It's your river next!

[The Steelheader]

I posted earlier about the closure of the Upper Columbia and Methow rivers in Eastern Washington, not a response from anyone but one person. Seriously everyone, if fisherman don't come to the aid of others and fight for the right to have a season that has the best run in 15 years we are all going down. It is your river next, just sit back and not do anything about it.

[ 12-28-2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Pete ]

[Full Freezer]

Why were they closing it?

I had heard they had good escapement
?

[The Steelheader]

They have an "agreement" with a couple federal agencies that states when mortality rates of wild fish released reaches 2% of the run they close down the fishery. They say that " we are nearing this threshold so we are shutting down the fishery."

Nobody is fishing this river right now except me, every day. Absolutely no pressure on these fish in this area, just something to show that WDFW is "doing something." This after the fact that catching hatchery reared steelhead is good for the wild population, we have had the best run in 15 years, and they have admitted to not clipping a majority of the hatchery run fish. So, it us just the WDFW rearing it's ugly head and closing a fishery that is thriving. Not to mention I am the only boat out on the water every day of the week from Wells dam to Chief Joseph Dam. I have never been involved in an "on the water" survey or creel check. These guys are just trying to show people that they are doing something to save steelhead. I'd like to see them close a river on the coast and see what kind of reaction they get where fisherman are 10 feet away from each other and the fish have to dodge line just to make it upstream. Not criticizing you guys on the coast just wish I had your fishing! Tax dollars and revenue at work. Just stick it to the guys who won't do anything on the east side.

[rob allen]

The steelheader they do that to us every spring with the chinook season. I'll probably make you mad in saying this but oh well. Afterthe first of the year there is no sport in targeting summer run steelhead on east side streams!. All the rivers should be closed to steelhead fishing Dec 31 regardless of the health of the run..

[corkyking]

WDFW:

Action: Close the mainstem Columbia River above Rocky Reach Dam and the Methow River to the fishing for steelhead
Effective date: Closes one (1) hour after sunset on December 21, 2003
Species affected: Steelhead
Location:
Columbia River from Rocky Reach Dam upstream to Chief Joseph Dam.
Methow River from the mouth (Highway 97 bridge) upstream.
Reason for action: The cumulative wild steelhead impacts allowed under the NOAA ESA Permit, which allowed these two fisheries, are anticipated to be reached by this date.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Give me an idea of what you think a protest email should say and I will be happy to back you on this. I know that that stretch of river is underused.

I have observed for years now that WDFW bases their decisions on less than science and more on convenience or a demonstration of power.

I wish that WDFW would close more of the rivers that have heavy use. It wouldn't be long before people got angry. Of course I said the same thing after the Boldt decision.

I'll never forget talking to an honest game cop one day who said that the indians and the commercial fishermen were organized and the sportsmen weren't. It's that simple.

WDFW has also made a huge deal of the supposed lack of oxygen in Hood Canal. Closed it off to bottom fishing and squid due to those dangerously low levels. It's curious that they didn't close it to salmon fishing. Could it be that they are trying to declare an emergency affecting those dozen or so squidders without making a bunch of salmon fishermen mad?

Stay tuned for the Hood Canal emergency closure.

[TheRogue]

Originally posted by rob allen:
The steelheader they do that to us every spring with the chinook season. I'll probably make you mad in saying this but oh well. Afterthe first of the year there is no sport in targeting summer run steelhead on east side streams!. All the rivers should be closed to steelhead fishing Dec 31 regardless of the health of the run..

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">"there is no sport?"

Classic Rob Allen reply. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

Sad....

TR

[rob allen]

rogue it's just my opinion that it's unsportsman like to target old summer fish after the end of november really but i say the end of the year to be generous.. just my opinion.. I am sorry if i don't think the sport should dumb down it's ethics to the least common denominator.

[ 12-23-2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: rob allen ]

[The Steelheader]

Rob Allen,

You obviously have never been out of Vancouver, you are close to Olympia right? Figures. Good luck on your super steelhead in the summer.

As for no sport in my fishing think about this. Your summer run has fish stacked up on each other with 75 people every 100 yards with every kind of line known to man in the water, especially on the west side. Why don't you just use a gill net, it does about the same thing? I know I used to live there. I read a post on ifish about how many steelhead have you caught so far. Some people say 20 a day! Are you kidding me? A great day here is 4 to 5 fish. Write to Salmon Trout Steelheader and tell them that, or Washington fishing and hunting they would love to hear a liberal point of view.

Winter steelheading is for the hearty angler, whereas I have to look for them. They have gone different ways you know, not like your fish you so "sportingly" catch right out of the ocean along with 400 of your buddies stacked up in the river.

As for our "streams" the last time I checked the Columbia river was pretty big. And oh yeah, the Methow is pretty big too. I guess that creek in back of your house has you seeing things.

Another issue of I'm right and your wrong, and the West side is better than the east, and you are a better "sport" than I. Come on over to the eastside my friend and I will take you fishing. If you think there is no sport in what we do, and you can hack the 20 degree weather, come on over and join me for an 8 hour day. I am sure you will change your tune.

As for the closure, people who aren't diehards don't care. Your fishing requires 80 degree days and perfect conditions. You couldn't hack it here and are better served exactly where you are. Good luck super steelhead sport!

[The Steelheader]

Corkyking,

I will sit down and think about what to say.

You are exactly right about their show of a demonstration of power and look what we are doing to save the world. How this fishery can be closed blows my mind and makes no sense. I am the only fisherman on this stretch of Columbia, and am out there every day. All the other guys are up behind Chief Joseph letting triploids swallow powerbait and putting them in a cooler.

Maybe this is what Rob Allen would call sporting?

I appreciate the help here, someone who truly cares about their freedom to do the things they love and enjoy. Maybe Rob Allen's creek will close and he will get on the wagon some day too.

Rob do you work for fish and wildlife or are you just a lobbyist?

[ 12-23-2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: The Steelheader ]

[Flatfish]

Rob,

only you can be so funny.

Mark and the dog.

[Backlash2]

What is it with this guy? All of Rob's yabbering about saving genetically pure strains of wild fish, of which there are probably none left, and then he says that fishing for all steelhead should cease on the eastside on Dec. 31st. I have said this to him I don't know how many times, and he never has a reply, but here it is one more time......THEY ARE HATCHERY FISH!!! Why do you think people shouldn't fish for and harvest HATCHERY FISH??? So what if they don't fight as well in February. So what if they cut white and don't eat well. THEY ARE HATCHERY FISH!!!! Should we leave all of them in the river to increase the mixing with wild(and I use this term loosely) spawning fish??

Asmunch says what? That's what I thought, Rob...

[Bounty Hunter]

The Steelheader:

I am a new resident to WA and not very impressed with the WDFW on several fronts.

I would be happy to send a letter on your behalf too. Include me on your distribution list when you decide how we should respond to this. To be honest, I am not familiar with the issue, but I am always happy to see another hatchery fish on the bank.

Wade

[Irie1]

Like fishing closures and R A, they just won't go away! Please R A do respond!

[img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img]

[straightweave]

Steeleheader, keep the faith.

It is common knowledge that the fish in the metthow are not wild fish, at least not the steelehead. There still remains some genetically pure coho in that river that run up into the lost river, but they are few and far between.

Why they would close down the fishery is anybody's guess. The biologist that I spoke to that works on the metthow river said he is also stumped. The state claims that the resource has met it's quota. He just laughs. His research, and the research of others, shows that the over abundance of hatchery fish deletes the resource for the very, very few wild strain fish that may actually exist in the river, mainly the coho.


If the coho run up the river and spawn, and the hatchery steelehead come in behind them, they eat the eggs, right? So by not reducing the take on hatchery fish, are they then reducing the possible number of coho that may actually return to the river due to predation? Maybe I'll have to ask the biologist that question.

He also told me that the fish that they were catching were pretty bright and that he had no problems w/ the color of the fillets. Not coastal river bright, of course, but he said that they were healthy and tasty nonetheless.

tight lines

[Southfork]

Sounds like a bad draft of the Idaho Sockeye story..

[rob allen]

not going to get uin a fight over this let me put it this way you can have thoes skanky old double red striped ready to spawn fish. I think targeting them when they are dark is sportsman like. but go ahead have at them I don't care if hooking a few fish is the most important thing to you then feel free. as for myself I'll go on the rivers people call crowded and come home after having not shared a run with anyone and enjoy myself. Your thinking that coastal rivers are crowded shows your ignorance..

[img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[Gus Orviston]

So guys, what is with the ad hominen response to Rob's statement. Having a debate is one thing, but targettign rob personally isn't what this web is about and is not supported by the AUP. Heck I will even say,, isn't it Christmas? Didn't we all just go through this on LIG? :blush:

The Steelheader, I am sure you will get your support here you want/need by laying out your request, and then supporting your arguement in favor rebuting Rob's opinions and others. I can't say my heart is bleeding for you at the moment, and after reading your 8:49PM responsed as it doesn't earn my respect. Much of it is sarcastic In My Opinion, and Rob, nor other west coast fisherman are not deserving of it. You may wish to try a different rebuttle. Just my opinion and a a little advise.

Rob started with a valid supposition to why the fishery should close at this time, I see hints data saying otherwise. I would like to see what you come back with for letter.

gus

[The Steelheader]

Gus,

In no way am I trying to badmouth west coast fisherman.

I live on the East side others on the West. I know how many fisherman fish these coastal rivers and if you were shut down and fished everyday you would be upset too. I know fish are fantastic right out of the ocean, but to say there is no sport in catching a winter steelhead you are dead wrong. I could have said the words Rob Allen called me and said you were ignorant but I won't stoop to that level. You can support him as much as you want and say that I am sarcastic, it was meant to be that way. In order to get anywhere you have to take a stand on an issue and I will not water down what I think or believe here. I will not try to accomodate people who have no clue as to how and why a fishery should be shut down and then tell me I am ignorant and am "dumbing down" the ethics of a sport. You have no clue Rob and those who follow you the same.

As for a valid supposition Gus, Rob said that all steelheading should be closed after November, as he said in his second post replying to corkyking. Not a valid supposition. There is no proof that this fishery is in trouble, never has been. This is the fishery that is expendable to show America that WDFW is working to improve the state of fishing in Washington. As I said before, if a fishery or river is shut down on the West side it wouldn't be this easy. We have no voice therefore we are expendable. This always has been a healthy run, never in jeopardy. I worked with a hatchery here 6 years ago and they said the steelhead has never been in endangered status. The Coho is what they said needed help.

I also believe he said something about "dumbing down the ethics of fishing." My ethics are nothing to be pointing fingers at. Like I said, there are way more fisherman in West coast rivers than are here.

I apologize to all West coast fisherman, you have it good. I am happy for your rights to fish. Mine is being taken away.

As for sarcastic, Rob put it this way. "You can have those double red striped skanky ready to spawn fish." I will never back down from people who have no clue as to why things are and why decisions are made to ruin the rights of individuals just because they can. This ruling is a terrible problem here and like I said in my title when it happens to your river you will say otherwise.

Obviously Rob has ruffled some feathers here before and I will not let him run over me, the WDFW has done that already and I won't let it happen again.

I love fishing for double red striped skanky ready to spawn steelhead who help me dumb down my fishing ethics. And when the politically correct police come to get me I will still be here.

Thanks for the support guys.

[ 12-26-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: The Steelheader ]

[rob allen]

Steelheader.
1. you do not have the "right to fish" you have the privledge of fishing

2. you are not winter steelhead fishing. you are summer steelhead fishing in the winter there is a huge difference.

3 my argument had nothing to do with the health of the fishery.

4 tagreting bright fish has been a ethical tradition of west coast steelheaders for decades. As has been leaving dark ones alone.

5. what i said wasn't sarcastic thoes fish are dark and skanky..

[Metal Manipulator]

These fish don't even arrive until winter. These are a different breed of fish which have to be healthier than coast fish just to make the travel. When the arrive they are still in fantastic shape. Actually the best fish are caught in the ocean, which does not negate the fish caught in rivers. None the less they all change immediately once entering fresh water. Again these upper tributary fish are in good shape well into march so we can all get off of our soapboxes. By the way I grew up in eastern Oregon. last year when I visited I made the five mile hike from cow creek on the Imnaha river to the mouth on the snake river. It was beautiful and saw ten Bighorn and one Mountain Goat. At the mouth I caught a eight pound steelhead that put my reel to the test. I was pumped to land and quickly release, yet pooped after walking back out. Oh I wore out my son in-law who is in the air force. and not even thirty yet.

[rob allen]

Please post some pics of the fish you catch this march when they are about to spawn...

[The Steelheader]

Another one of these guys, you are unbelievable Rob. Ok as long as we are going to be petty, start spelling things right and start capitalizing the beginnings of your points please.

Number One: # 1. I have the right to fish. I do not live in a communist society, although it looks more and more like that every day. This priveledge stuff is what guys like you talk about behind your microphones while you lie about everything to get your own way.

Number Two: # 2. Look at what wet fly has to say. But you will disagree because you are better than I am. And a much better sportsman.

Number Three: # 3. Your quote: " All the rivers should be closed to steelhead fishing Dec 31 regardless of the health of the run.. " This is part of your argument, check out what you say before you start numbering your complaints. Old skanky fish you say, it is unethical to target them and unsportsmanlike regardless of the health of the run. I would say this is your main point. So Rob, it is part of your argument. Actually the argument.

Number Four: #4. Your fourth complaint: " 4 tagreting bright fish has been a ethical tradition of west coast steelheaders for decades. As has been leaving dark ones alone."

Ok, it is targeting not tagreting and it is an ethical not a ethical. I didn't realize that people like you were such tremendous fishermen to only go after those bright fish and not have the old ones bite! Unreal! You are amazing and a much better fisherman than I.

Number Five: #5. Some of these fish are dark, but the majority are very nice fish. Think about it.... if I was as good a fisherman as you I could avoid these old fish and only go after the good ones. You need to post something about how to do this it would be a hot topic.

And finally...

I apologize to everyone else for this post turning into a personal thing with Rob and me, didn't mean for it too. I did not start this, but will finish it.

[The Steelheader]

Rob I will. I don't know how because I cannot fish for them anymore, this is my point, but I will.

Why do you want to see a fish about ready to spawn? That is 2 months away from now, I won't be around then. They look a little different then than they do now. I don't know what you are trying to prove to me here.

Oh yeah check out the post about crowded rivers on the coast. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks this.

[ 12-26-2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: The Steelheader ]

[rob allen]

Good grief steelheader

Point 1. I have the RIGHT to CapitaLize ans Mis Spel andything i want It's my right!!! Look in your drivers handbook there is a paort where it states that driving is a pribledge not a right. Fishing is the same way. Ypu do not have the Right to fish you have the Privledge of fishing.
I believe that you'll find that as a fact of law no mayyer what your angry emotions tell you.

Roint 2. I made no judgments about anyone neing better than anyone else and if you had read anything i have ever written you could not think that I believe that.

Point 3 Keep things in context and you'll understand them better the context of my statment is that east side rivers that have SUMMER runs should be closed early to keep people from harassing fish that have been in fresh water for months. This is an ethical issue not a biological one and has nothing to do with the health of a run of fish just as i have always said.

point 4 again you ignored my point and went off on some tangent. there is a difference between targeting dark fish than ocassionally catching one. Point of fact ALL summer fish are dark this time of year. and will be spawning Feb- May. These fish are skanky that time of year and the rivers should be closed. However if you inadvertanly catch one while targeting chrome winter runs thats different that dargeting old summer runs.

Point 5 BS prove it. all the pics i have ever seen have been of very dark fish very near to spawning.. show me some pics of nice chome sides or even one with some peal pink on the cheek. yo won't be able to because they are all red and green. Just like on the Ronde, clearwater snake and John Day.


Steelheader no need to worry about what other people think, They know we are just a couple of idiots having an argument :grin:

[ 12-27-2003, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: rob allen ]

[bribri76]

Hey rob allen
Sounds like your a rookie fisherman. A fish is a fish when your out for a good fight. Some times a dark fish will fight better than a bright fish. Those fish that go to the snake river sometimes have just as good meat as a bright one. Its the sport where after. Its not always about the meat.

[TonTo]

I for one belive I have a RIGHT to fish that will not be infringed upon.
T Steelheader I agree with your point we can't all be on the west side all the time,so keep up the good work and bank those hatchery fish,thats why they're in the system afterall.
A fish is a fish and a trophy is in the eye of the beholder.

The fish in the upper Columbia drainage are not like the lower river fish and don't start to break down as soon as the fish in the lower river. They are genetically designed to swim 100’s of miles before they spawn and then have to be in good enough shape to survive the long trip back to saltwater, not like the lower river fish that can drift back to the ocean and still survive. It looks like these fish are “hatery” (that's "hatchery" for those of us that CAN spell) and it shouldn’t mater if they are caught and killed. Just because one is arrogant or such a poor fisherman that they feel they have to criticize someone for harvesting fish that aren’t “Chromers” doesn’t mean that they are killing “dark and skanky” spawned out fish. I feel that salmon shouldn't be harassed once they get into fresh water, so how would you like it if I started on you about YOUR "unethical behavior" when you are harassing spawning salmon?


As for the crack “dumb down it's ethics”, get real Rob, you are the one that is constantly wining about how someone can catch fish when you can't [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] . It has nothing to do with ‘ethics” it’s about geography and where one lives.

If you look into the history of the founding of our country and English history you will see that there is several cases where “The Kings Deer” is mentioned. WE DO HAVE THE RIGHT to harvest the resources of OUR country.

[bribri76]

Hey rob
Are you chicken to come back in here.

[rob allen]

chicken? no just lost interest..

[GutshotApe]

In my opinion, from an "ethical" standpoint, there is really no difference where or when a fish is caught & killed if it hasn't spawned yet. The result is the same...one less spawner. If its a hatchery fish it exists to be caught & killed whether chrome bright or dark as an old boot.

Some would say the most ethical thing to do with wild fish, if you want to kill it, would be to wait until after it has spawned...then whack it on the head. Spawners aren't as tasty as a fresh-run fish? Maybe so...but they're better than nothing...probably better than a cheap can of sardines.

[Mad Mikey]

Oooh, this is just starting to get fun!!!

Keta just made a very good point about the difference between the Summer and Winter Strain fish.
What he did not add was that these fish are also in VEERRY cold water and they Winter well.
Having come from the Eastside myself years ago it took me a few years to figure out these differences between the strains of fish.

I have many old classmates and family friends who fish the NE OR streams well into the new year. Even I was skeptical about the condition of the fish they were catching when I saw pix. I even gave some of them a bit of a razzing, albeit tongue in cheek.

What I DID notice though was that the meat of many of these fish while not crimson was excellent table fare, much better than any trout you might get there in the Summer IMO. I'll admit that some of those fish get pretty ugly looking but if you go down to Boggans' sometime and check out the pix on the wall there are some pretty fine looking fish caught there in the Winter.

Rob, I ain't gonna beat on you over this one but you just don't get it. Go live there for a lengthy period of time and I bet you will find yourself out there fishing too, because for most fishermen in E OR and WA it is the ONLY game in town.

If you ever do visit, go into the Elgin tavern on a Saturday night and try to sway the locals with your opinion. I'm sure you would get some interesting feedback... [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

On the Westside we are blessed with so many different streams and runs I think we might be a little spoiled and don't even realize it. I'm glad that I've lived on both sides of the state and have a good grip on the various attitudes from both.

If you don't ski or duck hunt and you only have a choice of the bowling alley or tangling with a big fish maybe you would understand.

It's open, it's legal and the Eastsiders only get a fraction of the window of time to pursue steelhead, fish that THEY have also paid for.

Two things about targeting "spawners", with respect to protecting what questionable strains of wild fish that are left over there I would think you might be first in line to be yanking those old hatchery boots off the gravel beds. :tongue: :grin:

AND, with repsect to East vs. West, where do most if not ALL of the stories of fish harrasment on redds usually originate???

The Eastsiders are a better group of folk than you give them credit for.

[The Steelheader]

Rob,

Sounds like I am not the only one here who knows the rights of an individual. FYI... this is not the same thing as reading your drivers handbook, what a statement. Do we have the right to bear arms or the priveledge? I'll begin to look up some of our rights and post them here for your sake. Listen to some of the others on this post, I am not the Lone Ranger anymore. Others are obviously tired of your dialogue too.

Keta, Mad Mikey, well said.