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Old 06-18-2013, 09:34 AM   #1
5-Cents
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Exclamation NFS is blinking...

Have you written an email to the businesses that support the NFS to let them know your feelings on the NFS agenda to close hatcheries and stop the harvest of salmon and steelhead? I have, and today I recieved the following post on my Facebook page...
Rob Miles I think my friend Tom Derry at NFS said it best, thanks for your input Shane:

Hi Rob,

I thought about your email most of the night and feel bad you are taking some heat for supporting wild fish conservation. We had a similar situation on the Metolius when my wife and I owned the Kokanee Cafe. We were the only business in the area that supported discontinuing the hatchery program on the Metolius. Other businesses boycotted us,some lodging folks sent their customers elsewhere for dinner, but we knew we were right. The stocking stopped and guess what, every business in the area enjoyed a record year and this trend continues until this day! The Metolius became a world class fishery with a self sustaining population of all wild fish. We are not trying to stop hatchery programs on the Deschutes but we are involved in trying to stop some on the Sandy. We really value our relationship with you and all the wonderful things you have done for wild fish.
As I mentioned, we plan to send a letter tomorrow to all our supporters explaining our mission and what we are trying to accomplish for wild fish.

All The Best,

Tom

Tom Derry
Native Fish Society
Development Director
221 Molalla Ave., Suite 100
Oregon City, OR 97045
503-496-0807
www.nativefishsociety.org


MY NOTE: I would like to point out that catch and release to support wild trout is a totally different subject than closing hatcheries and/or catchign ESA salmon and steelhead - this is an apple and oranges argument here and you can see how the leader of the NFS is trying to mislead peple on their TRUE agenda!

What I have done in writing 50 emails has made the NFS react by sending letters to all their donors - imagine what we could do if EVERYONE here wrote just a few emails!

The NFS supports closing hatcheries - if hatcheries close that means our ability to fish for salmon and steehead will CEASE! The ESA will not allow us to fish for listed fish period - no matter the method! Dont let this happen. We need to kick the NFS where it hurts - IN THE DONATION LIST!

Many of you may not know this, but the NFS sued the state to close trout hatcheries and stocking on the McKenzie river but the suit didnt stand a chance because of the guides alliance in the area challenged them. The NFS moved to a river closer to the Portland Metro area because of bigger liberal base to support their efforts. The NFS is clearly probing the edges of our system looking for a way in to stop our ability to fish and harvest! Here is a link to the McKenzie/Sandy information...
http://threeriverssportsmansalliance...er-flyfishers/
Please take 5-10 minutes of your time to send an email or post on the Facebook page of the donors listed here...
http://nativefishsociety.org/index.p...homewaters201/

Tell these companies how you feel about the NFS agenda. Ask them if they would like all sport and commercial salmon and steelhead fishing shut down... THIS ONLY TAKES A SECOND AND YOUR EFFORT CAN MAKE A LASTING IMPRESSION!

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Old 06-18-2013, 09:41 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by 5-Cents View Post
The NFS moved to a river closer to the Portland Metro area because of bigger liberal base to support their efforts.
The fact that you think closing hatcheries can be defined within the confines of a poorly fitting political dichotomy tells me all I need to know about you. I've said it before--I'd be willing to support you if you weren't so intent on driving people away from your cause. Open your eyes, quit with the bias, and you'll get more people to listen to you.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:41 AM   #3
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

I have been writing emails and letters also..

I see Lamiglas still on that donor list. They need to get them off! I hate seeing Lami's name on there, especially after they came out publicly and said they DO NOT support NFS.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
The fact that you think closing hatcheries can be defined within the confines of a poorly fitting political dichotomy tells me all I need to know about you. I've said it before--I'd be willing to support you if you weren't so intent on driving people away from your cause. Open your eyes, quit with the bias, and you'll get more people to listen to you.
Big words that say nothing - please enlighten us!

Here is where I stand in plain, easy to understand English... If you close hatcheries you will close ALL salmon and steelhead fishing, even catch and release. I am against this.

You turn...
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

Pro-hatchery liberal here. Just sayin'.
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

5-Cents keep up the good fight Bro.
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:55 AM   #7
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5-Cents keep up the good fight Bro.
you go Shane! Complete support here as well !
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:00 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
The fact that you think closing hatcheries can be defined within the confines of a poorly fitting political dichotomy tells me all I need to know about you. I've said it before--I'd be willing to support you if you weren't so intent on driving people away from your cause. Open your eyes, quit with the bias, and you'll get more people to listen to you.
Are you a Fly-fishing Catch & release fan ?


Wild guess....

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Old 06-18-2013, 11:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

I have sent letters to most of them and korkers wrote back and said that I have been mislead, I wrote him back and said I will vote with my dollars.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:31 AM   #10
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Are you a Fly-fishing Catch & release fan ?


Wild guess....

And as usual you display your lack of intelligence with your need for generalizations.

I bonk about 30 salmon and steelhead annually. I fully support hatcheries on hatchery rivers. Like most fly anglers do.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:34 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
And as usual you display your lack of intelligence with your need for generalizations.

I bonk about 30 salmon and steelhead annually. I fully support hatcheries on hatchery rivers. Like most fly anglers do.


Just a wild guess.....

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Old 06-18-2013, 11:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 5-Cents View Post
Big words that say nothing - please enlighten us!

Here is where I stand in plain, easy to understand English... If you close hatcheries you will close ALL salmon and steelhead fishing, even catch and release. I am against this.

You turn...
Exactly what I thought reading his reply.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

Just sent my check in to NFS. Thanks for reminding me, Shane. I put a little extra in there just for you.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:03 PM   #14
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5 cents I'm with you bro. Anti hatchery to me is anti fish bonking and eating fish. The fly shops on the nfs list caught me by surprise. They must want the rivers to their selfish selfs. Especially makes no sense on rivers in a high population area. High demand low resource. Nice plan. If their going to ditch hatcheries then close the rivers down to rafters, swimmers, etc so the spawning fish and eggs aren't disturbed. There's no end to it, or should I say there is an end to the fishing.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:05 PM   #15
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Thanks for the idea Shane I am doing as you suggested. Here is a copy of the first one I posted:
To whom it may concern: I was looking to spend approximately $1000 on a kayak. Yours came highly recommended by a friend of mine. Unfortunately I see that you are a donor to the Native Fish Society. The Native Fish Society is seeking to eliminate harvest opportunity on several local watersheds. They have sued the ODFW at the cost of hundreds of thousands of $$$$ that could have went to habitat restoration or increased fishing opportunity. My friends and I can not support your business because of this and will be shopping else where from now on.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:07 PM   #16
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

I think it's been said before, if you don't like the NFS and what they stand for, then go after the NFS directly. Leave the little guys alone. I'm sure they could do without the harassment.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:08 PM   #17
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You're doing a good thing Shane. I appreciate your efforts.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverJohn View Post
Are you a Fly-fishing Catch & release fan ?


Wild guess....

Just to let you know, I happen to be a HUGE fly fishing fan. Thats the only way I fish for trout, and most of the time I practice catch and release

I am actually FOR the NFS agenda of restoring habitat - who would be against this?

The problem is their stance on hatchery production - I will work till the end of days opposing their agenda here!

We can use better science to produce better hatchery fish, we can and should be supplementing wild stocks with brood stock fish. The science is out there!
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

Here is my copy of the latest letter I sent - please feel free to utilize the format but throw some of yourself into it!
Hello,

I am writing to you because the Native Fish Society (NFS) has listed you as a donor to their 2013 action to support their agenda. You can find your organizations name listed here;

http://nativefishsociety.org/index.php/home-2/sponsors-partners/homewaters201/

You may not be aware of this (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt), but the NFS has an agenda to close fish hatchery production in the Pacific Northwest. Doing so would effectively shut down all commercial and sport fishing for ALL salmon and steelhead in our state. You can see the NFS hatchery agenda here;

http://nativefishsociety.org/index.php/conservation/hatchery-accountability-project/

The NFS has been probing the edges of our current system looking for a gap in current management strategies as a way to shut down fishing on our rivers. They first tried to sue the State of Oregon over stocking trout in the McKenzie River in Eugene. That effort failed due to a strong user group intervention (guides/outfitters/public) so the NFS devised a plan to file another law suit over hatchery production on the Sandy River. You can view the related materials here;

http://threeriverssportsmansalliance.com/court-documents-for-sandy-river-lawsuit-by-plantiffs-native-fish-society-and-mckenzie-river-flyfishers/

I have my doubts that your organization would knowingly support an group that has such an agenda. The NFS quotes science as their ally. In reality new research is showing that brood stock hatchery programs actually are good at rebuilding wild fish stocks – if you are interested one case study can be found here;

https://pisces.bpa.gov/release/documents/documentviewer.aspx?pub=A00009245-1.pdf

I would ask that you take the time to understand what your donation supports. Ultimately the decisions on how to run your business is yours but you should understand that there are many sportsmen and women out there that can also choose not to patronize companies that support the NFS.

Thank you,

Shane Nichols
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:16 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by 5-Cents View Post
Just to let you know, I happen to be a HUGE fly fishing fan. Thats the only way I fish for trout, and most of the time I practice catch and release

I am actually FOR the NFS agenda of restoring habitat - who would be against this?

The problem is their stance on hatchery production - I will work till the end of days opposing their agenda here!

We can use better science to produce better hatchery fish, we can and should be supplementing wild stocks with brood stock fish. The science is out there!
Ditto
X2


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Old 06-18-2013, 12:17 PM   #21
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I fully support hatcheries on hatchery rivers. Like most fly anglers do.
Interesting statement. Could you provide a list of the rivers deemed hatchery, wild only and mixed?
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
The fact that you think closing hatcheries can be defined within the confines of a poorly fitting political dichotomy tells me all I need to know about you. I've said it before--I'd be willing to support you if you weren't so intent on driving people away from your cause. Open your eyes, quit with the bias, and you'll get more people to listen to you.

Let me get this straight...you think ONE sentence tells you everything you need to know about him, yet HE'S the one with the bias?
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:18 PM   #23
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I think it's been said before, if you don't like the NFS and what they stand for, then go after the NFS directly. Leave the little guys alone. I'm sure they could do without the harassment.
This would be like writing a check to NFS them writing a check to ODFW for legal support. You will never win a war giving your enemy ammo.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 5-Cents View Post
Just to let you know, I happen to be a HUGE fly fishing fan. Thats the only way I fish for trout, and most of the time I practice catch and release

I am actually FOR the NFS agenda of restoring habitat - who would be against this?

The problem is their stance on hatchery production - I will work till the end of days opposing their agenda here!

We can use better science to produce better hatchery fish, we can and should be supplementing wild stocks with brood stock fish. The science is out there!
I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I just wish (and feel it would be far more productive) we could continue the conversation without the political undertones. If I misread your use of the word "liberal", I apologize.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:20 PM   #25
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Let me get this straight...you think ONE sentence tells you everything you need to know about him, yet HE'S the one with the bias?
I've read dozens of his posts over the last few weeks, and the general direction of these threads is liberal hate and fly angler hate. I for one feel the conversation would be better served if people disposed of the incorrect generalizations and political ********. It's not a political issue. Making it so loses a lot of potential supporters.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
If those are big words I'm sorry for your education.

Conservation isn't a liberal/conservative issue. Especially when you consider that hatcheries are state/federal run and funded, and are therefore bigger government. Your insistence on bringing politics into it (you're the one who used the word "liberal") just alienates those liberals who would side with you, and believe me, most of them would on the Sandy issue if you weren't so intent on making an ass of yourself.

And incidentally, the majority of fly anglers (who again you insist on alienating from your cause) are rich, white, male, over the age of 60 and overwhelmingly conservative. This demographic has remained consistent throughout a few decades of market research. Just check any AFTMA industry report.
When you start labeling people you minimize your support, this not an issue that pits fly guys against gear guys or liberals against conservatives. It's about "opportunity", its about people that don't want to lose what they have against people that want you to have less.

Others have noted the success of the guide association on the McKenzie, most of them fly fish for a living. Even the most conservative among them.

And you really need to find some other "drama" if you can't get past the Lamiglass donation.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:22 PM   #27
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I am going to continue working on this, I have hit 5 or 6 places already and will continue this evening.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:22 PM   #28
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The way to go after the NFS is to go after the money!
Sure, but most of the people on the "donor" list you're referring to only did a one time small donation for their banquet, right? Probably thinking "sure, a tax write off will be nice, what the heck, here's a gift card." I'm guessing if the NFS actually looses a few of those donors due to this, they won't have a problem finding different ones for next years banquet. Meanwhile, the little guys are getting inundated with emails from folks telling them they screwed up by donating to a cause that they've probably forgotten about already anyway. Point being, (in my opinion anyway) it's not going to do a bit of good in the long run, and just annoy a bunch of businesses. Just my thoughts. Take 'em for what they're worth.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:23 PM   #29
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Interesting statement. Could you provide a list of the rivers deemed hatchery, wild only and mixed?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that rivers that have mass produced hatch brats for nearly a century (or more, in the case of the Kalama) are far more disposed towards hatchery genetics than wild genetics. Which is why many people, myself included, as well as several biologists I know, prefer a mixed approach to wild fish recovery. Having wild fish sanctuaries isn't a bad idea, it just needs to be done on rivers where its possible. I doubt the Sandy is one of those.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by PerfectRiverLevels View Post
When you start labeling people you minimize your support, this not an issue that pits fly guys against gear guys or liberals against conservatives. It's about "opportunity", its about people that don't want to lose what they have against people that want you to have less.

Others have noted the success of the guide association on the McKenzie, most of them fly fish for a living. Even the most conservative among them.

And you really need to find some other "drama" if you can't get past the Lamiglass donation.
Precisely.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:31 PM   #31
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And incidentally, the majority of fly anglers (who again you insist on alienating from your cause) are rich, white, male, over the age of 60 and overwhelmingly conservative. This demographic has remained consistent throughout a few decades of market research. Just check any AFTMA industry report.

What's that saying? There are lies, dam lies, and statistics? Before "the movie" almost all fly anglers were conservatives with the expection of many guides and some of the more famous writers on the subject. Those were the good old days. After "the movie" fly fishing has been over taken by crazy granola crunchers. With two exceptions of the red shed fly shop and one of the rod companies based in Dallas, I'd say almost all those groups are pretty liberal. They are entitled to their opinions and best business plans but don't try and paint the general populace of the fly fishing community as conservative. Redford and Pitt sure as heck aren't conservative, may their souls remain in eternal damnation for "the movie" and what it did to flyfishing.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that rivers that have mass produced hatch brats for nearly a century (or more, in the case of the Kalama) are far more disposed towards hatchery genetics than wild genetics. Which is why many people, myself included, as well as several biologists I know, prefer a mixed approach to wild fish recovery. Having wild fish sanctuaries isn't a bad idea, it just needs to be done on rivers where its possible. I doubt the Sandy is one of those.
The Kalama and the Sandy, that's quite a comprehensive list.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Carp4Fun View Post
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that rivers that have mass produced hatch brats for nearly a century (or more, in the case of the Kalama) are far more disposed towards hatchery genetics than wild genetics. Which is why many people, myself included, as well as several biologists I know, prefer a mixed approach to wild fish recovery. Having wild fish sanctuaries isn't a bad idea, it just needs to be done on rivers where its possible. I doubt the Sandy is one of those.
You doubt ???

Psssst...

Perhaps you might want to do some research or talk with people that have been fishing it for decades.

The Sandy River IS a hatchery based river and has been for 40 years. PGE was legally responsible to PLANT HATCHERY FISH to compensate fishermen for lost fish runs. Have you ever heard of Marmot dam ? Have you even fished the Sandy River before ?

Don't doubt.... ask ?
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:23 PM   #34
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What's that saying? There are lies, dam lies, and statistics? Before "the movie" almost all fly anglers were conservatives with the expection of many guides and some of the more famous writers on the subject. Those were the good old days. After "the movie" fly fishing has been over taken by crazy granola crunchers. With two exceptions of the red shed fly shop and one of the rod companies based in Dallas, I'd say almost all those groups are pretty liberal. They are entitled to their opinions and best business plans but don't try and paint the general populace of the fly fishing community as conservative. Redford and Pitt sure as heck aren't conservative, may their souls remain in eternal damnation for "the movie" and what it did to flyfishing.
I hear this constantly but just can't find these raging hippies and it isn't for lack of trying. Hell I just spent a week in Montanta, and trust me all those fly guys are far from liberal, even the youngest among them. Maybe the problem is words like liberal and conservative don't do a good job of describing people. Maybe those "statistics" that claim most Americans hold a mix of beliefs are right. And maybe just maybe, if people would stop politicizing each others beliefs and look at the issue of their own accord, we could achieve something.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:26 PM   #35
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lib·er·al
/ˈlib(ə)rəl/

Adjective
Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
Noun
A person of liberal views.
Synonyms
generous - bounteous - lavish - bountiful - free

See the bolded section - I intend no offense to people who consider themselves politically liberal. My intent/context was to use the word in the above defintion. Liberal in my context means "who needs to bonk fish", "who needs to harvest fish", "who needs to fish" - thats what I mean. Liberal in the sense that someone does not believe in harvest or killing things for food!
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:29 PM   #36
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There is obviously a LOT of hate towards the NFS on here. Id be curious what a better option for the future is other than restoring habitat and natural production in streams (that's what their goal seems to be)? I know when I think about what our fisheries will look like in 30 years, the hatchery fish and current status quo don't give me much hope.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: NFS is blinking...

you go Shane
you have lots of support down here
my letters are on there way
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ORwaterfowler View Post
There is obviously a LOT of hate towards the NFS on here. Id be curious what a better option for the future is other than restoring habitat and natural production in streams (that's what their goal seems to be)? I know when I think about what our fisheries will look like in 30 years, the hatchery fish and current status quo don't give me much hope.
Hatchery fish have been here for over 100 years, if NFS gets their way the rivers will end up closed to fishing, and we'll all be catching bucket mouths in the farm pond. If those of us who rationally want to restore habitat and increase harvest opportunity get their way you will see a better fishery. The reason our fisheries seem so bleak is that our hatchery production keeps getting smaller and smaller.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ORwaterfowler View Post
There is obviously a LOT of hate towards the NFS on here. Id be curious what a better option for the future is other than restoring habitat and natural production in streams (that's what their goal seems to be)? I know when I think about what our fisheries will look like in 30 years, the hatchery fish and current status quo don't give me much hope.
You need to dig deeper into their agenda - I think everyone on here would agree with habitat restoration. The real agenda of the NFS is located on their hatchery reform pages.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:45 PM   #40
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Hatchery fish have been here for over 100 years, if NFS gets their way the rivers will end up closed to fishing, and we'll all be catching bucket mouths in the farm pond. If those of us who rationally want to restore habitat and increase harvest opportunity get their way you will see a better fishery. The reason our fisheries seem so bleak is that our hatchery production keeps getting smaller and smaller.
I dont see anything on the NFS website that says they want to close rivers to fishing or even that they are anti fishing. can you please point me to it? I'm really curious to read their stance on that...
The reason the fisheries see so bleak is because there have been too many band aids for far to long. Hatcheries are a band aid not a solution...
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:53 PM   #41
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You live in a trailer park?? Not a guess.
I would need to be at least fly-fishing guide to afford such luxury.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:58 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ORwaterfowler View Post
I dont see anything on the NFS website that says they want to close rivers to fishing or even that they are anti fishing. can you please point me to it? I'm really curious to read their stance on that...
The reason the fisheries see so bleak is because there have been too many band aids for far to long. Hatcheries are a band aid not a solution...

No they're a scapegoat and are blamed for far more damage than can actually be proven at the population viability level IMO.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:58 PM   #43
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You have my support! And I applaud your effort here very much! I am not reading this as a bias liberal/conservative view. People see what they want out of reading a post. Bottom line, we need to stop the push to close hatcheries!!!!
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:58 PM   #44
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I would need to be at least fly-fishing guide to afford such luxury.
You would be welcome in mine even if you own a 30k sled.
Glade we got that worked out being that we're all on the same side.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ORwaterfowler View Post
There is obviously a LOT of hate towards the NFS on here. Id be curious what a better option for the future is other than restoring habitat and natural production in streams (that's what their goal seems to be)? I know when I think about what our fisheries will look like in 30 years, the hatchery fish and current status quo don't give me much hope.
I think you're pretty spot on, only removing hatchery fish has not been shown to restore natural production. I believe the source of the ire is in the focus on hatchery fish. NFS puts the focus there but the reality is that in the absence of anything else, it's worthless- yet amazingly destructive to fisheries.

The reason for hatchery fish is that the watersheds cannot produce wild fish of any substantial numbers. The need for hatchery fish is the symtom, not the disease.

Here's a pretty decent read that finally makes a great point at the end that is- Eliminate THE NEED for hatcheries and they will go away. http://www.flyshopnw.com/index.php/weblog

I don't see NFS doing anything about the need for hatcheries. In fact, the absence of commentary about the effects of hydropower and dams (like Bull Run- who was the City of Portland lady that's on NFS board?) cleanly cutting off access to habitat is conspicuously absent on their website.

Instead, NFS rolls out studies that span the last 20 years, never looking at examples all around us to see if those studies translate into de facto more fish.

How long do you get to run around with a paper in your hand before you're called for actual results? 10 years....15?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:03 PM   #46
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You would be welcome in mine even if you own a 30k sled.
Glade we got that worked out being that we're all on the same side.

Likewise.

But closing hatcheries and sport fishing harvest does not really put us on the same side.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:05 PM   #47
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lib·er·al
/ˈlib(ə)rəl/

Adjective
Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
Noun
A person of liberal views.
Synonyms
generous - bounteous - lavish - bountiful - free

See the bolded section - I intend no offense to people who consider themselves politically liberal. My intent/context was to use the word in the above defintion. Liberal in my context means "who needs to bonk fish", "who needs to harvest fish", "who needs to fish" - thats what I mean. Liberal in the sense that someone does not believe in harvest or killing things for food!
So does that mean that guys in jet sleds are liberals and guys in drift boats are conservatives?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:05 PM   #48
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I dont see anything on the NFS website that says they want to close rivers to fishing or even that they are anti fishing. can you please point me to it? I'm really curious to read their stance on that...
The reason the fisheries see so bleak is because there have been too many band aids for far to long. Hatcheries are a band aid not a solution...
I suspect you are a member of NFS, so I don't need to go any further on that. There are plenty of threads on hatchery issues, feel free to do some research.

You go Shane, I am blowing up facebook accounts of those who support NFS financially
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:06 PM   #49
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So does that mean that guys in jet sleds are liberals and guys in drift boats are conservatives?
What are you talking about? Is a drift boat new and open thinking? No, its very traditional. What does this have to do with anything?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:07 PM   #50
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So does that mean that guys in jet sleds are liberals and guys in drift boats are conservatives?
This isn't about politics, this isn't a political board. If you disagree with Shane's tactics say so and move on.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:07 PM   #51
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I think you're pretty spot on, only removing hatchery fish has not been shown to restore natural production. I believe the source of the ire is in the focus on hatchery fish. NFS puts the focus there but the reality is that in the absence of anything else, it's worthless- yet amazingly destructive to fisheries.

The reason for hatchery fish is that the watersheds cannot produce wild fish of any substantial numbers. The need for hatchery fish is the symtom, not the disease.

Here's a pretty decent read that finally makes a great point at the end that is- Eliminate THE NEED for hatcheries and they will go away. http://www.flyshopnw.com/index.php/weblog

I don't see NFS doing anything about the need for hatcheries. In fact, the absence of commentary about the effects of hydropower and dams (like Bull Run- who was the City of Portland lady that's on NFS board?) cleanly cutting off access to habitat is conspicuously absent on their website.

Instead, NFS rolls out studies that span the last 20 years, never looking at examples all around us to see if those studies translate into de facto more fish.

How long do you get to run around with a paper in your hand before you're called for actual results? 10 years....15?

Spot on!
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #52
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I suspect you are a member of NFS, so I don't need to go any further on that. There are plenty of threads on hatchery issues, feel free to do some research.

You go Shane, I am blowing up facebook accounts of those who support NFS financially
Nope not a member.... just a concerned angler that thinks were still on the wrong path same as we have been far too long

Im still waiting on the link to point out to me where NFS is anti fishing as you stated they are???
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #53
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New favorite thread!!! Oh and thanks for putting in the hard work Shane. I think you're on the right path.

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Old 06-18-2013, 02:17 PM   #54
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Nope not a member.... just a concerned angler that thinks were still on the wrong path same as we have been far too long

Im still waiting on the link to point out to me where NFS is anti fishing as you stated they are???
did you do as advised and visit there section on hatcheries? Do you think if they openly came out and said they were against all fishing they could get the support they do? Why do you think they spend all the money they have spent in court on the single lowest impacting issue wild fish face?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:21 PM   #55
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I've read dozens of his posts over the last few weeks, and the general direction of these threads is liberal hate and fly angler hate. I for one feel the conversation would be better served if people disposed of the incorrect generalizations and political ********. It's not a political issue. Making it so loses a lot of potential supporters.

Actually it is a political issue, NFS made it one when they sued the state.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:24 PM   #56
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did you do as advised and visit there section on hatcheries? Do you think if they openly came out and said they were against all fishing they could get the support they do? Why do you think they spend all the money they have spent in court on the single lowest impacting issue wild fish face?
Yes I did, and didnt see anything on there about being anti fishing either (it seems you have me looking for something that's not there). I saw statement that they are wanting to hold ODFW to their commitment to not harm or impact native species.

Conclusion
The Native Fish Society believes that the information provided by this Hatchery Accountability Project will provide ODFW, the governor and the Oregon Legislature with valuable tools to use in assuring that Oregon’s fish hatchery program is operated in the public interest for the long-term benefit and health of our native fish and wildlife resources consistent with the directive in the State Wildlife Policy (ORS496.012). That statute requires that the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife and the Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission “prevent the serious depletion of any indigenous species…”.Given the fact that many of our native fish populations are already seriously depleted and currently listed under the state and federal Endangered Species Acts, it’s clear that Oregon has failed to carry out this required mandate in the State Wildlife Policy. By implementing this accountability project, Oregon can reverse this trend and begin living up to its obligation to protect the state’s native fish and wildlife resources.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:33 PM   #57
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[QUOTE=cosmo;4618826]I think you're pretty spot on, only removing hatchery fish has not been shown to restore natural production. I believe the source of the ire is in the focus on hatchery fish. NFS puts the focus there but the reality is that in the absence of anything else, it's worthless- yet amazingly destructive to fisheries.

The reason for hatchery fish is that the watersheds cannot produce wild fish of any substantial numbers. The need for hatchery fish is the symtom, not the disease.

Here's a pretty decent read that finally makes a great point at the end that is- Eliminate THE NEED for hatcheries and they will go away. http://www.flyshopnw.com/index.php/weblog

I don't see NFS doing anything about the need for hatcheries. In fact, the absence of commentary about the effects of hydropower and dams (like Bull Run- who was the City of Portland lady that's on NFS board?) cleanly cutting off access to habitat is conspicuously absent on their website.

Instead, NFS rolls out studies that span the last 20 years, never looking at examples all around us to see if those studies translate into de facto more fish.

How long do you get to run around with a paper in your hand before you're called for actual results? 10 years....15?[/QUOTE]


Great post!
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:33 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo View Post
I think you're pretty spot on, only removing hatchery fish has not been shown to restore natural production. I believe the source of the ire is in the focus on hatchery fish. NFS puts the focus there but the reality is that in the absence of anything else, it's worthless- yet amazingly destructive to fisheries.

The reason for hatchery fish is that the watersheds cannot produce wild fish of any substantial numbers. The need for hatchery fish is the symtom, not the disease.

Here's a pretty decent read that finally makes a great point at the end that is- Eliminate THE NEED for hatcheries and they will go away. http://www.flyshopnw.com/index.php/weblog

I don't see NFS doing anything about the need for hatcheries. In fact, the absence of commentary about the effects of hydropower and dams (like Bull Run- who was the City of Portland lady that's on NFS board?) cleanly cutting off access to habitat is conspicuously absent on their website.

Instead, NFS rolls out studies that span the last 20 years, never looking at examples all around us to see if those studies translate into de facto more fish.

How long do you get to run around with a paper in your hand before you're called for actual results? 10 years....15?

Great post!
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:06 PM   #59
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I miss everything attending work meetings. Shane keep up the fight. Some folks still don't get the big picture and what's involved in the next couple years if hatcheries keep cutting smolts production much less closing their door. Just amazes me to think of a vast drainage with none to little fish.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:23 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ORwaterfowler View Post
I dont see anything on the NFS website that says they want to close rivers to fishing or even that they are anti fishing. can you please point me to it? I'm really curious to read their stance on that...
The reason the fisheries see so bleak is because there have been too many band aids for far to long. Hatcheries are a band aid not a solution...
I understand your stance on this fully, but I think you're not fully comprehending the succession of the hatchery system and fisheries in the PNW as a whole.

Hatcheries were and are a solution to harvest requirement. They were not intended to replace the wild populations in any other form than to replace the losses sustained from decades of unsustainable harvest on those stocks.

Hatcheries are not the problem, nor are they necessarily always a solution to restoring sustainable populations of wild fish. There are things much more detrimental to wild populations that people just don't want to address. The habitat in most of the PNW is junk and cannot support populations of fish that can be harvested at current levels. Habitat degradation comes in many forms: dams, poor logging practices, urban sprawl, pollution, etc. Simply removing hatchery fish from rivers does nothing to address the root of the problem -- junk habitat. We all want to see improved habitat, but drastic changes need to be made before we can see any measurable results. I see the habitat improvement conundrum akin to wind turbines. They're a great idea until one is in my back yard. Habitat improvement is more than riparian tree plantings and engineered log jams. It requires mostly policy changes -- things that can be done with the stroke of a pen.

Policy makers aren't willing to make the changes necessary because it will mean more industrial restrictions, less housing development and more logging and agricultural regulations -- all this while alienating campaign donors or potential voters.

No, hatcheries are not the solution. However, they also aren't the problem.
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