the line grab the hook and dump the fish without it ever touching a net.....Thanks, MarkMc
The de-hooker that we give out at the SSS is a great tool for easy release
Stop by the booth for a free de-hooker and a demo on how they work
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:08 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Salty Walty View Post
All of the meeting materials are in the link Chumking put up prior to the meeting;

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmon/
OK, I give up and admit I am an idiot. Where in the link that you sent me does it indicate what are the forecasts for the Klamath and Sacramento? I see it describes when the meetings will take place, but I saw nothing about the specific forecasts. Thanks for any help.
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by On the Line View Post
Sacramento river forcast is 634,000. Between there and the Columbia, there will be alot of fish( not counting Kalamath,Umpqua, and others) . Can u say MILLIONS?
Where did you find the Sac forecast for 2014? Any for the Klamath?
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:15 AM   #55
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Where did you find the Sac forecast for 2014? Any for the Klamath?
Never mind my questions about the Klamath and Sac. I found this article which gives the answers and more:

http://www.willitsnews.com/sports/ci...bers-downswing


Looks like fewer Sac and K fish swimming around in the ocean this year.
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Old 03-04-2014, 09:06 AM   #56
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

The link Salty Walty put up
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmon/
takes you to the salmon page on the MRP site. Ya gotta do some looking from there, go down the page to the 2014 Preseason Meeting Notice, then click on
OSIG Escapement and Forecast Slideshow including supplemental slides
which will take you to
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmo...sts_Foster.pdf

go down to about p 13, look at it, but don't stop there, more info on the Klamath and Sac R follow. There is also info on returns for most (or all, depending on where you look) OR and WA rivers.

If you want even more info, I think the PFMC Briefing documents usually have more detailed data.

In a week or 10 days or so, I hope to be putting up a post on the second step of the season setting process with the 3 alternatives developed at (or for) the PFMC meeting. I think that doc usually also has data on projected returns in it or at least that info will be in associated documents.

Even though I've looked at this stuff for years now, sometimes it's still difficult to find the info I want. But I have also learned who to ask for help finding it.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:31 AM   #57
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

I went to the WDFW meeting on monday and learned quite a bit. Lots of handouts. More projections than I know what to do with.

In the Ocean/Columbia river committee, I just sat back and listened. They were working on numbers of possible impacts and trying to put together three options of harvest levels. Both for Coho and Chinook. The coho options, are going to be driven by our own impacts on Thompson river fish. That is to be maintained at 10% or less and not easy.
The Chinook fishery is going to be driven by again, the lower river Tules. Even though there a lot of them this season and it looks like total impact can be as high as 41% it is still the main driver.

The big piece of the puzzle will be the impacts of SE Alaska and especially the west Vancouver island fisheries. The were expecting to have that info for the Sacramento meeting.

Most of you already know all this stuff. I was there to learn. What stands out is all of the fishing regions or areas, have to base their fisheries on impacts to depressed stocks. Not just us here on the CR.

So our seasons and limits will depend a lot on what happened in Alaska and BC. Regardless of what options we end up with, I am looking forward to another great season on the CR.

The ocean/CR comittee was pretty much dominated by members of the Westport Charter association. They do have their stuff together. You would expect that since it is their livelihood.

Would recommend any of these meetings as a way to see and learn how our seasons are determined. It is not as easy as it sounds.
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:41 PM   #58
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Pijon, thanks for the report. Obviously they didn't have the estimated impacts from the Alaskan or Canadian fleets at the Newport OSIG meetings either, but I was encouraged to hear that their % of impact would be lower this year and in ensuing years, that helps us and the fish.

The LC tules have been one of the limiting factors for both WA and OR since I've been attending these meetings. I think the WA waters have some different stocks to fish than we have in OR.

Most of the chinook we catch south of Cape Falcon, I think it was 80% last year for the commercials, are from the Klamath and Sac R stocks. I think the bulk of both of those stocks mostly stays south of the CR.

Isn't it interesting that the more you learn about setting salmon seasons the more complicated it seems!?
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:26 PM   #59
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Default Re: 2014 Ocean SALMON season

Quote:
Originally Posted by ron m View Post
Pijon, thanks for the report. Obviously they didn't have the estimated impacts from the Alaskan or Canadian fleets at the Newport OSIG meetings either, but I was encouraged to hear that their % of impact would be lower this year and in ensuing years, that helps us and the fish.

The LC tules have been one of the limiting factors for both WA and OR since I've been attending these meetings. I think the WA waters have some different stocks to fish than we have in OR.

Most of the chinook we catch south of Cape Falcon, I think it was 80% last year for the commercials, are from the Klamath and Sac R stocks. I think the bulk of both of those stocks mostly stays south of the CR.

Isn't it interesting that the more you learn about setting salmon seasons the more complicated it seems!?
ron m
Exactly, there was nothing simple or cut and dried about any of it. There was a single mention by one of the charter guys about a non selective fishery but I wouldn't count on it with what I learned about the process. They couldn't even discuss it as important info was not available.

I read your post and the math and I think we would all be happier with a longer season.
And just a few days ago I was sure 2 and done was a good way to go. At this point, I don't think it matters much to me. I will support whatever they come up with.
I think its a great shot in the arm for the small towns along the coast.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:00 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron m View Post
The link Salty Walty put up
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmon/
takes you to the salmon page on the MRP site. Ya gotta do some looking from there, go down the page to the 2014 Preseason Meeting Notice, then click on
OSIG Escapement and Forecast Slideshow including supplemental slides
which will take you to
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/mrp/salmo...sts_Foster.pdf

go down to about p 13, look at it, but don't stop there, more info on the Klamath and Sac R follow. There is also info on returns for most (or all, depending on where you look) OR and WA rivers.

If you want even more info, I think the PFMC Briefing documents usually have more detailed data.

In a week or 10 days or so, I hope to be putting up a post on the second step of the season setting process with the 3 alternatives developed at (or for) the PFMC meeting. I think that doc usually also has data on projected returns in it or at least that info will be in associated documents.

Even though I've looked at this stuff for years now, sometimes it's still difficult to find the info I want. But I have also learned who to ask for help finding it.
ron m
Thanks, Ron, I was able to dig through a lot of that material and get some answers. I would still like to find some assessments of the number of spawners in Oregon coastal streams, altho the PFC materials may not include that info.
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