another fee to suck our wallets dryer

[hankstr]

I can't believe i'm going to have to pay a fee now to go clammin and crabbin when 2004 gets here in a few days . I dont think the amount of times i go out will warrant going if i have to pay for it. what's next?? Pay toilets at all the hot fishing spots, or perhaps day use fees on top of the cost we have to pay for our license and tags.
What do you think? [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[River Ranger]

I don't mind the fee at all.Pretty fair price for a bunch of crab.I beleive that money is going toward management for that fishery.
R.R.

[hrspowr]

I could be wrong, but according to a game officer friend of mine, the $$ for the license will go to enforcement. I live at the coast, and can not tell you the number of abusers I see here every day. I see bucket fulls of female crab and undersize crab. I see people digging a limit of clams, dropping off the bucket and going back for more 2,3 or 4 times! For the $6.50 they are asking, I am more then willing to pay my share to protect the resources. The resources are there for us to enjoy, but we all have to play fair. Otherwise, in 5-10 years, when I want to take my kids out and show them the wonders of our state, there will not be anything left for them to enjoy.

Just my .02 cents worth.

[River Ranger]

Well said! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[2slow]

The fees we pay for licenses, boat ramps, ect are a small part of what we pay for enjoying a wonderful resource. The fact is that it takes money to preserve the resource and hopefully our fees contribute to the cost of managing it. We may not agree on how the money is spent or if enough of it finds its way back to the resource, but we all have to put something back for what we take.

I think the $6.50 for the shellfish license is well worth it.
I doubt $6.50 is going to break too many people.

[hankstr]

I was not aware of what the fees were for . i am all for busting the gomers who are not doing it fairly,and for preserving the resources . I guess i just get tired of fees after awhile it gets old .but im going to go anyway and pay the fees because no summer picnic is complete without a table full of yummmyyyyy dungeness :grin: and I have to agree that 6.50 is worth it for time away with friends and family at the coast.

[Holehog]

We should all be thankfull that we live where we do and that we can enjoy the activities and the resourses we love. If you dig clams once, it' worth the additional $6.50 a year.

By the time you drive to and from the beach, dig and clean your clams they would be cheaper to buy.

Face it, we don't do it to save money, we do it because we enjoy it. The only way you could save money is to harvest more than the limit, so I would say we need better enforcement.

I'm out!

[Full Freezer]

Although I do not live in Ore, if Wa State were to add additional fees to whatever sport licence I chose to purchase, I would not mind as long as it went to enforcement.

Heck, I'd pay an additional $50 if it went directly to a fish cop.

Just my .02

[GutshotApe]

Oregon is the last coastal state in the US to institute a shellfish license...and we are tied with Mississippi for the lowest cost license... If you think $6.50 is too much, check out what it costs for shellfish licenses in other states, like Maine (around $100, I've heard).

[Crazy Fisherman]

Will it stop at $6.50? or will it just keep going up from there like the rest of or tags. I think it`s just another way to get into the sportsmans pockets. If the money went into law enforcement it might be OK, but does it? Who knows.

[River Ranger]

Even if it did increas over the years it would probably be worth it when you consider the cost of crab.There is no anual limit on crabs,Right?
R.R.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Crazy Fisherman:
If the money went into law enforcement it might be OK, but does it? Who knows.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You should call your state rep...I think your guy is Alan Brown...thanks to gerrymandering, he's mine, too. Ask him. He will probably be able to provide details of the state police f&w trooper(s) that will be funded by the shellfish license revenue as well as the ODFW clam/crab biologist that we used to have...but now don't...but soon will again thanks to the license $$$. Also, the directed funding to the Dept of Ag for paralytic shellfish poisoning testing that will also be paid for by clammers & crabbers who buy the license.

Jeez...some people sure are cynical.

[ 12-29-2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[corkyking]

To me it is not the amount of the fee as much as it is the sometimes slimy way that bureaucrats get the fee.

Sometimes it is organized crime-like. We are threatened with dire consequences if we don't see the error of our ways. In the news tonight we were threatened with the early release of prisoners if the bureaucrats can't balance the budget. This type of tactic is common today and is dispicable. The budget could be balanced with substantial cuts in topheavy Departments like maybe WDFW.

But I digress - the RCW establishing legislative intent in the formation of WDFW, if followed, would make it seem that our concerns were being addressed even if the complaining went on unabated.

"The legislature finds that all fish, shellfish, and wildlife species should be managed under a single comprehensive set of goals, policies, and objectives, and that the decision-making authority should rest with the fish and wildlife commission. The commission acts in an open and deliberative process that encourages public involvement and increases public confidence in department decision making ."

[Smj]

Worth the extra $6.50??...Try $13.00, not gonna' leave the wife in the car...OH WAIT, The two kids eat clams and crabs too! I mean, if young Johnny is going to help me sort and size the crabs and young jane likes to dig her own clams, the regs say they have to have tags also. So let's make that $26.00. Now, starting in '03 my boat tags went up, just short of doubling by a couple of $$. Auto license, same as boat tags! I have two full size pick-ups and a Subaru wagon, insurance went up on the autos last year.............................................. ....How about food prices??? What's that beef steak cost now compared to a year ago (recent mad cow in WA. not withstanding)???

So, my point is, is that it's NOT just a little ol' $6.50 extra! All these price hikes are starting to dig in to the quality of life of some people, me included. I, and I'm sure some others start to resent the old "It's only $6.50" speil. I would expect with all the new fee hikes we have in Oregon now we ought to be good for a few years???

OH YA, My boat insurance didn't go up this year...That's good news!

Smj

[o-mykiss]

Well, I don't mind paying fees for use, especially if the money is for enforcement. However, there is a good chance that it goes into the general fund subsidizing other programs freeing up other money so we can put more into enforcement. If the govt. would get a handle on their spending problem, we could easily fund enforcement and a whole lot more. Take it from a guy who watches 'the man' waste our hard earned dollars every day at work. I guess I will stick to trout and salmon.

[Nuttinbutnet]

Full Size Pickup- $28000
Boat- $20000
Tackle and Gear- $5000
Opportunity to use the above in the pursuit of happiness- PRICELESS!!!!

[RichH]

I think this one has been beaten into the ground. Do a search, you'll find stuff all the way back to August of 02.

All the way back then there was calls for responses for the added fees which had overwhelming support at the hearings here in Salem. Now is certainly too late to be complaining, if you had concerns it would have been a better use of time to attend the meeting and voice them. The only dissenter was the Tammy Faye legislator from McMinnville.

[Woody]

I don't mind a bit. In fact I'm all for the concept of user fees and I wish they would do more of it. Why should I pay for another persons fun? You crab, you pay. Use a boat ramp, you pay. Camp, you pay. Bracing myself and putting on my flameproof suit I might even go for toll roads.

[Noah II]

SMJ
I agree with you! Far too many postings indicate some cannot see the forest for the trees.
We need to look beyond the immediate fee increase to our overall tax burden. Just how much tax is enough? When does it stop?
NoahII

[reeldick]

Oregon is one of the last places that is making user based fees the law. I have paid to use resources in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Alaska. What's the big deal. You use the resource-- You pay for it and the cost to run it.
I don't use the Snow Parks so I don't pay the fee. I don't use the federal trails so I don't pay the fee.
I was one on the people who went to Salem to tell them we would pay higher fees to keep our fishing resources funded. A lot of us attended the meeting.
The increases are not a big deal. I think I probably spend more on sand shrimp every year than my license and tag cost me.
Try thinking on the positive side of the increase, all the good things you will get and the things you have that will not be taken away for lack of funding.

[hawgcatcher]

The fee is something that should have been for quite awhile. I have watched our shellfish be exploited by so many people for so long and all of you must agree that the shellfish population is declining. I am sure that the department that gets the money will be using it in the right way because so many people are now watching our budgets. I am not talking about the legislators but people like us on Ifish. If it is spent wrongly, then someone will rise up and complain.

I was recently in a sporting goods store and overheard a woman state that she and her spouse would go clamming and get their limit, return to their camper and unload, then go back for more. She was complaining to a friend that they had the right to get all these and they didn't feel they would even get a license as there were not enough police to monitor the harvest.

Maybe with all the citations that will be issued, we will get more money to hire more game cops and then we will stop the snaggers and these people that take excessive limits.

[Rip'N'Lips]

SMJ-

Just to clarify, as long as your kids are under 14 years old, they don't need a tag for crabbing or clamming.

Keep in mind that for $130 you can get 20 salmon, 5 sturgeon, 5? Halibut, fish for trout all year, get 1 deer, 1 elk, a cougar, a bear, a turkey and upland game hunt. Pretty damn cheap when you think about it.

Rip'N'Lips

[CAPT KUJO]

Consider yourself LUCKY to be an Oregonian!

CAPT KUJO

[Siwash]

Amen to what Capt Kujo said.

[Smj]

Just to clarify my point. I consider the license increases something that needed to be done. What I'm looking at is increases across the board in my household, exept boat insuranse of course. One question: When are all of these increasing fees going to turn the outdoor activities that we all love so much into activities only the rich can aford??

$28,000.00 truck
$20,000.00 boat
$5,000.00 tackle
VS
$950.00 '64 Ford work truck, actual milage unknown.
$8500.00 '84 GMC play truck/boat hauler, 148000 miles. New engine 6000m ago.
'91 Subaru wagon, 110000m.
These are paid for.
'01 17' Smoker Craft, Got an inheritance, to pay for this.
$5000.00 in tackle? Wow...that would cover quite a few years for me, what do you do to spend that much $$, throw it all in the river after every trip?


I,ve still got money enough to cover these new expenses but, evey year I seem to have to scrimp on something a bit to cover all the increases in everything else.

Like I indicated in my earlier post, it boarders on insulting to me (and others) to have people telling me that I should be happy about having to scrimp if I want to coninue to recreate as I have in the past. I agree that Oregon is beautiful country, but it aint got nothin' on alot of other states in the west, such as Montana, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado Etc. I've traveled and fished these states, I know.

Perhaps the people that have enough money that these constantly increasing fees don't concern them in the least should pay higher fees than us regular folks that are just getting by?

Smj

[Fisherfield]

I was amazed at how much a non resident Oregon license is this year. Let me explain....my dad and I have a bit of a tradition. I normally buy him a non resident Washington license and he gets me an Oregon. My dad has only fished with me 2 times in the past 2 years in Washington, so I decided it would be a waste of money to buy him that this year..so I did something else for him. He got me the Oregon license, considering I fished at least 50 days in Oregon last year...well worth the money...but when he told me that it went up from 60 to 83!! Geeze...what's with that?? I know the money goes to good use, but man oh man...over a 20dollar jump??

[Wingman]

I do not mind the fee, it is a small thing, as long as it is not put into the general fund to be spent on new SUVs for state employees. I want the fee to go to ODFW, not the Governor.

[SKP]

hankstr:

:shocked: [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

SKP :grin:

[ 12-30-2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: SKP ]

[o-mykiss]

Fisherfield,
State governments are trying to save their programs anyway they can, whether it be a worthy program (ODFW) or not (Oregon Health Plan).

[Straydog]

Our elected officials told us they would not raise taxes. They did not raise taxes. This new fee is, in part, a direct result of not raising taxes.

If you feel these services should be delivered without higher taxes and with out increased fees, you need to pound on your state elected officials to come up with the money they keep telling us is there, somewhere, to pay for these services and not raise taxes.

Isn't it about time they deliver on this repeated promise to provide the services we demand without raising taxes???

[Nuttinbutnet]

Hey SMJ-
I have raised my kids and done and been everywhere in life that you are going. When I started fishing, I did it out of an old dodge stationwagon with 250,000 miles on it. Never intentionally threw any gear in the river. I have accumulated quite a bit over 25 YEARS! And as far as being able to afford the privilege of hunting and fishing in this great state, some years all that I could afford was a Fishing Tag, some years a combo. I never once even thought that someone who made more money than me should pay more so I could get more!

[o-mykiss]

The state did raise income taxes, but hopefully we will repeal it this February. If you live in Multnomah County, you get to pay County Income Tax. What is next city income tax?

[Straydog]

The State Legislature raised taxes knowing full well it would be put to a vote of the people and the people will likely vote it down.

To help insure the people will vote it down, the controlling party of the Legislature is actively campaigning to have the surcharge voted down. The controlling party of the Legislature is using party money to help see the surcharge is voted down.

The raising of our taxes was a political shell game that will bite us all in the rear come February, IMO.

[o-mykiss]

Straydog,
I totally agree with you, it is a political shell game. If we demand services we need to pay for them, if we don't have the money, we need to cut them. I blame this mess that is going to happen soon on the Oregon State Legislature. Although, we voted them in.

[Straydog]

O-mykiss,

I agree.

The tough part for the Legislature is determning which services the people want to pay for and where to draw the lines..... As critical as I am of the Legislature, I do recognize they have a very difficult and often thankless job.

Just as you and I may want the best fishing and hunting possible, there are many that want the Oregon Health plan or the State Lottery or the OLCC (I don't know who that might be.... :whazzup: ) or whatever program it is that so many different people demand.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a matter of which lobby has the most money and best lobbiest in Salem that determines a lot in terms of where the money goes.

[o-mykiss]

Straydog,
Well said!!!! Don't get me started on the OLCC.

[Danderson]

Originally posted by SKP:
Wow, people are now turning over new leaves!

SKP :grin:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">LOL

[WaterDog]

What? You mean you can't dig butter's and razor's or catch TUNA! and halibut EAST of oregon?

[Uncle Roman]

I guarantee you will find no "extra enforcement" to "protect" these "resources". You will find you are apparently quite happy to be minus $6.50.

It's the PRINCIPLE!!!

[corkyking]

Fair statement:
"What's the big deal. You use the resource-- You pay for it and the cost to run it."

Correct response (my opinion FWIW)
"I do not mind the fee, it is a small thing, as long as it is not put into the general fund to be spent on new SUVs for state employees"
or your favorite bureaucrats pet re-election strategy like how he voted for this or that increase without raising taxes.

I've read alot lately ,on this board, about the money that is spent on outdoor activities. Seems to me that if the tax and fees generated by sportsmen were dedicated to the activities being taxed things would be better. No?

Hard to argue with:
"Bracing myself and putting on my flameproof suit I might even go for toll roads."

When my brother is asked how he would propose paying for the bridge between Ocean Shores and Westport that he wants he says that "there has never been a toll-bridge in the state that has lost money and never a tax supported ferry that has made any."

[fortywinks]

If you walk to a movie, by yourself, once a month, and don't buy any popcorn, soda, or bonbons, it will cost you in the neighborhood of $75 to $90 bucks a year. If you bring your wife, girlfriend(not at the same time obviously :shocked: ), and/or any kids, you do the math. Are you looking just to be entertained in fantasyland, or are you looking for an experience in the real world? And what will you bring home from the Movie, as against what you will bring home from a clamming or crabbing outing(even if you don't catch your limit)?

My only hope is that these increased licenses and fees beget increased enforcement, habitat improvements, and fish and wildlife enhancements. That is what this shellfish license is SUPPOSED to do. If you have ever been to Netarts Bay on a very minus clam tide and seen the hordes all up and down the bay and then seen one officer checking on the road, and MAYBE, one more at the ramp, you may begin to understand the problem, because unfortunately there are a lot of people out there not paying any regard to the regulations.

[letsfish]

These new fees were along time in coming, not hastely thought out to save someones job. Talk of jsut such a fee has been around for ages. And I agree it is going to hurt more, but planning ahead will make it less painful and a lot less hassle.
I gotta comment on "I agree that Oregon is beautiful country, but it aint got nothin' on alot of other states in the west, such as Montana, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado Etc. I've traveled and fished these states, I know."
I agree in part. As a native and though not as extensively traveled I got my head out of the sand and realized there is more to this world than Oregon.
BUT Oregon does have something on alot of the western states especially Montana, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado. It's an Ocean with tides that make our beaches that provide us with clams and crabs. That's a big something!

[Straydog]

Well said Letsfish.
Ever tried to catch a Salmon or Steelhead in Wyoming or Colorado?? :whazzup:

[Danderson]

I would pay .50 if they would of put a toilet in at some Fish'in holes I visit. I was willing to pay $50.00 last week when I used the wrong leaf.. :shocked:

[SKP]

Wow, people are now turning over new leaves!

SKP :grin:

[SKP]

I think we'll have to just see if the enforcement is beefed up. I think the jury is still out on this one.

I don't mind paying the fee at all, IF, we see more enforcement, and we can see the money at work.

But needing the license for bait (sandshrimp pumping, and having to have your receipt with you to show the gammies if you bought the shrimp at the store?) Give me a break! [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]
:shocked:
Pretty soon you'll have to have a hen tag, or you'll have to toss it back.

SKP

[LuckySteelhead]

You can still dip smelt for free. I wonder how long before you'll need a license for that.

[Okie]

Oregon is in the process of installing a system where you can dial 211 and learn how to get food stamps and other free items from the state. It's costing about 2 million dollars and supposed to be up and operating this spring.

[Mojo]

I just priced Crab at Albertsons. One nice dungy was about $8.00. 'Nuff said...

[Chris White]

From ODFW quick FAQ's:

Q: How will the agencies work together to use the shellfish funds, and will marinas and ports participate?

A: The Oregon Department of Agriculture, Oregon State Police, and Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife already rely upon one another for managing the fisheries. The Oregon Department of Agriculture depends upon the Oregon State Police to enforce toxin closures, and upon the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife to collect many of the samples needed for the toxin testing. The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife depends upon the Oregon State Police to enforce the rules and regulations necessary to ensure a sustainable resource.

Shellfish programs have been severely cut back in the past decade due to state funding reductions. The funds raised by the sale of shellfish licenses will allow a baseline program in each agency to recoup information and resource management programs lost in the past. The agencies will expand cooperative public outreach efforts through partnerships with marinas and ports with joint news releases, cooperative pamphlets about proper shellfish handling and harvesting techniques, beach closure notices, and updated brochures regarding Oregon 's many opportunities to harvest shellfish. In addition, the state agencies will work with charter boats, marinas and ports to develop and enhance public education on marine shellfish.
To view page:
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/FF/shellfish.htm

[Oly Angler]

I agree with all of you concerning where the money should (or not) go. The bill that put the shellfish license into being is SB597. In the language of the bill it directs that the revenue collected from the new shellfish license will be distributed in the following manner: "a) 50 percent to be transferred to the State Department of Agriculture to be used for shellfish inspectors and a shellfish inspection program.
(b) 29 percent to be transferred to the Department of State Police to be used for enforcement of the wildlife laws pertaining to the taking of shellfish, in addition to and not in lieu of amounts transferred from the State Wildlife Fund for enforcement of the wildlife laws.
(c) 21 percent to be used by the State Department of Fish and Wildlife to pay for a shellfish biologist and related expenses."

Assuming that the Legislature refrains from pulling the same (or greater) amounts of General Funds from these areas , this is where the funds are to be used in addition to what is already there.

The problem with Washington State is when the Fish and Game Departments merged and the Wildlife Account was created, the shellfish license was left to the General Fund where the rest went to the Wildlife Account. At least Oregon gets the funds for their shellfish license.

[ 01-01-2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Oly Angler ]

[willierower]

It is now cheaper to be an Oregon residnt and buy a WA freshwater license and punch card than buy an OR fishing license, combined angling tag and a hatchery tag. Something is wrong with that..........

[ORoutdoorsman]

I am torn, and have always been when it comes to fee's. I agree that we need to take care of the resources that we have, and that takes money. But I also see it from the aspect of it is dang expensive for someone who is in school and has a discretionary income of about 0. It is also hard on people who don't have alot of money and have to support a family, because $100 can make a huge difference. Sure, a sportspac is helpful, if you have the $130 at one time(which I, and many others don't), but there are always more fees. I came up with the money for a combo tag, but I cannot fish because I do not yet have a salmon/steelehead tag. I cannot duck hunt sauvies because I don't have the money for a parking pass. I'm not complaining about having to pay fees, because the money has to come from somewhere. I am just saying, that alot of people out there look at it as oh another 6 or 7 or 8 bucks is no big deal. But another 6 or 7 or 8 bucks can be a big deal to someone who does not have the extra money, expecially when it is on every tag or license that you purchase.

[ORoutdoorsman]

Okie...I am not going to go into it because I don't want a heated debate or to offend anyone, but I have a feeling my views of free health care ,welfare, and other "programs" for U.S., and NON U.S. citizens closely coinside with yours. I think if we actually reformed how all the money in the state was spent, we could lower fees and taxes!

[Quasimodo the fish killer]

I dont mind the fee increases as long as they go to ofdw instead of going in the general fund then matching funds being removed from the odfw budget.

it seems to me a few years back when they werew talking about closing down the elk river and rock creek hatcheries they said at that time that those were the last 2 hatcheries that were funded by the state. if the state funds only those 2 hatcheries then where does all the money go that comes from fishing and hunting liceces?

I know the state recieves money from the corps of engineers and from the pitman robertson act plus various other agencies. is that the only funds that odfw actually gets?

if only the other entities are coverinng the costs for odfw welre is the states contributions to help restore our failing runs?

I wish they could controll the costs and give us more for our tax dollar a private industry would go belly up with the spending practices the state has.

I am on limited budget this time of year work slows to a crawl so the fee increase isnt going to hurt me because I cant afford a new licence even if they discounted it 25% lol I always miss the first few weeks of the new year then when work picks up I go get a licence the fee increase will not bother me

[Snapshot]

SMj, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Montana and Colorado do not have shell fish as they don't have the Pacific for a Playground. That is the big differences. Their fishing and hunting licenses are high enouth for hunting or fishing if you are an out of stater.

I for one live here by choice and becasue of all the options offered. Doesn't WASHINGTON have a salt water and fresh water salmon tag fee? Also they have the parking permit fees at most boat ramps. Let's hope Oregon doesn't figure those out.

I agree with you and I do not like fees or users costs either but they will never stop. IF the State would manage thier budgets better we would not see them hitting on Education, Welfare and The Fish and Game and closing hatcheries to get our attention. I have to believe there is something else that could be cut that just doesn't carry it's own weight.

[Smj]

Snapshot, I thought about that "Utah, Wyoming Etc." not having shellfish and the ocean. No direspect intended here. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I was born and raised in the Salt Lake valley. A two hour drive from where I lived could put you on to Brown Trout to 20+", native Lahontan Cutthroat, cuttbows and rainbows to 20+". There's fine catfishing, walleye and crappie scattered about the state too. How far do you have to drive from the tri-county area to get that kind of choice? There's times I really miss the variety of fish that I had close at hand for 27 years in Utah.

For all the people I hear talk about how good it is "Just to be in the great outdoors" allot of you sure seem to only want to be out there after Salmon, Steelhead and shellfish (of course there's the Salty Dogs too).

Now I read the confirmation in the Sunday Oregonian...You have to have a selfish tag to dig a few sandshrimp, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! Why not crawdads? Maybe they're saving crawdads for their OWN SPECIAL tag in the next year or two.
Who out there want's to make a small wager that the ODFW trys to seperate the species on our tags in the next five (5) years?? Remember?? Salmon Stellhead on one tag, Sturgeon tags? Halibut tags? "Oh, we'll combine these and save you money!" HOORAW, I've saved so much money I can now afford that operation I've been wanting!

Smj

That Salmon Steelhead fever stuff has affected me too since I've lived in Oregon, I swear I feel like I shoulda' been born here.

[ 01-02-2004, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Smj ]

[Straydog]

Seems to me a lot of it boils down to priorities.

How much do you spend on your monthly internet connection so you can hang out here?

How much might you be able to earn doing odd jobs or cleaning up area roads collecting beer and pop cans?


It seems to me that if one really wants to fish and hunt bad enough, they can come up with the money with some effort and by spending their money in such a way as to bring the most satisfaction for the buck........... kind of what we all expect from our State government.

[Smj]

Straydog...I want you to know I have a great respect for you and your writings, and read most everything you write with great interest. That being said, and no disrespect intended...

Work harder for what you want and need!

What a concept!

Being self employed, what in the H-E double toothpicks do you think I've been doing these last 10 or so years to make up for all the fee increases! DUH!

Smj