Little South Fork Kilchis Slide

ODF-Forestry · 12-20-2003, 04:01 PM

Hello, this is Mark Labhart Distrcit Forester for the Oregon Dept. of Forestry in Tillamook. I understand the Little South Fork Kilchis River Slide has generated some interest from fishers on this site. I thought I would post some information in the hopes that it would provide some background on the slide from my point of view. It's pretty long so please keep reading because it may provide some answers to your questions. Feel free to call me at work if you would like to discuss the matter 503-842-2545. Please feel free to pass this information on if you wish

What happened?
Sometime during the second weekend of Dec. a large slide originated on ODF property. Estimated volume that moved is 15,000 to 30,000 cubic yds. of material. A dump truck holds about 10 cubic yds. Estimated volume of material that entered the Little South Fork of the Kilchis River is 300 - 800 cubic yds of material.

Why did it happen?
Comments from Jason Hinkle, ODF's Geotechnical Assistant who visitied the site.
- The landslide was a large deep-seated rapid failure.
- Signs of past failures are visible adjacent to the recent slide and across the slope.
- The slope has clearly had a history of instability that has been ongoing for probably thousands of years.
- The landslide was most likely triggered by a combination of rainfall and snowmelt (rain on snow event).
- There are numerous old catroads from salvage logging in the 1950's that cross the slide, but they did not appear to be tied to the casue of the slide.
- The landslide was much larger and deeper than landslids that might typically be attributed to timber harvest activities.

What about the forestry operation in the area?
ODF did have an alder sale on the location of the slide in 1997. The ODF timber sale removed the alder and left the Douglas-fir, hemlock, spruce and cedar. ODF then replanted under the remaining conifer with tree seedlings to begin to develop a desired future condition of more complex forest i.e. different age classes of trees and species.

What are the effects on fish?
ODF&W Fish Habitat Biologist Dave Plawman provide the following comments.
Short-term impacts
The slide primarily affects chinook redds in the area adjacent to and immediately downstream of the slide. Some impacts to juvenile coho, steelhead and cutthroat juvenilles adjacent and immediately downstream of the slide. There is potential sedimentation of chinook and chum redds downstream. There is potential for continued sedimentation throughout the winter until the slide stabilizes. This area is not a major wild coho spawning ground and coho have just begun spawning so there is probably little direct impact to their redds. Wild steelhead have not begun spawning.

Long-term impacts
There is potential for additional sliding. On the positive side, the slide is providing gravel, large wood and boulders and has the potential to improve instream habitat over the long term. (end of Plawman's comments)

It will be interesting to monitor the potential impacts from this slide. We have a rare opportunity because for the last six yrs. ODF&W has had a smolt outmigration trap on the Little South Fork of the Kilchis. We will monitor the stream in 2004 and beyond and determine the impacts (if any) from the slide. In 2003, about 45,000 wild coho and 41,000 wild chinook outmigrated past the trap.

What are ODF's plans to reapir the slide?
Our plans are to assess both short-term and long-term fixes. We are seeking advice from ODF&W and our geotechnical engineer. A short-term fix might have us doing something right away and a long-term fix might have us waiting until next summer. We want to make sure that whatever we do in the short run, it won't adversely impact fish in the long term.

What have you done so far?
At 6:00 a.m. Dec. 15th we sent out nine employees to cover some of the site with straw mulch. We hired a private contractor with an engine-powered straw mulcher blower to spread more straw. We also brought in a South Fork Inmate work crew to spread more straw.

Hopefully, I provided some answers to questions you may have wondered about. Again, please feel free to call me if you wish.

Mark Labhart
Distrcit Forester

Kruechief · 12-20-2003, 04:05 PM

Welcome aboard Mark! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Where's your fishing story?

Krue

GutshotApe · 12-20-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ODF-Forestry:
We will monitor the stream in 2004 and beyond and determine the impacts (if any) from the slide. In 2003, about 45,000 wild coho and 41,000 wild chinook outmigrated past the trap.

Wow!! That's a lot of smolts! :shocked:

blacktail · 12-20-2003, 04:17 PM

Thanks Mark.

Hopefully you won't get blasted from the resident anti-logging group here since your information doesn't support their thoughts.

Mike

First Light Bite · 12-20-2003, 04:27 PM

Very informative post.
Thanks

freespool · 12-20-2003, 06:22 PM

So Mark what your saying is the removal of all the alder on that steep slope had no effect on the slide? Or why was any logging allowed on a known slide area? Looks like a very steep slope.

salmon hugger

BUGLEMAN · 12-20-2003, 07:58 PM

Blacktail, the issue is logging of slide prone slopes. To me it appears from the picture that I saw, that at least 90% of the stems on that slope were cut. (that is purely a guess) But, I would classify that intense of a logging operation to be more of a clearcut than a thinning.

Hello Mr Hinkle thanks for your comments. My response, as you have described the opinion of one geotechnical assistant hired by ODF is as follows. That same assistant has been paid to represent the ODF opinion regarding the slide. Why didn't a professional geologist from ODF give an assement? Someone who has a professional stake in that assement.

The most relevant facts that refute your assistants opinion is, that in 1995 and more specifically in 1996, the year before the site was nearly clearcut, there was a much more significant snowpack and a 2 day rain fall of at least 7 inches over the Tillamook state forest. The event last week was precipitated by minimal snowpack and about 4 inches of rain in 2 days as recorded by doppler radar in Portland, OR.

From these facts I would say that cutting the trees off that slide prone slope caused it to fail.

It is time to put the management of Tillamook State Forests in the hands of scientists and where the opinions of assistants and non-professionals bears little weight and ensure that all the users of our public resource are represented.

Protect your forest from greedy county managers and corporate timber companies. Support and vote for the 50/50 plan.

[ 12-20-2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: BUGLEMAN ]

anger management · 12-20-2003, 08:39 PM

Well said bugleman [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] . Why is logging alowed on slopes above streams and rivers.It is pretty common sense when you remove vegatation like trees from a hillside what is going to hold the soil in place nothing. This is how erosion happens. :grin:

Point-of-Sale Clerk · 12-20-2003, 09:16 PM

Mr. Labhart

As per the Joint Interim Task Force On Landslides and Public Safety
http://www.leg.state.or.us/comm/commsrvs/landslid2.pdf

Tour of Landslide Sites along the Wilson River�
�The task force drove up Oregon Highway 6 along the Wilson River to view various
landslide sites. Stops included the Mills Bridge landslide which was attributable to
numerous violations of the Forest Practices Act; the Trailer House slide of 1996 resulting
from a thirteen year old timber stand earth flow; the Wilson River slide, approximately
seven miles east of Tillamook, which was a result of the 1964 flood (material deposited
forty feet high on Highway 6); and an old growth landslide which occurred during the
1996 flood. The task force received technical explanations of slide causes from Mr. Mark
Labhart and Mr. Keith Mills, also of ODF, at each slide site.�

�numerous violations of the Forest Practices Act�? And you still could not protect the public or the indigenous salmonids from being impacted by this?

As to the Little South Fork of the Kilchis�
If this area is geologically susceptible to slides have you classified it as a high risk site as per OAR 629-600-100(28)?

If it is a high risk site what special provisions did you make as part of the alder sale in 1997?

What other areas on the coast range had large slides at the same time as this Snow/rain event on the Kilchis?

Welcome to Ifish,

you must have real guts to put it out there like that

Regards
*** Clerk

GutshotApe · 12-20-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by anger management:
Why is logging alowed on slopes above streams and rivers.It is pretty common sense when you remove vegatation like trees from a hillside what is going to hold the soil in place nothing. This is how erosion happens. :grin:

There may be some truth to what you say...relative to extremely steep slopes and shallow surface slides. This case sounds like a deep, rotational failure...not the type of event normally triggered by removal of trees (and in this case, only some of the trees). The weight of the material involved in a deep, rotational slide like this one is tremendous...millions of pounds. It seems unlikely that shallow tree roots could have held back such a heavy load...and there was the added weight of water from rainfall, snowmelt and the continual input from a spring (as I understand it) near the top of the slide.

Here are excerpts from "Atlas of Oregon", 2nd edition, UofO Press, 2001...section on landslides:

Quote:

Landslides are common in Western Oregon as a result of favorable conditions - steep slopes and high rainfall. Water increases the weight of porous materials, and lubricates both soil and rock particles and fracture planes, increasing the potential for movement. Slides are generally seasonal; rare during the dry summer and fall months, common in winter and spring. Slide conditions may develop over long periods of time, but there is a variety of typical triggering events. These include undercutting of steep slopes by steam erosion or by road building......

The role of earthquakes as a triggering mechanism is not well understood but is certainly important. Continuous shaking during an earthquake may cause liquefaction of clay soils, a condition in which even very slight slopes can flow, and steep slopes fail spectacularly. Slides commonly involve more horizontal movement than vertical drop.........

A 50-year record of small rapid landslides (as distinguished from gradual earth movement) in the USFS's HJ Andrews Experimental Forest reveals high frequency in areas of steep slopes, clay-rich soils and rapid snowmelt.....Landslides have varied ecological effects, disturbing riparian ecosystems but also creating complex stream habitats.

Slides have been happening in the Coast Range for eons. All of the valleys and steep canyons are the result of slide after slide after slide since the ancient seabed was uplifted during the Pliestocene epoch beginning ~2 million years ago. Rapid erosion and downcutting by rivers continues to the present time.

[ 12-21-2003, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

SSPey · 12-20-2003, 09:58 PM

just to clarify the facts: The Coast Range is less than 5 million years old, most of it less than 1 million years old, even though it is formed from Miocene and Eocene rocks. A small detail, but facts is facts.

The big question remains: Why is ODF logging in areas that are particularly prone to landslides?

GutshotApe · 12-20-2003, 10:23 PM

Yup...facts is facts. I'm not a geologist, just a dumb forester...but I can read...sort of.

Here's a chart from Geology of Oregon by Ewart Baldwin et al., 4th edition, 1992,...showing the age of various Coast Range formations. If I read it correctly, the marine terraces and fluvial deposits (the flats & benches along the coastline) are less than 2 million years old. But other formations...the hills...are much older. Or am I wrong again?

The numbers in the narrow column 2nd from the left indicate millions of years before present time.

[ 12-21-2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

SSPey · 12-21-2003, 04:01 AM

sorry, still wrong, but there is always time to learn.

That chart only shows the age of the rocks themselves, not the mountains that formed from them. The rocks are older than the mountains because the rocks were formed on the sea floor many many millions of years before they were uplifted into mountains.

If you read the text of Orr and Orr (another Geology of Oregon book) you will see what I mean. My copy is at work so I can't provide page numbers right now.

[ 12-21-2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: floatnfish ]

GutshotApe · 12-21-2003, 06:31 AM

OK...you got me this time :blush: and I'll admit it. (If you haven't already done so, go back and check my post about "silt" on the other thread...I edited it to make it more "right"

).

The ages of the Coast Range rocks are up to ~66 million years but the uplift of the range is much younger.

In discussing the Pliocene in the Coast Range section, Baldwin et al. say "...this was a time when the area was above sea level and the coastline lay approximately in its present position...." The Pliocene ended a little over 2 million years ago. Then, during the Pleistocene, the major uplift began.

So I need reading glasses...But my point remains unchanged...the Coast Range has been subjected to extensive erosional processes which created the valleys...and part of the material eroded forms the beach sands, the rest lies offshore on the continental slope and beyond.

The reference I referred to as Baldwin et al. is more properly called Orr, Orr & Baldwin. The first editions of the book were by Baldwin, alone, but in the 4th edition, which contains new information regarding plate tectonics, the Orrs & Baldwin apparently rewrote much of the earlier editions.

[ 12-21-2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

crabbait · 12-21-2003, 06:51 AM

Thank you GSA and fnf for the enlightenment. Very interesting stuff. Reminds me of just how much I don't know.

I am glad that ODF is looking closely at this event and that there may be some good news in terms of long term habitat enhancement from the deposited gravel, boulders and large wood.

I also question the advisability of commercial operations on steep slopes with known slide histories directly adjacent to fish bearing streams. Hopefully, we can minimize the negative impact of this slide event and learn from it so that the inevitable natural slides are not compounded by slides that we generate.

Metal Manipulator · 12-21-2003, 09:49 AM

Thanks ODF Forestry, this is the kind of info that I really enjoy. As far as the nay-sayers I'm am getting better at ignoring them. I hope they don't stop you from writing these facts about our public lands. I for one am happy with the progress that the forest industies have made. I hope the Timber industies can make a come back and give oregon the money and jobs that occur from our Renewable recources.

Thanks Robin
And by the way I have been a citizen of oregon all my life with no connection to the timber industies.

weekend warrior · 12-21-2003, 04:37 PM

Mark, thanks for coming on here and letting us know were ODF&W stands with this and what you guys are doing to lessen the impact. This has been a highly talked about subject since the Kilchis is such a beautiful stream and clears so quickly.

For everyone who disagrees with what Mark has to say, as far as what caused this etc.... If it's negative and your just saying he's wrong and that there surveyor was partial and such. Keep it to yourself. Everyone has had questions about this and wanted some answers and what preventative measures are being taken. Then he gives some answers and people critize him(ODF&W). I don't agree with everything ODF&W does but this is the closest thing your going to get to answers and being able to give suggestions since he was nice enough to leave his #.

He could of just not said anything and then we would all be left guessing and pointing fingers.

How about thanking the guy for trying to help out and keep us(fishermen) informed and keep your negative comments to yourself.
Some of us appreciate what he had to say.

Later Geoff

freespool · 12-21-2003, 05:09 PM

Hey Mark, I'am still waiting for you to answer my question. Why in the world would they be logging a known slide area? Buddy, we can see the stumps in the picture. If this is a negative comment,so be it!I want answers. Is this a typical occurance? Or did this just slip through the cracks? The way I see it, this is why we need to start thinking about doing things that affect fish,not logging.

salmon hugger

[ 12-21-2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: freespool ]

GutshotApe · 12-21-2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freespool:
Hey Mark, I'am still waiting for you to answer my question. Why in the world would they be logging a known slide area? Buddy, we can see the stumps in the picture.

I'm certainly not speaking for Mark or ODF...but a good answer might be:

We identified this slope as a potential slide area based on evidence of past slides...and since it was possible that it would slide again some day, we removed the alder trees, left the conifers and planted more conifers in the hope that if/when the slope failed again there would be nothing but large fir & cedar logs that would enter the river as Large Woody Debris. As we know, alder do not make good LWD because they rot away in just 2 or 3 years. And, since the slide appears to be a deeply-seated, rotational example of mass wasting, we do not believe the alder removal made any difference in timing of the slide.

How's that?

Jerry Dove · 12-21-2003, 06:09 PM

Thanks Mark. We are inviting all ifishers to the STEP Conference in March. We will be having a lot of round tables with folks like your self, Lindsey Ball director or ODFW , Jim Martin retired ODFW director of fisheries, Bill Monroe and many others. Hope folks show up, ask questions and maybe learn something. Also hope folks will bring there thought and ideas and come with an open mind. Thanks again. Jerry

fishindogs · 12-21-2003, 06:19 PM

GSA
That seems to be a very good answer to why cutting the alder could make sense. But, if this is the actual case, what was the ODF plan for the area once the remaining trees grew to harvest size. Would they have been cut, or allowed to grow and continue to stabilize the slope?

I'm sure some ODF forester is keeping track of the plan for all the trees on this (and other) known slide areas, and I would be interested in knowing what measures are taken to reduce the risk of slides.

I greatly appreciate expert forester/logger input and do not mean to be negative. I am simply curious as to how this area (and other slide prone areas) are being managed.

freespool · 12-21-2003, 08:02 PM

GSA,once the slope was determined unstable would changing cover vegitation be prudent? Why would switching from an established cover of alder,in favor of cutting the alder then planting seedlings conifers as a replacement be a good idea? Given the lag time for growth of the conifers. Hey nice to see you back posting.

salmon hugger

GL2 · 12-21-2003, 09:29 PM

For all the fishing I've done & learned I've been real ignorant to thease foresty issuse's.
It's a pleasure to read thease two threads and have my eyes opened, so to speak.
A lot of people have educated themselves about thease issuses. Of course that doesn't make them experts.
But a few people have shown a wealth of information. They are experpts in thier respecvtive fields. GSA & fnf come have had a classic battle of the minds, and kept it pretty cival. Other's have impressed me too with a grasp of the issue.
The one thing that seems to be a continuing theme, no matter what branch of govement a person bucks. Is the "we are professionals and we know whats best for you. We got it all under control, so don't worry. Trust us we work for you."

I personally feel that state agencies, don't admit fault. They will try to dis-credit oppisition.
Look @ SAIF!!
Look @ the Ashley Pond & Miranda Gaddis case. The state dropped the ball and had a million excuses. I think the case workers even got there jobs back. The point is the state " promotes damage control ."
The state can twist the truth to fit it's agenda.

It's time to face the facts. State agencies act & feel as they are above public critic & scrutiny.
They will always circle the wagons, in time of scrutiny. Why??
I feel it's lots of reasons.
1. Keep jobs & programs open, that there jobs revole around.
2. Try to keep from showing to be mistaken or wrong.
3. Cover up wrong doing. Need to preserve the cushy state job!
4. If the public see's mismangemnt then a agency could be gutted of it's adminastration.
5. Money!!! look at that idiot Niel Goldschmidt getting a $20,000 a mounth retainer. I wonder if Mrs. Keene ever got treated to a lunch or ect.. from old Niel...
You think in the past any ODF officials have ever gotten a meal or trip ect.. from someone bidding on or executing a contract???
How many reps & lobbiest does the logging industry have?? How long have thease relationships gone on??
Am I in bed with you, or are you in bed with me? Or are we all in bed together, but no one can ever know??

Has Mark Labhart ever been mistaken as a matter of public record??
How about Jason Hinkle??
Have they ever addmitted or been found to be mistaken in there professional conclusions??
Has ODF ever made a mistake in mangment of a active slide like this.
In reflection, was ODF mistaken in the mangement of this slide area??

In conclusion I'd like to see *** Clerks questions answerd.

It's pretty easy to droll out the party line, when you got the floor to yourself.
Some would call that hit & run PROPAGRANDA!!!!!

So I'm gonna freespool ya & see if you run or hunker on down. Cuz, I aint gonna let you take all my line that easy....

EDIT: No I'm not gonna fix the speloing!
Sorry ***

[ 12-23-2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: GL2 ]

freespool · 12-21-2003, 09:44 PM

Far out man,I can dig your vib. Keep on keepin on.

salmon hugger

HOGGEMIN · 12-21-2003, 10:24 PM

What some of you must rember there are shallow slides, and there are deep slides. Shallow slides could be caused by improper logging pracrices but might not be caused directly from these practices. In deep slides they are deeper than the root systems so weather there was logging or not thay will slide for this happens below the root systems for all the trees. Just look at a wind fall tree the roots are not really that deep just the tap root goes straight down. Alders have very poor root systems and would not have saved this area. Yes we need to protect the fishies but we need logging too. We don't need the people going on emotions to change law this is what the anti-hunters do (by the way they don't want you or I to fish eather). Look what the emotionalist did for bear& couger hunting. there are no none sloping land in the coast range and clear cuts bring better habitat for the deer & elk populations for in clear cuts there is feed in old growth there is nothing for deer or elk to eat. So there must be a combination of all to make it a happy ecosystem I think the 50/50 is too much. where I hunt near the nehalem and between the Salmonberry and miami rivers there has been a lot more deer and elk in the newer clear cut areas with no more slides as before the clearcuts. The bull to cow ratio has gone up alot.
Rember trees are a renewable resource. How many slides happned in 96 where there was no newer logging activites. There will always be slides only a small percentage would be stoped with NO LOGGING.

GOT2FISH · 12-21-2003, 10:49 PM

Ive been reading this and one thing comes to mind State Jobs Have to Suck. Think about how many pepole they have to keep happy. Theres the spotted owl,then the devoplers {I like my wood house} then the feds and Im sorry but yes the fishermen. I think when we look at all the parties they have to answer to,there doing a pretty good job. And yes you have some bad ones that do the side step but its no diffrenent in the private sector. Its kinda like calling all fishermen snaggers. Thanks for the info I for one learned something and appreciate the effort. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 05:54 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GOT2FISH:
[QB] Ive been reading this and one thing comes to mind State Jobs Have to Suck. Think about how many pepole they have to keep happy.

WHAT????????
Have you ever heard of PERS??
Thats the state employee retirement plan I would kill to have. Must be real rough to have all the clout the Public Employees Union has.
I remmber when they struck cuz, we wanted them to pay half or there yearly stipend toward PERS. They were upset they might have to put some of there own money into there personal retirment accountt. I'd sure like someone else paying into my retirment for me.

Will there be a reply, by the ODF to the questions in this thread. Or since they got to do a hit and run with there version of the events, will that be all we get.
It's my experaicne that the "state" will all of the sudden get real quite when people question it's actions.
So since ODF started this thread will they, be back to answer questions. Or do you gotta call the guy.
Sudden silcence would be suspect in my opinion.

EDIT: this slide looks really deep, it might not be directly relateed to the logging activity. But, we can never know for sure. Thats why we should't have logged it in the first place. We don't need ODF playing "maybe" with thier actions in the TSF. I thuoght there was a protacall for land like this. I belive *** Clerk made referance to this in his post.

[ 12-23-2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: GL2 ]

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 04:46 PM

ODF-Forestry,
Where are you??
You started this thread and then poof your gone.
What was your intention in starting this thread?
So far it looks like a hit and run to me.
I wonder how it looks to other people. It must be pretty convient to, drop your take and vanish.

What I meant by I was gonna freespool you was...
that given the chance, I figured you'd hunker down now. Sorta like a fish that thinks he's thrown the hook.
Of course this gives time to regroup, and get ready to put some pressure on the fish. So that fish feels safe "hunkerd down", but if it only knew.

How long can you hunker down and avoid thease questions, put forth by other ifishers?
Or did you never intend to anwser any questions.
I'd call you up and ask thease questions. Except I don't think I could tell eveyone your anwsers, and do your words justice.

So why not anwser with your own words?

BUGLEMAN · 12-22-2003, 04:56 PM

If this land was just waiting to slide, why log it. Why disturb the duff and leaf litter that can store water and release it latter. Why did this slide not let go in '96 when there was much more rain and snow melt and even larger storms to surcharge springs prior to the big runoff event? What is the state doing logging know slide areas? This sale was conducted during Weyehousers (argued) monopoly on the local alder market. This whole sale stinks.

The alder replacement argument, made previously, doesn't hold water. If the alder stand were left to mature it would eventually be succeded by conifers.

I don't care if the 50/50 plan is imperfect. We can't please every one but at least the plan would be a great improvement over the status quo. A higher level of performance is called for. The people of Oregon deserve to know the truth on this sale. I don't care if mistakes were made. Let's just learn from them.

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 05:09 PM

ODF-Forestry,
Thats another question for you.

This is starting to fit a pattern of behavior exhibited by state angencies.
See my previous post for a explanation...

EDIT:
I'm staring to think you started this thread as a "preemptive strike' againt any views oppisitte your own.

[ 12-22-2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: GL2 ]

GOT2FISH · 12-22-2003, 06:27 PM

GL2 Yah PERS is pretty sweet but the way it keeps changing there no guarantee anymore it will be there when Im ready to retire Also the Union is weak dude,major benefits have been lost yearly. And the point wasnt compinsation the point was all the crap the higer ups have to deal with to keep every one HAPPY [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

Jerry Dove · 12-22-2003, 06:43 PM

come on folks, the ODF took the time to post. They could spend all of their time answering your questions, but some of you would never belive any thing they said, so why should they waste their time. The man told you his thoughts, and he is a very honest and sincere person,and he said if you have questions call him. Please, don't hide behind a funny name on a computer, call him and talk to him direct, you might be surprised.

GOT2FISH · 12-22-2003, 07:04 PM

DITTO [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Point-of-Sale Clerk · 12-22-2003, 07:12 PM

Good Idea Mr. Dove

... Please feel free to contact Mr Labhart at the following address:

Mark.W.Labhart@state.or.us

If Mr Labhart is reluctant to answer questions put to him we could start e-mailing his supervisors?

Mr. Dove, this is a "discussion" board and not an advertisement board. It takes two sides to discuss...

rebell · 12-22-2003, 07:14 PM

GL2 and freespool,

You guy's talk the talk, but do you really understand? Or do you wish to?

I personally will not continue to be a part of this emotianal B.S. The two of you (and others) are beyond ridiculous here. You hide behind a moniker and make false accusations. Why would anyone (goverment employee or not) whant to have a debate with some one hiding behind a false name?

Step up to the plate gentlemen, give Mark a call, have the nerve to identify yourself, and then talk to the man while trying to be a good human being. It's the least you could do after the slander and crap you have thrown out here.

For the record, my name is Rusty Bell. And I am pro fish! And I am pro industry! We can have both. If you are totally against logging, SAY IT!

Now, go do the right thing. :grin:

Reelentless · 12-22-2003, 07:19 PM

Mr. Dove and Mr. Bell

They will keep after it until they hear the answer that suits their agenda.

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 07:27 PM

GOT2FISH;
I didn't mean to step on your toes. You could say I got a little envey for the "state' workers.
> as far as keeping poeple happy,
I could do it for the money some of the higher ups make.
Mrs.Keene former head of SAIF made over 300k per year.
The #2 guy @ SAIF made 225k plus.
Wonder what they got for a bonous.
I'd find a way to cope for that kind of money.

Jerry Dove;
I'll admit I might be a little hard on the guy.
Thats said, I'm sick of seeing the way the "state agencies" come off as the only vibale expert per any issuse!
If you want to be naive fine me by me.
I know a end run when I see one.
A spade is a spade, Jerry. :whazzup:
The only reason he posted was to try to ' preemptively deflect any blame being laid at the feet of ODF.
Is that so hard to see?? :whazzup:
Did he come on to discuss this, of give his edict on what happened??
Jerry, I even have questioned if the logging was the cause of the slide due to the depth of the slide.
I'd like to know who the "expert" @ ODF decided to log a slope that had a history of slide faliures.
That's is the million dollar question.

You know why we won't get a anwser??
Cuz, the anwser could be a liabilty to ODF. :shocked:
:blush:
Jerry, don't you question why a slide prone slope was logged, in a watershed with Native Salmon & Steelhead runs???
I really would expect you to be banging a drum until we get a anwser.
I know you do bussniess with thease people on a regular basis, per your postion @ Tillamook Anglers. I'm getting the impression though, that you might not want to ask the hard questions.
With all due respect are you politacliy compromised?/
I don't mean to offend you.
It's just that we know who the "players" are in this deal. And I could see them trying to get there pound of flesh back. That is one of there best deterrents!

Jerry,
You've done a heck alot more than (i ever have for our fisheries. For that I comend you!

You're opinions have allways had my respect. As a matter of fact I'm gonna apolgize to ODF-FORSETRY.
Since you say he is a stand up guy I'll take your word for it.
I have issue professionaly, not personally with him.

I'm not hiding behind my puter,
Jason

[ 12-23-2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: GL2 ]

12-22-2003, 07:32 PM

SSD,
Like "Shoot all of the loggers and millworkers and use your finger"? When they quit using wood and forest products they will quit being hypocrites. Instead of a lockup like the 50/50 plan why don�t we do some research and solve the problems that can be addressed (nothing can be done for poor ocean conditions). The �Little Red Hen� approach will not work.

I am, among other things, a displaced timber product worker and could be working at a pulp mill in SE Alaska now, if the last administration hadn't canceled the timber contracts and put almost 1000 people out of work.

GOT2FISH · 12-22-2003, 07:33 PM

GL2 I'm not trying to be rude but there are sevral ways to ask questions that are important to you. To me [personaly] you seem to be very angree and thats your right but you may be tring to shoot the messanger on this, and could have scared off a good sorce of information for all of us. Once agian I'm not tring to be rude Its hard to make points like this with out the face to face thing.

C-lice · 12-22-2003, 07:38 PM

GL2--

I feel like I have to respond to your bashing state employees. I deny nobody the right to an opinion or the right to voice that opinion, but what you have posted is patently untrue and inflammatory. I presume that you don't mean to be actively unkind, so I will assume that you simply don't know what you're talking about. I am a state employee, and while I can't speak for any agency other than the one I work for, there are grossly untrue statements in your post.

"I think the case workers (in the Pond/Gaddis affair) even got there (sic) jobs back."

Not true. Show me where it says that.

"I don't think you can work for the state if you aren't a (sic) expert at distorting the truth to fit your agenda."

This would imply that 1.) all state employees are dishonest, and 2.) that we are screened and specially selected for this skill. Wait. I think I see things your way. If the people doing the hiring were themselves state employees, and they themselves were dishonest, then they'd hire honest people because they were SUPPOSED to hire DIShonest people.

"And if they do hold you accountable, you always get a truckload of severance pay."

Again not true. I know several people who have been fired from state jobs and they received no severance pay at all. Again, why don't you show me examples to back up your statement?

"Thats (sic) the state employee retirement plan I would kill to have."

Easy, there, boss. It's not worth killing over. But if you'd like a chance to avail yourself of PERS, why don't you apply for a state job so you can get it? Except for the worst of financial crises, the state is almost always hiring everything from seasonal labor to upper management and everything in between. Shoot me a private e-mail if you'd like and I'll help you download an application and tell you where to find jobs posted.

"They were upset they might have to put up some of there (sic) own money into a personal retirment (sic) accountt (sic)."

We were upset because benefits we'd bargained for years earlier were going to be taken away in a clear violation of a contract. Unless one is completely anti-union, which I can understand, it seems one would uphold a union's right to strike when the employer seeks to remove benefits written into a contract.

"BTW-you should check out the protocall (sic) for firing a state employee."

This at least implies that you know the protocol. It also implies that the protocol is the same in every instance, since you allude to a single protocol. Please tell us the protocol and how it applies to every single state employee.

"The bottom line is no one employed in the private sector, gets the same perks and clout as public employees"

Well, we do get paid vacations, sick leave, and 9 paid holidays. As for clout, I suppose our union does carry some weight. I don't agree with a lot of the union's positions, but I'm not going to apologize for belonging. But I will tell you that none of my co-workers has ever gotten a bonus. Nobody at my office has ever had a company picnic or a Christmas/New Years party from their employer. We've never gotten a belt buckle for consecutive days with no lost-time injuries or baseball caps with the company logo. We don't get raises if we do our jobs better than our co-workers.

Again, I don't deny you or anyone else the right to your OPINION. But what you did in your post was state some things (which I quoted) which were not put forth as your opinion, but as facts.

You called out the gentleman from ODF to answer your pointed questions. How 'bout you answer mine? How 'bout you prove what you've put forth as fact about state employees?

I have no reason to dislike you or to think you're a bad person. I really don't hold a grudge or anything. But I can't let your statements go unchallenged.

freespool · 12-22-2003, 07:45 PM

Rebell,your entilted to your opinion. What your sadly mistaken about is the notion that I'am antilogging. I'am antilogging a known slide area. Does that really sound right to you? I'am not the one who's claiming to be an expert here representing the state of Oregon in the forestry dept. All I want is for Mark to answer my question. And furthermore in case you didn't notice we are all hiding behind monikers.

Jerry Dove,I plan on doing my talking next Nov.

free

[ 12-22-2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: freespool ]

R Jackson · 12-22-2003, 07:47 PM

Thank you, C-lice.

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 07:49 PM

Rebell;
I don't think this slide was caused by the logging. It's reaaly deep.
(I sure the heck don't want ODF granting anymore contracts on slide prone slopes in Native fish bearing watersheds.
Do you??
The only answser I want is why????????

To me this is about getting a straight answer.
To me the ODF lacks 100% credabilty.
I'm not a sheep, I cut my own path.
If you want to ride the "state" gravy train for a job then you'd better prepare to be sctutinized.
It's our right to question.
That's what led us to leave the KING & that stuipd island they call England, back in the day!

6horsekicker · 12-22-2003, 07:50 PM

Good post Jerry.

rebell · 12-22-2003, 08:11 PM

Gentlemen,

I do see some good in slides. Do I feel logging this particular slope was a good idea? Yes and no. I wont go in to it here because the nay sayer's don't care or really want to hear it, so why bother? Like I said in my last post, I won't be involved in the emotional B.S.

Freespool, Mark has invited everyone here to call him. Do yourself a favor, and give the man a call. He is a good person who really does care about the fishery. Believe it or not, most people who work in the woods, fish also!! Growing up in the Tillamook area, there was one thing I definetly learned. The biggest stewards of the forest, were the people who worked there!! And they were the first to cry foul when a true problem arose. You are many years too late, complaining about something you know nothing about.

SSPey · 12-22-2003, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ODF-Forestry:
There are numerous old catroads from salvage logging in the 1950's that cross the slide, but they did not appear to be tied to the cause of the slide.

I see this as the biggest "huh?" in the entire Kilchis slide controversy, and surprised that no one has latched onto it...

freespool · 12-22-2003, 08:50 PM

Rebell,I want Mark to answer my question here on this forum,if he's going to give me a straight answer what's the problem? I too grew up on the coast,and what I remember is what ever has gone wrong with fish and fish habitat can be blamed on those that worked in the woods. What you and many others don't seem to realize is the fact that organized logging has a huge credibilty gap. We just don't trust what they say,because of what we see them doing in the name of profit. And along comes the Tillamook State Forest 50/50 plan. Now here is a really good chance to wrestle control of our state owned timberland away from special interests,and back in control of the people of our state. This plan does not lock up the land nor does it stop logging,it merely redirects our efforts to assure good fish habitat.

free

[ 12-22-2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: freespool ]

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 09:34 PM

ODF-Foresty;
I sorry if you feel I have personaly attacked you. I have nothing personal against you, in your capcity @ ODF...
Well, I got a "truck load" of of problems with alot of our "state Gov."
I never meant to insinuate that you had ever been invloved in any unethnical things.
I'm quite sure over time there have been some "honey" deals.
I don't know of any specfic instances, but lets not play dumb with each other.
Where there is money, companys, and Goverment involved sometimes unethnical things happen.

C-Lice,
Got me! I said I think. I remember hearing some talk about it, must not have happened.
I'm not gonna cite specfic cases about severance pay. I know it's not allways the case, but some of the deals are so out of line ya get kinda fed up with it.
> How about old Richard Cantune. He's not "state" but county employee.
He's the dep. sherriff that let some rapist escape while escorting him to & from court.
He got fired & hired back on a union appeal, or the like. Point is they had to hire him back. Then he's surfing the "dirty" sites @ the desk so he's fired again.
That type of stuff & others can happen at the "state" leval too.. I'm not saying all "state" employs are bad.
The state just doesn't seem to exhibit any common sense. That goes for every branch of goverment, some more than others.
I'm sorry if it seems I take it out on the employs. in the system.
Maybe it's just the sysytem (Gov.) not the employes.

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by floatnfish:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ODF-Forestry:
There are numerous old catroads from salvage logging in the 1950's that cross the slide, but they did not appear to be tied to the cause of the slide.

I see this as the biggest "huh?" in the entire Kilchis slide controversy, and surprised that no one has latched onto it... <hr /></blockquote>Uh, Duh!!!

O' Wise old sage.

Edit:
That is the top right there!

How long have you been sitting on that one?

[ 12-22-2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: GL2 ]

C-lice · 12-22-2003, 09:50 PM

GL2--No harm, no foul.

There are certainly culls working for the state just as there are everywhere. And I'm not the biggest fan of the union either. I believe it sometimes has its own agenda that isn't always what is best for its members.

I think the best solution would be for the two of us to get a big campfire, a case of beer, a pocket full of spinners, and a good, hardly fished south coast stream in mid-to-late March. We could solve the world's problems all night and catch unmolested steelhead all day.

GutshotApe · 12-22-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freespool:
What you and many others don't seem to realize is the fact that organized logging has a huge credibilty gap. We just don't trust what they say,because of what we see them doing in the name of profit. And along comes the Tillamook State Forest 50/50 plan. Now here is a really good chance to wrestle control of our state owned timberland away from special interests,and back in control of the people of our state.

Credibility gap? Check out the Rainforest Coalition's news release if you want to see a credibility gap.

Quote:

(from the Rainforest Coalition's 50/50 website) Please use our secure donation page to help us ensure the Tillamook Forest is used for the benefit of all Oregonians especially those working in fishing, tourism, recreation and other industries which depend upon the clean water from the Tillamook watershed. Thanks!

Especially? We're supposed to believe it is only the timber industry that is interested in profits?

The current TSF plan was the product of a committee with representation from all interested parties...a compromise plan incorporating interests of all the people of the state. Apparently the supporters of the 50/50 plan aren't happy with that compromise...and now want to make an end run, using deception and exaggeration, to convince voters to do what the committee wouldn't do...skew the TSF management away from a fair balance. They must think their interests are more important than those of other Oregonians...or what? :whazzup:

GL2 · 12-22-2003, 09:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GL2:

Jerry Dove, I even have questioned if the logging was the cause of the slide due to the depth of the slide.

Guess I might think bout that slide again.
Seems I missed the old salvage loggling roads.
I read every single post on this thread, and I missed that right out of the gate.
I feel stupid!!!
:blush:

freespool · 12-22-2003, 10:21 PM

GSA you must be referring to the TSF plan that allows logging on a known major slide area. See that's the part that stinks about your let the experts tell us how to manage the TSF. Maximum profit with minimum effort. Like I said before,the timber interests have a huge credibility gap. Fish and fish interests don't show up on the spread sheet. Lets be fair about this,lets put it to a vote. This is America right?

free

SSPey · 12-22-2003, 10:56 PM

just to clarify - the old logging roads cut both ways on this issue

pro-logging: it didn't fail when the roads were first established in the 1950's !!!

anti-logging: it takes decades for anchor roots of big trees to decompose, old logging roads with inferior designs are especially prone to failure, and the new logging pushed it over the edge !!!

my point with "huh?" is that history may play a more important role here than anyone is acknowledging. Until a real study is done I would consider it irresposible for any party (including ODF) to draw a quick and dirty conclusion about what did or did not cause the slide, particularly in an area that is prone to sliding, and so where nature or man could easily trigger an event.

GL2 · 12-23-2003, 05:37 AM

fnf:
great point. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

GL2 · 12-23-2003, 07:45 AM

the problem as I see it...
That poor decisions have led to logging efforts
having a negitive enviromental impact in ways were still learning to understand.
The blame goes all around the room.. some don't want to own up to thier share, that loses credabilty.
Steps have been taken to fix the problems. Some of the problems.
Dispute arises over what is or isn't enough effort to fix the problems.
The problem that I have personaly..
> is that ODF & Timber have been doing bussniess,
for a long time. Relationships have been built, and the thought of not doing bussniess as usual is shocking to them. The loss of control is threating to them.
I don't think thease parties giong on down the road doing bussniess as usual is a viable part of a solution.
Change needs to be made..
I don't like the ODF managing the forest as a steward for me & then getting into turning revune off the forest. Thats a conflict of intrest in my book.
We almost need a ODF-Forest Habit Manmgent branch &
ODF- Forest Production branch.
Totally independant of one another.
ODF-FHM would set the enviro. guidelines for timber harvest.
ODF-FP would be given a goal of how much to be cut & go get it. They would only have one job. Timber production. And hopefully a lot of it done in the right way. I could care less if we have "tree plantions" as long as they aren't in a sensitive spot.
Wich is what has been done in the past...
Thus the need for change.
That would give us a little check & balance.
Just as this slide brought in gravle, LWD ectt..,
change in forest mangment would be healthy.

I don't know if I support the 50/50 plan.
It's just a guide line for forming a forest mangemnt plan. It's not a compleate plan, just a outline.
The experts will be left to fill out the outline.
How long will it take to devolop & then implement the plan??
I don't think its fair to ask voters to vote for it in it's present state. It's like a map that has a big blank spot on it.

[ 12-23-2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: GL2 ]

GutshotApe · 12-23-2003, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by freespool:
GSA you must be referring to the TSF plan that allows logging on a known major slide area. See that's the part that stinks about your let the experts tell us how to manage the TSF.

Wasn't the alder logging in the slide area done 6 or 7 years ago? And isn't the current TSF plan only a couple years old? If so, is it fair to characterize this slide (to the extent the alder removal had anything to do with it) as an example of an inadequate current TSF plan? :whazzup:

rebell · 12-23-2003, 04:45 PM

I can't believe that you people actually expect Mark to comment on this thread. The man identified himself completly, then was bashed beyond belief. One of the people bashing him gave his first name, the other, nothing.

And as GSA posted, the sale took place before the TFP was enacted. One person here is still trying to blame it on what they called a new road. That road has been there since the 50s, and dead ends right where the slide is. Then we have people making judgements by the pictures they saw posted here on ifish and the newspaper. One person commented on the visible stumps, the only stumps that are visible on that hillside are the ones that are left from the logging that took place after the Tillamook burn.

And you people really expect Mark to answer your questions? Get reall!! Why debate with someone who chooses to see things there way only.

DF · 12-23-2003, 05:03 PM

Hey good job bashing somone who had the guts to come out and post here. I really doubt that he's going to answer, because some of you would just argue with every little point he makes...and it would turn into a never ending, pointless thread.
I kinda get the feeling that some people have the attitude...

"im right, your wrong, and I don't care who you work for or what your job title is...im still right."

TheRogue · 12-23-2003, 05:08 PM

GSA, Rebell, D/F....

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

TR