Diver and Bait vs nates?

[T-Jet]

I dont want to understate the obvious........but I have pulled diver and bait for winter run fish for many years. I have yet to return one fish white side up! I have watched many posts and have concluded that if I am caught backing down a run with rods pulling bait..........I will be strung up the nearest tree! My question is this. What is the differece between this or sitting in the Columbia with a wrapped Kwikie, prawn spinner or backbouncing eggs. Finmarked chinook may be retained, but what about those with the extra fin? Do chinook have the inability to take an offering as deep as steelhead? What about other species? I just dont get it.

[Wild Chrome]

I don't know the full answer to your question, but I can tell you that wild steelhead are a lot more aggressive than wild chinook so that 1) It's not necessary to use bait to catch them and 2) they probably don't hit and swallow the bait as quickly.

FYI: A lot of the fish mortality occurs hours, days or weeks after the fish is released.

[Gone Fishin]

Wild Chrome Well said!

[Amerman]

T jet

The biggest difference is that if you are fishing the Columbia now for springers you are hoping to catch a fish you can keep and there is a chance you may have to let one go. But if you fish many or the coastal stream ( or streams like the santiam) this time of year there is next to now chance of catching a hatchery fish and the odds are very high of catching a wild fish. The other thing is a lot of the fish that you catch and release in the Columbia are not wild springers just springer from hatcheries (like the Wild river, all Indian and most Idaho hatcheries) that do not fin clip their fish.

For me what people are saying is if you have a good chance of catching a wild fish you should use methods that lead to a good chance of healthy release. Divers and bait by their nature and the way you fish them (waiting for the fish to take the bait repeatedly hoping for a deep hook up)don't help you catch and release. So it doesn't matter whether you are fishing for chinooks or steelhead think before you catch.

Again if you are fishing divers and bait in Dec on the Wilson its much different than fishing them this time of year on the Nestucca, Trask or Santiam. If you have a chance of catching wild steelhead I say leave the divers and bait at home the risk isn't worth the reward. There are to many other ways to catch them.

[ 03-06-2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Amerman ]

[Gone Fishin]

Scott I couldn't agree more!

[swampy]

Yo T-Jet !!! You been getting after them steelies my man ?? Think it will fish this weekend or is it coming up too quick ? Didn't you say you'd teach me some Santiam stuff one of these days ? All the Best ...swampy

[T-Jet]

I agree that the native stock should be protected! ........Yes, I do fish the santiam alot! I too do what it takes to preserve wild fish. How many guides put the diver and bait away when they have paying clients in thier boat? I dont want to start a war on this topic. Awareness is half the battle. I guess I have a conflict of interest due to diver/bait being very effective!
Swampy, I was going to run on Saturday, but with all this rain......I hope the river holds color! I will be out there Sat or Sun. Look for the green hardtop boat and the Black and White springer bouncing around the boat! I hope to see ya!

[Amerman]

Originally posted by T-Jet:
How many guides put the diver and bait away when they have paying clients in their boat?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">We all do! Its not about money it's about saving wild fish. In our area the guides work hard to educate others about catching and handling wild fish. If people (guides or non) are seen using divers and bait in our area we try to take the time to explain it to them as to why we don't use those methods when nates are present. I know I have had conversations with a couple of new guides and regular sprotsfisherman. All have been very nice and usually well receipted. Read Marty's signature it tells everyone his thoughts on this! Its on every post he makes. It's all about education, thanks for bringing this up.

You say you "have a conflict of interest due to diver/bait being very effective!" There are lots of ways to catch these steelhead and many are as or more effective than using divers and bait. Trust me about conflicts of interest I own a bait company and would love promote the use of divers and bait, instead of none bait methods. But I want to do what is best for the fish and am thinking of these fishes future and the future of fishing. If you need help with other tech. to catch steelhead email me and I will help you as much as I can.

Scott

[T-Jet]

Amerman, Thank you for the offer! I know your products. I have met you several times. Your cures are great. I have many methods of fishing. Im ok for now! My statement was not meant to bash guides. Many are professionals in every sense of the word. Many folks take methods home with them and use them. I have just seen to many folks not practice what they preach! ..........another 2 cents worth!

[Gone Fishin]

T Jet,

You're right, I too have witnessed guides that use diver and bait this time of year and although I've had discussions with the ones I've seen, I can't make them stop if they don't want to. I even know of a well respected guide that when he see's me coming, pulls in the divers and starts doing something else! I'm sure he feels guilty but not guilty enough to stop [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] . But, I think the truly professional guides are the ones that care enough to protect our valuable resource. And we'll do what it takes to protect it. I practice what I preach! You'll find some true professional guides (the one's that care) next week at the Oregon Wildlife Heritage Foundations third annual Wild Steelhead Round-Up, I know Ifish guides Scott, Grant, Travis and myself will be there and we won't be using diver and bait!

[Gun Rod Bow]

OK T-Jet,

I'll bare all in the interest of helping. I've used diver and bait for years and commonly recorded many 10-15 fish days on them. Liked them because they were very effective and a great way to get guests/newbies into fish.

I originally started using them at times when springers and steelhead could be caught and have caught both on the same drift. I have used them late season on the coast, but do not do so any longer.

I would pinch the barbs on #2 hooks and use a hook "de-gorger" (the red plastic things like people used for trout). I felt pretty good about myself.

I heard all the remarks about D&B and started really being carefull. But to be honest, I knew I killed about 1 out of 15 or 20 no matter how carefull I was and suspect that others died that I did not see. I saw a lot of others doing it, and also saw dead fish in the river.

No method is 100% fish friendly, other than the video games. But the D&B method FOR SURE kills a lot of fish. Frankly, you get cheated of a good fight too since deep hooked fish just dont fight the same as a corner hooked fish.

I used to reason, well if it's legal... Well we should be better than that, Sportsman should be able to recognize a negative affect on a limited resource and police ourselves.

All in all, in saving the wild runs, it is not the responsible thing to do.

BTW, A friend and I fished the Nestucca on Tuesday and landed 5 steelhead, bobber and jig and eggs, all released healthy. I saw 2 boats pulling D&B and both said they had nadda.

Hope you think it over.

GRB

[Wild Chrome]

Amerman,

[Silver Hilton]

I hafta weigh in.

I use divers and bait a lot. I've probably caught 50 or so fish on divers and bait over the past few years. Maybe I'm not doing it right, maybe we're too fast on the strike, or something, but I have NEVER, I mean NEVER, hooked one deeply. There have been a few hooked in the tongue that I suspect would have been bleeders, but that is hardly different than a plug caught fish.

So there appears to be something that one can do to catch fish that reduces deep hooking. I tend to use fairly large hooks, usually 1/0 or 2/0, and we pick up fish on the first hard pump down. We shake a few off, but we get most of them.

No, I don't go trolling with bait through streams full of natives. I just wonder if there are some technique modifications that could be made to improve mortality.

[Gus Orviston]

I think continually advertising how awesome it is with high numbers, then saying don't do it, is not helping the cause.

GRB, did you have discussions with the people on the river about the dangers of BnD, or was that opportunity missed? I am wondering how people react to the dangers of this when confronted, open or defensive.

gus

[Gone Fishin]

Gus,

You get both, some people are "open minded" and will listen, others will tell you to "mind your own $#@!!*& business". I just try to be polite and approach it nicely. That's about all you can do. Either they'll listen or they won't, at least I tried.

[Flatfish]

Conditions dictate how to fish. There is a lot more in the world than visibility and scent. In very cold water conditions, flashy metal lures( spoons and spinners) out fish bait by a large margin. Plugs do too. But when the water warms up to the 40s bait becomes effective.

But since most folks wait til the water has 2-3 feet of vis and is dropping, 99 times out of 100( in Valley streams here)bait in one heck of a way to catch these fish.The fact that the water will be between 41 and 47 degrees is a function of mother nature. And bait works well when the water temps are in that range.Therefore folks use it because of the confidence factor.

Raise the temps to say 55 degrees and 4-5 feet of vis and the menu changes again. Under these conditions I can out fish a bait slinger with small dark spinners( those of you that fish the Deschutes in the summer can relate).Or just casting plugs and letting them swing like a fly fisher does.Fish in these conditions do need scent to be coaxed into biting. They will travel great distances to hit a presentation.Scent is secondary.

Raise the temps to 60 degrees and give the water unlimited visibility, and the fish will no longer hold in the tailouts that we all love in the winter and spring. Now the fish sit in the heads of runs. Tiny dark presentations will make these fish travel more than 15 feet to kill a tiny dark trout sized presentation. A big gob of eggs with a hot pink corkie above it may catch fish under these conditions, but they will certainly spook as many as they catch. A single egg may work, but most folks think if one egg is good then a glob of them is great. Wrongo. I have caught fish on coast streams after boats have drifted of pulled divers in front of me and then I drop in and pitch a tiny spinner out there, in the same water that was worked over just minutes before, and had steelhead charge halfway across the river to crush my blade. Ya only need to cause convince them to bite. If they feel threatened, they will most likely retreat.

Are spinners the better way to fish?? No. Is diver and bait effective? At times. But most folks never study the fish enough to learn this much.

As far as fish swallowing the bait, this is as much caused by the diver in front of the fish as the mood of the fish. Ever hear of the " Magic Plug"? Well most times the diver (when used in steelhead applications) is nothing more than a plug. The fish key in on the vibration of the individual diver(plug) and are turned on/off by the plug, NOT the bait. We had one diver that we finally lost last year, more often than not, the fish would swallow the bait that was behind that plug. They would not take the other baits.This diver was murder on fish in every sense of the word.They prefered it to the other divers in the water that were proven fish catchers. I refer to plugs/divers like this as "Hall o Famers".

Now if you put this all together, and want to not hook fish deep( or at least minimize the chances) leave the bait at home when fishing in a Nate rich area( like the coastal rivers now). And thread on a pink worm. The fish will still key onto the diver, just like bait. But they do not try to eat the worm. The strikes are savage( and since the oarsman hardly ever gets to play a fish you might as well make the hit visually exciting)and the fish hit them as often as bait in 42-50 degree conditions.As a bonus we seem to catch an extrodinary number of bright fish on pink worms. Not many spawners, for whatever reason. Don't believe me? Last weekend my wife caught a nate on a pink worm. Buzz himself( along with 3 of his best buddies) was 75 yards downstream of us.They had just fished the water she plucked it from.They did not have pink worms tied on.

This all boils down to having confidence in how you are fishing. Bait is a great way to catch fish, but they know it is food and at times will try to eat it. If that little voice in your head questions how you are fishing, remember this- There is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

Sorry this is so long, but I am trying to educate without yelling and screaming, so yall get the background.

Mark and the dog.

[Gus Orviston]

flatfish,,, great post! gus

[A-Boss]

I've had the same experience as Silver Hilton running bait divers. I've never hooked a fish anywhere but the corner of the mouth.

I run spin-n-glos, sand shrimp, and 2/0 octopus hooks with yarn. I also don't let 'em chew on it. Get the rod as soon as it starts bouncing.

Maybe the people hooking them deep are using too small of hooks and waiting too long to hit em.

That being sad, I do bow to peer pressure and put them away if there are no hatchery fish around. But sometimes I wonder why.

[FishBowl]

I tend to use # 1 hooks on my diver and bait rigs during the summer and I hook lots of fish real deep, but when there are a lot of natives in the Santiams early in the run I like to up the hook size to 2/0 or 3/0 and they don't seem to ingest them to their bellies, I have to admit that I caught 3 last week on the North Santiam on shrimp and diver and all of them where hooked in the corner of the mouth and released with what looked to be no ill affects. All using 2/0 hooks I know I will get some guff for this post but it is legal and effective. If there were only a small number of nates coming up the Santiams I would be the first to put away the diver and bait, but with over 13,000 in 2001 and 15,000 in 2002 I don't think we will be hurting these fish numbers to bad, but I am no expert and if the ODFW see's fit to ban bait then so be it. I do applaud those that are against this practice and respect their opinion, they are true sportsman, me on the other hand just go by the rules that the State put's out there. To this day I have not killed a native fish to my knowledge, I suppose if that was to happen then maybe I would have to re- evaluate my fishing. Thanks for letting me put my 2 cents worth out there. That is probably all it is worth any way :whazzup:

Tim

[salmonidstalker]

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">posted 03-07-2003 09:47 AM

quote:
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Originally posted by T-Jet:
How many guides put the diver and bait away when they have paying clients in their boat?

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amerman :We all do! Its not about money it's about saving wild fish. In our area the guides work hard to educate others about catching and handling wild fish

i have to disagree with that ..just last week on the river as we were drift fishing
we had a guide boat go by us ..he had pulled up his gear as to not run through the hole we were fishing ..and lo and behold he was pulling diver and bait ..i understand that they have clients to keep happy but alot of people look to them for know how ..lead by example gentlemen..
theres no money in destroying our prized fisheries ..
note we had a great day and caught many fish without divers

[ 03-20-2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: salmonidstalker ]

[Ty]

I have to aggree that fish do get hooked deeply more often w/ divers....

I do no think that chinook are more passive than native steely's... Either spp may be very aggressive and has to do more with what life phase they are in, fresh from ocean, springer or fall, summer or winter or what the river sonditions are and how many other fish are around. There are very few native springer's on the coast other than the Umpqua and the Rogue.

Many of these fish are far less aggressive than there fall cousins simply because they basically are in no rush to spawn or get up river untill fall and are very sexaully immature and in a hang out an wait mode tell early fall. Seems to me fish with the shortest adult life histories (time spent in fresh water) are the most aggressive, disregarding summer steelhead, because they are a different creature all together.

Take the summer chinook of Kenai, there are two versions; early run and late run, the late run fish are always the most aggressive when they come in, and the early run fish are more aggressive the closer they are to spawaning later in the season, thus the best fishing is in July cause there are the most fish in the river, making all fish more aggressive, early run fish have are appraching spawning phase and entering a spawning state, staging, and preparing to move into tributaries to spawn, the late run fish have a short fresh water phase and have the combined aggression of fresh from the ocean and sometimes still activly feeding and are apporaching sexual maturity and spawning making then even twice as aggressive as there early run cousins.

There always are exceptions to the rule's and no stead fast behavior as far as anadromous fish go.

Unless regulations change, no one, especially guide should be scutinized for the gear they choose to use. If there is a problem with the way they fish, then the regulations should be lobbied to change. All sport caught fish released face an inharent mortality, and a fish that isn't deeply hooked, can be stress, and just because a fish swims off, it shouldn't eb assumed that it survives, and or doesn't have a significant impact of it success of surviving to spawn.

Sport fisherman need to stick together and not bicker over gear types and the untangable devices that seem to affect the resouce and preach concervation on a whole and stick with the issues of salmonid conservation like habitat, commercial fishing, hydro-power, hatcheries, and habitat destruction.