today in oregonian sealions

[FishinFinatic]

article put in oregian today.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...3672082070.xml

[BigBeanCounter]

Time to start selling sea lion harvest tags !! [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

I read that article about "Lumpy" the sea lion. Damn thing has seen more of the Pacific Coast than we will ever see in our lifetime.

I have often times contemplated about popping a cap in those critters when I am venturing out to the CR Bouy. They are always laying on that buoy.

However, after going to the NOAA website I thought better of that considering that bouy is an explosion hazard. Damn H2.

Heres to open season on sea lion harvesting and honing my Bow skills.

[Mr. Carp]

Let me know when I can use them to site in my 300 UltraMag for Elk this year. Those sealions would make good targets. :grin:

[drhall99]

One important part of the article that some may have missed is that the Sea Lions are reclaiming part of their species' historic range. They used to go all the way to Celilo falls. They wouldn't be a problem if not for the MANMADE obstacle (the dam).
In the same article, they added that they are not a problem at Willamette falls but several had to be removed at Ballard Locks (another manmade article). You guys remind me of a lady who wanted all of the bears killed on Baranoff Island (Sitka, Alaska) because they had gotten into her garbage. Salmon flourished for millions of years with these predators eating them. Also, you may have noticed that person they interviewed that said "something had to be done" was a gillnetter (hmmm...). Maybe you could put away the guns long enough to read the WHOLE article.

[ 05-27-2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: drhall99 ]

[BrionLutz]

drhall99,

Funny how folks always seem to miss Door No. 1, more salmon.

Brion

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

Hmmm, being mentioned with a complaining woman and a person who doesn't read the full story, I don't know whether to feel insulted, ignorant or both.

I will say this, the dams are not going to go away over night and from all indications from what I can comprehend from the article and what I have seen over the past 4 years since our salmon runs have improved, the sea lions are definately a big issue with the salmon population. Whether or not it is the "Dam's" fault is a long shot in my book. I just think there are more sea lions today then there was 20 years ago. Oh by the way, that wasn't in the article but I am willing to bet on that one.

However, I am not a doctor [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] but I am college educated [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img] and can read quite well thank you. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[drhall99]

Kentucky Hog Hunter,

No slight intended towards your intelligence. The complaining old lady thing, well that's another matter. Seriously, though, How did the salmon runs survive Sea Lions before we started shooting them? While the Sea Lion numbers are higher than they were twenty years ago, they are nowhere near their historic numbers. I ran into a website that had that information but I can't find it now. I'll post it as soon as I find it. I agree that it will be a long time before the dams are removed, but that issue is being debated on several other threads. The point I wanted to make is that killing wildlife (Sea Lions) to stop them from doing what they are supposed to do (eat salmon) is counterproductive. Man made it easier for them to be successful, maybe the sound emitters that they are using at Ballard locks would be a better solution.

D.

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

Understood DrH.

I am sure this has been debated time and again. I read about the famous sea lion at Ballard Locks and the fun they had taking to San Diego only to have him return to Ballard within 2 weeks.

Todays article definately reminded me of the famous Ballard Sea Lion.

You're definately right about the dams being a major part of the issue on this one and no one can argue that. The numbers this spring were tremendous.

I don't know, but it just seems that over the past 4 years since I have been fishing the coast much more heavily, that there are obviously many more of them around.

[drhall99]

Kentucky Hog Hunter,

I'm not a Dr. just my initials.
And one thing I forgot to say, I cheer out loud when the Killer Whales do their thing to the Sea Lions. That's my idea of effective population control.

D.

[ampersat]

i'll bet that somewhere in their heritage, the native americans of this area hunted sea lions for food. they did also fish for salmon and hunt whales and they are allowed to do so today as well. they could probably get clearance to hunt sea lions too. i'll bet watching a few of their brethren being hunted would instill some fear in these animals.

that being said, i'm not really in favor of killing them. so they eat salmon. BIG DEAL!! are any of you out there having that much trouble filling an extra tag or two because of these animals??

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

Good point Amp on all cases.

I have not had any problem filling tags out there. I also believe if there is going to be a seal kill it would be better to see the whales and the tribes do it. I suppose the only time it would personally affect anyone is if your salmon was on your line and you lost half of it. This has not happened to me yet fortunately.

Also, as for the killer whales & tribes, at least this way the meat won't be wasted.

[Tyeebuster]

Just a few observations from many days on the columbia.

Each year there seems to be more and more Sealions in the river for longer periods of time.

According to a recent article in the Daily News; Test netting in the Columbia in 2001 found 30% of the sets had Seal or Sealion encounters, 60% in 2002 and 100% this year.

Oberserved more fish lost to Sealions the last 2 years.

Doing volunteer time at a local hatchery and of the returning Steelhead approximaly 95% of the return are showing evidence of marine mammal encounters (either bites or scale loss). The number of encounters observed have skyrocketed over the last few years according to the researce biologist on staff. This river has no man made obstructions and Sealions are regularly observed patroling the mouth at the Columbia River.

Unlike the Endagered Spieces Act that provides for the delisting of animals after they reach stabile levels, the Marine Mammal Act provides no such delisting. I actually read the Artile in question and it also stated that at the time the Act was put into place the Sealion numbers were about 1500 animals, now there are over 200,000 and the population is growing at a rate of 8% to 10% per year. Based on this information two question come to mind:

1. What were the levels of these animals before the "white people" came?

2. How many Sealions are enough?

I would say that there certainly is a problem with Sealions in the Columbia River system and that the observation of 1% of the returning salmon eaten at Bonniville dam is not reflective of the salmon lost in the entire Columbia River system. There is one thing for certain, the Sealions are "harvesting" ESA listed salmon. Maybe it is time to reduce the numbers of the numbers of the non-listed male Sealion population in the Columbia River system.

[Herring Impaired]

In the article they state that there were about 2700 salmon taken by the sea lions at the dam.

What about the other 134 miles of river, before they get to the dam. I know for a fact they eat them at the frenchmens bar as well.

[will_e_fish]

By the fish ladder, on the Wa. side, a couple of seals are bringing in salmon every 10 to fifteen minutes. When the fishing is slow seal obsevation goes up. Researchers need independant second opions as their numbers seemed low very low. One Mondo huge sealion lives in the fish ladder. Maybe a little acupuncture for appetite suppression.

[Killertraylor]

That's the same thing I was thinking, Leroy! I was told once by a biologist that an adult sea lion needs to eat 10-15 salmon a day. I thought the numbers in the article were very low based on personal observations I've made in the lower river. I was fishing about 15 miles upriver from Astoria a few years ago in a hogline of 35 boats and three sealions out in the middle of the river outfished the entire hogline almost 4 to one. I'd take the total number of sea lions between buoy 10 and Bonneville and multiply it by 10 fish per day to get a more accurate picture. I might be wrong, but I think they eat a lot more fish than the article said. I'd vote for getting a free sea lion tag with your salmon punchcard each year :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: Rifle bullets don't ever skip on the water do they? [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[Skipper]

How do we encourage the tribes to target sealions?
How do we dispell the publics simpathetic view of sealions?

Cheerio'
Skipper

[FrogPond]

I saw a BIG sealion with a keeper (if not bigger) sturgeon in his/her mug last weekend off Astoria. I thought this was a little strange. Has anyone else seen this?

[Mr. Carp]

I still think popping one now and then like when they steal my fish off my line. Just my opinion.

[pdxkevin]

Costco is having a sale on the sealion size containers of BBQ sauce... qoincedence? I think not.

[Killertraylor]

Frogpond - I've twice seen sea lions with sturgeon but both times they were tiny little sturgeon. I've also cought a dozen or so sturgeon with what looked like sea lion scratches on the sides. If a sea lion is hungry enough to take a stab at a spiny little sturgeon, I say let him try and eat it. Might even hurt a little on the way out :shocked:

[BrionLutz]

Killertraylor

I knew that day would come, Brion. That's why I got the full 250 hp outboard and the hard top!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">False sense of security with that hard top. I figure you need the new 1" depleted uranium hull and sides to be a true fish-predator predator. I think Alumaweld got the jump, offer an adder to the their "Super Vee" with their new "Depleted Vee" model.

The 250HP sounds good for the classic fight or flight decisions.

The more devious hunters will just open a Fishermen's or something and bonk them as they come in the door.

I just hope the bounty for sport fishermen is a bit more than the pikeminnows.

Brion

[lost_sailor]

So ... men deserve salmon meat more than sea lions because __________________________________________

[The Fishing Geek]

Mineminemineminemineminemineminemine.

Gimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimme.

[Bounty Hunter]

And the rabbit hunters should be able to kill all the hawks.

And the ospreys should all be shot to leave more hatchery trout for the kids.

And the roadrunners in the southwest should all be killed to leave more quail for the hunters.

And the diver ducks should be killed to leave more clams and oysters.

[GutshotApe]

In today's Oregonian (page B10) there is a story about a starving 40-pound sea lion that was found on the beach at Pacific City and taken to the Oregon coast Aquarium at Newport in March. It has regained strength and now weighs 90 lbs. "He's doing extremely well...he's a fat and happy boy" said Judy Tuttle of the Aquarium staff.

Officials said they planned to release the young sea lion someplace where it has a good food supply...possibly at Bonneville Dam :shocked: .

No, just kidding! Seriously, the sea lion will actually be going to a Zoo in New Orleans.

[Tyeebuster]

I don't think my point was that Sealions should be shot just to provide fish for me. However, should anything be done to reduce the predation on ESA listed animals (such as Snake River salmon)? At what point should there be intervention? If I recall, Terns, which are also ESA listed, were encouraged to relocate from Rice Island after it was found that they were consuming millions of smolt each year.

Again, does anyone know haw many Sealions there were prior to the arrival of the "white man"? Is there an imbalance? Should we stand by and let nature take its course after we have altered the ecosystem?

[The Fishing Geek]

I think that there has been a lot done to reduce predation on the ESA-listed Snake river fish, and it's called a reduced-harvest season.

[Firedog]

Tyeebuster, don't know the numbers but in the article in the Oregonian it said that Sea lions used to go as far as Cielio Falls. Following the Salmon. I would suspect that before the white man came to the Northwest there were quite a few Sea Lions feeding on the millions of Salmon that used to return up the Columbia. The biggest Downfall of Northwest Salmon is US. I don't really care that the Sea lions are in the river it is a sign of a healthy ecco system. It is also a product of increased Salmon runs. 10 years ago they werent here because there weren't enough Salmon for them to follow. Just my opinion.

[Silver Hilton]

Let me just say, from a purely hypothetical standpoint, that I am fairly convinced that a large firecracker, wrapped with just a bit of pencil lead to sink it just below the surface, causes sealions to depart from the area rapidly. Or that a wrist rocket is effective as a delivery device. Or that said firecrackers can be obtained on Washigton's Indian reservations.

Not that I would have any personal basis for knowing this. At all.

[drhall99]

Don't forget that the Sea Lions helped to make the salmon what they are today through natural selection.

D.

[Killertraylor]

Not a fair comparison, Bounty Hunter. When the hatchery trout, quail, clams, oysters and rabbits become scarce, let me know...

Fishing geek - it's o.k. for it to be about "me, me, me" when we are bashing the gillnetters, but not sea lions? I support a limited commercial harvest of salmon when the runs can support it so it's not a "me, me, me" thing - I just think there is much more predation by sea lions than the article stated. Personally I'd rather see a gillnetter get that fish than a sea lion. :shocked:

[Mr. Carp]

Silver Hilton: My thoughts exactly.

Killertraylor: The problem with the nets is that they don't just catch one. THey catch everything that moves in the river. Personally I'd rather have that salmon on my line. If this is a case of me me me, then so be it.

[Hawgs n Harleys]

When you start loosing fish that you have on the line to a Sealion you will definetly be in favor of Sealion population control. It happened to us for the first time this year, and I saw it happen to quite a few other boats. The problem will get worse. If they offer a tag, I would buy one. I'll post a picture of the sealskin rug as soon as I get it back from the taxidermist.

Brion Lutz, A tag on sportfishermen? Do you consider yourself a sportfisherman? I have seen your picture with fish you have caught. Seems like a strange situation, will you have to shoot yourself?

Are there any good suggestions one how to control Sealion numbers in the Columbia? -Steve

[BrionLutz]

Hawgs and Harleys,

Brion Lutz, A tag on sportfishermen?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yes...if we need to get rid of the salmon predators then we need to start with the most destructive. Get the worst one out of the way...one that kills even though it doesn't need the food...one that kills for pleasure...shudder.

I was hoping for a bit more than just a tag though...I was looking for something like the Pikeminnow bounty.

Brion

[BrionLutz]

Killertraylor,

I think we have to go for the worst salmon predator. I think a harvest tag on sport fishermen is the key.

I've been dying to use my CCL and that laser sight and those night vision gogs. It would be cool...go for the "Predator" camouflage paint on the boat...get out there early...as the "fish killer's" move out in the dawn.

You could only take them on the water, no fair poaching right at the launch ramp. Bankies are fair game but they have to be within 5 feet of the water. And in the interest of equal opportunity, the bankies can bag a boat of salmon predator but they have to be able to retrieve the catch or a big fine.

Probably run it like the PikeMinnow program...you bring your catch to the ramp for certification and disposal.

Now...I've got to get bigger net.

Brion

[Killertraylor]

I knew that day would come, Brion. That's why I got the full 250 hp outboard and the hard top!

This thread reminds me of the elder tribal member of the Macaw's (I think I have the correct tribe) that was being interviewed about the taste of whale blubber a few years ago when they were preparing for the whale hunt. Because it had been so long since the tribe had harvested a whale, he was one of the few members who was alive when they used to do it. When asked in the Oregonian to describe the taste, he (without pause) said it was a cross between porpoise and seal....as if that would help everyone to know exactly what whale tastes like.

Although I'd truly like to thin the sea lions out, the stories I've heard from some of the gillnetters who used to shoot them back when it was legal make it sound like a blood bath that I want no part of.

[cosmo]

In a conversation with the researcher involed with the purse seine study on the Columbia, she alluded to heavy mortality in past tangle net studies based on "pinneped presence"---apparently they stress fish incredibly just by being there and the extra stress can kill then when combined with the stress of a net. Also, she implied the same concerns with sport fisheries where there are pinneped present and released fish (BONEVILLE SPRINGERS). The problem with seals could grow exponentially.

The way I see it, you've taken on management of the river with the placement of dams. You alter one area (fish ladders stacking up fish) and fail to manage others (sea lions looking for an easy meal). I think you have manage the man made side-effects as completely as you are able. They could have killed three animals (maybe three per year) and potentially nipped the problem at the bud, but now inaction has grown the problem large enough that they don't know what to do.

Where's Governor McCall when we need someone to take charge of a situation?

[cosmo]

When I was growing up, we actively hunted rabbits, out of the back of a pickup truck, at night, with shotguns---at about 30 mph. Rabbits in the field, thin em' back a bit.

You have a wholly unnatural situation at Bonneville Dam. Ducks on the pond. It's not a natural place. It's skewed totally in favor of the sealions, as is Ballard Locks, as are many other places. You can't set up a situation totally in favor of one species (sea lions) and expect the other to figure it out (salmon). There's nothing natural about that. Having created the negative situation, we need to manage it. That doesn't have to be a death scentence if there is another way, but if not, maybe.

The mine, mine, mine stuff is garbage--complete and absolute. There's no shortage in the sea lion population, if they need management, so be it. We are the dominant species on this planet, and as such need to act as a good steward. Unfortunately, more and more, stewardship is being presented as total inaction. What a shame.

Notice how there are no natural places where sea lions can dismantle that many fish? That's becasue nature doesn't funnel 180,000 fish through two concrete ladders.

[Killertraylor]

Well said, cosmo. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[drhall99]

Cosmo,
Good stewardship? Ya, like that's been working for us so far. Isn't it our stewardship that caused the problems to begin with.

Hawgs and Harleys,
Had plenty of fish ripped off of my lines. It only made me wish for a killer whale call.

JMO,
D.

[Hawgs n Harleys]

[QUOTE] Yes...if we need to get rid of the salmon predators then we need to start with the most destructive. Get the worst one out of the way...one that kills even though it doesn't need the food...one that kills for pleasure...shudder.

Brion, do you realize sport-fishermen are required to release wild Salmon? Maybe you think Sealions do the same? And why do you type in bold print?

drHall, Killer whale call and a video camara! -Steve

[Mr. Carp]

Hawgs and Harleys, that species of Killer Whales in south america that actually beach themselves going after the seals would be awesome to have around the Astoria Bridge. My 180gr. from my 300 Ultra Mag could get the job done just fine. Heck, I'll just go to the loacal rock pit and see if I can get a box of dynomite!!! :grin:

[skein]

Here it is, guys, the perfect setup. Use it one day for sea lions and the next for the "other" predator. Comes fully equipped.



Skein - :grin:

[SandyRiverFisher]

I have to agree with drhall on this issue. The only place seals and sea lions do any measureable damage to fish populations is below man made migration obstructions such as ballard locks. If you remember all the fuss about the ballard seals, the concern was predominantly about a dwindling run of steelhead, which I believe was down to only a few returing adults per year. The concern was that with only a handfull of fish passing through there each year, that the sea lions could easily wipe them out. This is a good point, and one that has to be made, but demonizing sea lions and scapegoating the issue onto them serves no usefull purpose other than relieving our own guilt. It wasnt the sea lions, after all, that decimated those runs to the point that there were only a few returning adult fish every year. Seriously, we could kill every sea lion out there and it would not improve the situation for our fisheries in any signifigant way. Dont believe me? There's plenty of precedent for the scenario. The largest seal populations in the world were all but wiped off the face of the earth just a few decades ago on the eastern seaboard of canada all in the name of "saving" fisheries. Funny thing, all they accomplished was the destruction of yet another wildlife resource, which resulted in no rebound to the local fisheries. Now, im not a tree hugger, anti-killing type, and I would be all for having the indians go out and harvest a few seals, but there as real danger in getting to comfortable with blaming the wildlife for declines in our fisheries. Doing so blurs our focus on the real issues afflicting the resource that we enjoy and would like to see expand.

[BrionLutz]

Hawgs and Harelye's.

...do you realize sport-fishermen are required to release wild Salmon?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So we'll have to release non-hatchery sport fishermen? Hhmmm...I think they are all hatchery, none grew up in the wild.

Brion

[drhall99]

Brion,

My dad always used to say that the Rose Festival is when the Navy swims upstream to spawn. Wouldn't the product of that spawning be considered wild?

D.

[cosmo]

Holy cow,
I'm talking about a few sea lions and its exploding to the whole 200,000 population.
Puleeeeeese! With quick action a lot of this small problem (that will absolutely grow) could have been kept in check.
I simply an't understand the foul.

[BrionLutz]

drhall99,

My dad always used to say that the Rose Festival is when the Navy swims upstream to spawn. Wouldn't the product of that spawning be considered wild?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I gonna bet the males are all clipped &lt;groan&gt;.

Brion

[drhall99]

Cosmo,

I agree that something needs to be done at Bonneville dam to deter the Sealions I just don't agree that lethal methods need to be used. ODFW hasn't even tried the sound emmitters, yet. And as far as the rest of the river goes, I believe that there is no problem.

D.

[ 05-30-2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: drhall99 ]

[drhall99]

Brion,

I forgot that spawning sailors are considered an introduction of a non-native species which means no size or bag limit. Open season. I wonder if this include Californian transplants [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] .

D.

[Hawgs n Harleys]

Skien,
that's a cool boat! Go ahead just try to anchor too close, make my day!


drhall,
some days this spring anchored near St.Helens there were at least 6 Sealions roaming in sight of our boat. If you can see that many from one spot, adds up to alot of them over the length of the river. Yes, obviously most damage is done at the dam where the fish have nowhere to run. In my opinion with that large of a Sealion population it is becoming a problem at more than just Bonneville. -Steve

[BrionLutz]

Hawgs,

If you can see that many from one spot, adds up to alot of them [sealions] over the length of the river.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Nope...like the salmon they are in a few spots and not in others. Sea lions are pretty smart and funny (Labs with flippers) and hang out where the fish are versus where they aren't.

Sea lion population, like the salmon, are a fraction of their historic levels. Key to it all is more salmon not fewer sea lions, cormorants, fishermen etc.

Be nice to see fishermen as worked up over fewer dams, forest preservation and other hardcore salmon restoration issues.

If folks are really concerned about salmon, that's where to invest their angst and efforts.

I always figure if the sea lions are around so are the salmon. What is weird is that during March and April, the sea lions were up near Oregon City munching salmon. Now with over 1,000 salmon a day cruising up the Willamette, no sea lions.

What's with that?

Brion