Worried about silt and mudslides

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 10:46 AM

I have NEVER seen the Kilchis run so silty. It's orangish red! It's ugly!

I am really worried about the silt and the effect on the spawning salmon. :depressed:

This is awful. It's either coming from Clear Creek or Cougar Creek. Not sure which, but if you go up to the park, it's clearer there.

Jen

[ 12-20-2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Snapset · 12-13-2003, 10:57 AM

Probably a mud slide, and there is no question that silt damages spawning beds, but mud slides also carry rocks into the river, and these rocks replace the gravel that has been swept into the bay. So it is not necessarily all bad.....

Fishin Magician · 12-13-2003, 02:03 PM

Its hopefully mother nature @ work. The fish have survived for thousands of years of natural floods and slides. The things that really worry me are like when the Wilson is @ 5.0 and Emerald green then all of a sudden it turns crap brown for 30 minutes and smells like rancid cow manure. 30 minutes later its back to green. A local guide said that there is a farmer who is flooding overflow directly into the river regularly. I have witnesed it personally 4 times and that worries me a lot more than silt......... [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 02:33 PM

Muddy is one thing, and happens naturally. This is awful! This is a big slide, somewhere, and I'm going to find out what is going on.
I know it's a slide, but why, and where? We are going to go find it.

Anyhow, the Kilchis has done that muddy up and clear thing, several times this fall, like within hours it will change.

Jen

ZaQ · 12-13-2003, 02:53 PM

But what are you going to do when you find it?

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 02:57 PM

Yell at someone.

Snapset · 12-13-2003, 03:14 PM

OK guys, you heard her. If you see a mud slide, stay clear or you are likely to have someone yelling at you. Kinda like walking between a she-bear and her cubs. Not a place you want to be. :smile:

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 03:28 PM

You got it. :smile:

dla · 12-13-2003, 03:32 PM

Follow the gravel trucks? You said its' clear at the park, so I'm assuming this isn't due to logging directly, but rather some logging-related road building.

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 03:40 PM

You know, there have been several gravel trucks going up the logging road, opposite us.

You can see the creek across the road, on your way to the park, where the mud is coming from. I was wrong. It isn't Clear Creek, it is Little Sam Downs Creek. I figured out on a State Forestry map how to get there, tomorrow.

I have my plans for the day. If you hear me yelling, you know I've found it.

Jen

Snapset · 12-13-2003, 03:44 PM

dla · 12-13-2003, 04:02 PM

Snapset: I don't think it is funny. The folks doing the road building are required by law to prevent this kind of sloughing from the construction site. Most outfits don't move dirt when it's raining so much anyway. Some dingaling is up there with a cat or excavator making a fresh cut without runoff control.

Frankly I'm glad that she's got the nerve to check it out.

A quick call to the OSP could speed things up.

Fishin Magician · 12-13-2003, 04:10 PM

A friend of mine just stopped by and said that it was in fact a slide and above the slide the water looked a lot nicer earlier today.

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 04:26 PM

Well, of course it is a slide, silly.
Yes, the park water is running clear and high.

The creek comes in below the park, and is gushing mud, so the work being done is up that creek. I have figured out how to go there, and I will go there.

I doubt anyone will tell me by phone what is going on, as it probably won't be something to brag about. Bill will be with me, yelling too.

Yes, I am ticked. It may very well be natural, but if it's not, and it's a goof up in forestry planning, I will very well yell at the top of my lungs.

If someone could please explain to me why we would even consider allowing only a 30 to 50 foot buffer along streambeds, instead of the National Forest's reccomendation of 300 (which would better protect spawning habitat,) I would be very interested in knowing, and perhaps not yell quite so loud.

I may have mistated the above numbers. Let me look it up, and find out, k?

Jen

[ 12-13-2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 04:55 PM

OK, Federal forest reccommendation is 300, and that may very well be excessive, and done for reasons other than fish habitat...

However, did you know that private "no touch" is only 10 feet? What?

The proposal includes a 50 tree per acre plant from 21 to 100 feet. Have you ever seen the 50 per acre thing? It's pretty sparse. Look at the top of the Wilson hiway, where the trees are very sparse. It's not pretty.

Anyhow, this kind of activity, if it is what I think it is, is not fish friendly.

I KNOW that logging is essential to our children's school funding. I KNOW that it is a problem. But... to interupt our balance of nature to gain money just seems wrong. Isn't there any other way to extract money that from the sap in our trees? There has GOT to be an answer flowing somewhere between the disgusting silt in the Kilchis River, and the trees that hold the bank together.

If I had to home school my kids to save even a tiny part of the forest, I'd do it in a second.

I apologize to those of you that will disagree with me, but I am concerned about over harvesting. You aren't going to change my mind, but you can try, if you like. Just don't get mad at me for my feelings, and I won't get mad at you for yours, OK? We can all think differently and still get along.

But, if you looked outside, and saw the river today, (I'm not kidding! I have NEVER seen it this dirty, nor has Bill.) you would understand, and also be concerned for the redds and the salmon that are trying to reproduce in these conditions.

Jen

[ 12-13-2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Snapset · 12-13-2003, 05:06 PM

If it is a man-caused slide, then it is not funny. If it is a slide that simply happened because we have had a lot of rain, then the idea of Jenny yelling at some poor guy whos stumbled across her in the vicinity of a slide is rather hilarious, IMHO. Either way, we haven't heard the cause for the muddy water so it is too early for anyone to get their bloomers in a bunch.

Fish Hawk Adventures · 12-13-2003, 05:12 PM

Jen,
I know this is upsetting to you. The slide could be from natural causes or from man who has made some poor choices in regards to conservation in the past and there are issues that still face us each day in regards to conservation. However the good thing that we have for us today, is at least ther are buffers along streams, in the past there were not, maybe the buffers are not large enough but we have them now and it will be easier to fight and have the buffers increased, than to have to fight to even allow then to have to have buffers.

In this day and age the good thing is that the road departments and logging outfits are making a effort to not harm the salmon populations. For example the riad departments on the Nehalem river used to fix bridges and culverts when they wanted and as they were needed. Now they have to permit through the agencies that are in control of the conversation of the streams. When they are granted the permit they only have a very short time to perform the work and the timing is when the rivers have the least impact for the salmons runs.

So what I am saying is we are starting to get alot better than things used to be.

Jennie@ifish · 12-13-2003, 05:12 PM

I don't think it's too early at all. Whether or not this particular case should get my bloomers in a bunch or not, is up in the air.

However, my bloomers have been bunched by this problem for a long time.

I'd like to get them ironed out.

Jen

rob allen · 12-13-2003, 05:56 PM

The logging industry has faough for decades against doing anything responsible. They have proved for decades that they do not care about streams forests of fish.
Now this is just my opinion.. if their operations mess up a stream close them down permanently They don't care about us lets not care about them I don't care if lumber prices go through the roof I am sick of our fisheries getting the shaft from everyone else.. But thats just my opinion..

Snapset · 12-13-2003, 08:50 PM

Somehow I manage to get in arguments with people I agree with. My apologies.

TGFwriter · 12-13-2003, 09:22 PM

Way to go Jen! Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this! If you saw gravel trucks heading up that area, I have to believe there is a slide up there. I don't know anything about building roads but I do know that is the major cause of sedimentation in our streams and bays. Although I am embarassed for ODF thinking a 20 foot no touch buffer is adequate for wild fish recovery, I am really afraid if ODF builds the roads they need to increase the harvest as proposed, we may be out of fishing for a long time after even the most minor rain event.

These forests have recovered enough that when we have a modest rain event, it still clears quickly once it starts to drop. That won't be the case when the heavy duty logging starts to take place in a few years. If we don't get that 50/50 plan passed in November '04, we can all count on losing some serious fishing times along with valuable fish habitat!

Even if we got these cuts done by helicopter, we would be much better off. The problem is ODF doesn't require it so thousands of miles of SEDIMENT DUMPING ROADS will be built in the Tillamook State Forest over the next several years! You think your mad now Jen, just wait until what you see is a common occurance after EVERY rain event!

GOT2FISH · 12-13-2003, 11:17 PM

Oh Im scared to go here HONEST ITS JUST A QUESTION. What is the diffrence between what the logging companys do and a natural desaster such as a forest fire. Do they do the same damage? And I do agree no damage is the best damage Im just wondering.

Jennie@ifish · 12-14-2003, 06:01 AM

Snapset, I don't think you are in an argument with anyone. I just feel really seriously about this. I have no problems with you giggling at me yelling. Giggle away. :smile: I think this is a case of not being able to see my facial expressions through written words. :smile: :smile: See? I smile.

However, I not smile at this:

Bob Rees sent me this.

I spent a little time converting it to HTML so that I could share it with you.

This is a cheat sheet that summarizes the Washington FPRs and other stream buffer policies. It's a bit out of date, and a fair bit of guesswork went into summarizing the different systems, so don't quote it verbatim. The standards for lands managed by the Washington DNR may be a bit different.

Pretty eye opening. These are the things that are dangerous to teach Jennie about. Jennie didn't want to know these things. Now Jennie is mad and Jennie will yell even louder. Jennie would rather be ignorant, because now that Jennie knows, Jennie has to do something.

Jen

[ 12-14-2003, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

SSPey · 12-14-2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GOT2FISH:
Oh Im scared to go here HONEST ITS JUST A QUESTION. What is the diffrence between what the logging companys do and a natural desaster such as a forest fire. Do they do the same damage? And I do agree no damage is the best damage Im just wondering.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I'll highlight a few things:

1) Logging is more frequent. Fires return every 250 years in these forests. Logging on private lands is every 40 years, and on public lands every 80 years.

2) Roads are the biggest problem in all of this. Fires don't build roads. Logging does.

3) Fires are patchy in space and time across the landscape, so the effects are acute. Logging chronically affects the entire state all at once as almost all watersheds have one place or another with active logging and road erosion.

4) Fires either don't get into wet riparian areas, or when then do,they kill trees that fall over and provide fish habitat. Logging removes the trees (except for a very very narrow "buffer")

5) Natural landslides deliver big rocks and cobbles to streams very infrequently, along with big wood to hold that gravel in place. Logging removes quality upslope wood, so when landslides happen, all you get are rocks and silt with nothing to hold the rocks in place and make good spawning gravel.

those are at least some of the differences.

GOT2FISH · 12-14-2003, 10:24 AM

Got it so its more the damage from construction of the roads than the loss of the trees.Thanks

rob allen · 12-14-2003, 10:26 AM

logging kills ever tree in the affected area forest fires typically in oregon kill only some of the trees in the affected area.

Jennie@ifish · 12-14-2003, 10:54 AM

Yes, it is road building, no matter how far from the stream bed, actually, that by far causes most of the damage.

What happens is that the water must rechannel, and go somewhere. Ends up saturating the soil, logged or not, sliding. Of course, logging makes it more apt to slide, but is not usually the total cause.

The water is used to coming down evenly over the mountain, but when we cut a road in, the gutters we build become streams, as we have high water events. Then, the saturation occurs, and oops! The land falls. :depressed:

We found the area. It is really ugly. Pictures to come.

It is a "Oregon Department of Forestry Damage Area", or so says the sign." I'll say! There is a cat up there that someone has been working with. There is also a gravel pit area.

There has been a lot of activity, we would say, in the last week and much longer.

The slide is huge. It apparently has been a maintenance problem for quite some time, and this week really gave way. This week, the mountain slid down, across, and through the road, into the South Fork of Sam Downs Creek at approximately milepost 2.5.

Bill stepped on the edge of the slide, and it was pure soft sludge mud, mixed with boulders and tree trunks. Quite a sight to see.

We have several pictures to come.

Will post them soon. This is tragic. You can track where the mud joins in with the naturally flowing clearer water.

The river has dropped since yesterday, revealing a sickening accumulation of fine silt in areas where the water has receded. These are areas where we have witnessed, in the past, salmon redds. Hope these salmon eggs have their face masks at the ready. :depressed:

I'll go work on uploading some pictures. Bill is now calling Bob Rees.

Jennie@ifish · 12-14-2003, 01:17 PM

Kilchis River Slide on Sam Downs Creek

This is not good. Our prediction is that the Kilchis river steelhead season may be over for the year.

Not only that, but the spawning beds are in serious jeopardy. I would say 98 percent of the chums spawn below the point of the slide. :depressed:

The amount of silt and debris dumped in the river is incredible.

Chum fry are a very critical food source for the cutthroat, and the salmon.

I am just heartsick. :depressed:

Jen

letsfish · 12-14-2003, 01:52 PM

Thanks for update Jennie. I hope you are wrong- I am concerned about the lack of interest the chum get from the state. They used to be so strong and vital in the Kilchis and Miami and I hear other rivers farther back than I can recall.It will be interesting to follow this over the coming years.

freespool · 12-14-2003, 02:11 PM

Jennie,as you've probably have read in many of my posts concerning the so called stream buffer and no touch zones,that they are sorrily scant. And have I ever been flamed for it,like a blow torch. I agree wholeheartedly that road building near streams is detrimental to fish habitat. Just one more reason for you and others that are concerned with fishstocks and watershed health in the Tillamook State Forest to endorse the 50/50 plan. These fish runs of the North Coast deserve our help. Fish deserve just as much lattitude as loggers.The fish were here first!

free

Travis Moncrief Fins Feathers Furs · 12-14-2003, 02:30 PM

Just got back from looking at the slide, it is a mess. But that road has been there before any one on Ifish was born. It has nothing to with road construction or the fault of the road. The slide came from way up the hillside. The slide is basically a small draw that contains a creek that gully washed. The road in this case will allow it to be cleaned up. When things settle down they will be able to get in there with equipment. They will be able to lay a culvert down to let the water get to creek and then rerock the road.

This is deffinetely not the best thing that could have happened but fish are tougher than we give them credit. They survived The Tillamook Burn that took place in the 30's and early 40's which nuked every tree in all our county watersheds. Rivers ran mud for weeks when it rained and slides were very common. There have been several slides on the Wilson over the years that hit the rivers and ones far bigger than the one up Sam Downs. Infact the one that came down and created the "Minefield" completely dammed up the river.

I am not trying to belittle what happened because it is awful but its happened before and Nature has a way of mending itself

Your right though Jen, Steelhead fishing may be a little tough when we get rain, but after a while it should start to clean itself up. It just depends on how much unstable material is still left up there.

Great Pictures, wish I would have taken my camera. The most amzing part is where Sam Downs hits the Kilchis, it goes from nice clean water to instant mud, like someone drew a line with a ruler. When the fish get above that it will be like somone turned on a light switch.

Jennie@ifish · 12-14-2003, 02:43 PM

I'm not going to argue with you, Travis, and I hope that you are correct.
However, I am going to listen to what the people in charge have to say, and some other folks.

I don't think it matters when something was built. I think that it may take years to see the cause of something that was built. In this case, a road.

It seems to me, that if the rain falls down the mountain and gets backed up on the road, then the soil above it and below it will get more saturated, and tend to slip sometime.

Anyhow, I do hope that you are right about getting it fixed. It seems there would be some hazard and safety issues in doing so.

I will just watch the story unfold, and see who says what and who does what.

However, good has come of it, as far as I am concerned. I didn't really take much interest in what goes on in them-thar hills until now.

I was just out standing by the river, and soaking up the vision of a totally mudded in, silty river.

After this event, you'd better bet I'll keep my ears and eyes open a little bit closer. I've learned some things that I don't like, and I'd like to learn how to promote safe practices in our forests, so that it benefits our streams and salmon runs in the best way possible.

It's land that God has given you and I the responsibility to care for, and I have been avoiding that responsibility.

Jen

rob allen · 12-14-2003, 03:52 PM

last winter I saw and took pictures of a very similar slide on the Hoko river. The cause? clearcutting the rip of a steep clope as it appears from the Photos is the case in this slide as well. it's my opinion that whoever did the logging should never be allowed to log ever again anywhere and should be forced to pay 100% of the cleanup costs even if it puts the company under.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even a geologist to know that when you scalp a steep slope it will eventually slide and cause this kind of damage.. temporary or not there should be hell to pay but there won't be because the entire industry and thoes agencies that manage our forests are corrupt and do not care. Mitigation does not work you have to not do the damage in the first place.
Jennie I am sorry about the Kilchis it's a jem of a river and for such a thing to happen is a crime

TGFwriter · 12-14-2003, 04:23 PM

Yes, although I am not a soil scientist, it looks like the road is not what failed here but recent logging activity in this area. Only a professional can tell us what really happened here. Although logging on steep slopes is clearly NOT a good idea, road building WILL be the biggest problem that we face in the Tillamook when ODF's harvest plans come into practice.

We may never know the damage that this slide has on our current populations of chum and chinook. I have to believe chum will get the worst of this as most of their eggs have already been laid in the gravel. If we lose our chum hatch, it could have serious damaging effects on our outmigrants from the estuary. When we conducted the fish use study on Tillamook Bay a few years ago, we found how important chum fry were as a food source for juvenile coho, chinook and cutthroat trout. Before migrating out to the ocean, these juveniles depended heavily on these chum fry as a food source. If growth rates are effected by lack of a valuable food source such as the chum fry, we could see a poor return of adults from that outmigrating population.

And to answer "GOT2FISH"s question, the difference between a natural disaster and what logging companies do to the landscape is that we (or I wish that we) have more control over the damaging effects of logging versus wildfires. Lands can be logged responsibly- it will just cost the contractor a bit more BUT will save the taxpayer MUCH more as roads constantly need to be maintained (SEE JENNIE'S PHOTOS)and culvert replaced.

* * * INADEQUATE CULVERTS THAT ALLOW FOR FISH PASSAGE ARE REPORTED TO BE THE #1 LIMITING FACTOR FOR FISH PRODUCTION! ! ! * * *

Hundreds if not thousands of miles of spawning and rearing habitat are unusable by juvenile and adult salmonids. Culverts are needed where roads are needed, roads are needed where logging takes place.

Now, what can you do? Go to www.tillamook5050.org and get signatures for the 50/50 initiative or donate money so that we can get our message out! With the photos in hand, the message is pretty clear!

Jennie@ifish · 12-14-2003, 04:34 PM

I just gave the organization a Christmas Present donation. :smile:

That felt good... Now, onto dinner.

Jen

Travis Moncrief Fins Feathers Furs · 12-14-2003, 05:16 PM

Jen, I hope you didn't think that I was arguing with you I was just stating what I saw.

Water will always run down hill, a road is not going to stop it or even slow it up. Water has its own unique way of finding the lowest point and a road is not an impassable barrier for water. It has two choices, run across the road or down the road. But almost all roads (paved,gravel)have some slopeand are ditched, these ditches lead to culverts and into the streams. With out these lots of roads would deffintily wash away but not necesarily cause a mountain to slide away.

I spend a lot time in the hills and have spent most of it in those hills and slides happen. Most of them don't have a road near them, but most of the public only sees ones that do. There doesnt always have to be a person or thing to point the finger at, somtimes things just happen.

Maybe I am arguing with you now, but I would like to call it friendly debate :grin:

As far as fixing it, right now it is proabably a little sketchy, but it will for surely be fixed when things settle down. Like I said think of the slides that come down Hwy 6 and into the Wilson they all get fixed.

My main point was trying to give reasurance that the fish will be OK. :smile: Our watersheds in Tillamook, Co. get better every year. :smile: And that they have gone through the worst possible conditions from the Burn than we could possibly due from logging and the fish still survived.

rebell · 12-14-2003, 05:34 PM

I was up there and looked at the slide myself this afternoon. It is simply a case of a steep hillside over saturated with rain. There is no road at the top of that hillside, and the road at the bottom has been there for as long as I can remember. The road ends right underneath where the slide is, there is an old cat trail that continues on up the draw, but no vehicle has been able to travel it for 30 plus years or longer.

I have hunted in that area for 30 plus years, this spot has slid out before. The slides that occured there in the past were nothing of this size, but it is a spot that a lot of locals have known about for years.

The hillside contained 90% alder, it looks like it was logged 5 to 7 years ago. It looked like they went in and took the alder, but left the conifers. I looked for skid trails but did not notice any. They may have taken the wood out by helicopter. There was no evidence of a high lead operation there that I could see.

I wouldnt worry to much about damage to spawning fish right now, its not as bad as it looks. I am sure Jen is upset because her prime fishing water is not it's usuall green, but as Travis stated, it used to be a lot worse. A lot worse than any one here could even begin to imagine.

[ 12-14-2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: rebell ]

Jennie@ifish · 12-14-2003, 05:44 PM

No, not only upset about my prime green water.
I'm upset because I did a little digging and found out some things that make me very unhappy.

Like this.

...and like some other things that I spoke to some biologists about today, and yesterday.

How I wish it were only a minor fishing inconvenience.

Travis, not arguing... Just don't agree with all you say.

I really believe that building roads in our forests, if not properly done, can cause extreme hazards.

Jen

[ 12-14-2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Travis Moncrief Fins Feathers Furs · 12-14-2003, 05:52 PM

From what I know chum tend to spawn in small side tribs rather than main stream. I am sure there are main stream spawners but almost every side creek that I am aware of contain chum Which should not be affected by the dirty water. And a good percentage of the Chinook spawn above where Sam Downs hits the Kilchis. Lets hope for the best.

Rob Allen, man you are extreme. Do you think a logger can just go into an area and cut what he wants [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] On any timber sale a sales boundry is set and they can only cut whith in that boundry. The boundry is set by the land owner in this case the state under the Forest Practices Act. Was the cause of this slide because of the clear cut, maybe, but who knows. This ground was covered in vegetation and has been replanted, it was not a runoff slide this hapened deep within. I saw a slide 100 times the size of this one that was completley covered with big timber come down on the Wilson River Hwy and dump right into the River. What should we blame this one on?

rebell · 12-14-2003, 05:59 PM

Travis,

You will see that it is alway's easier to blame it on something you no nothing about. That is excactly what is happening here.

For everyones information, all the roads in that area have been there since the original Tillamook burn. Blaming this slide on road building only show's how little you know about the area.

Travis Moncrief Fins Feathers Furs · 12-14-2003, 06:13 PM

Fortuantely there won't be much new road construciton as much of the roads are already in place from when they logged the burn. They will prabably have to open up some old roads that are brushed in but the main thoroughfares are already there. Back then they had to log by cat and skidder so there is probably more road their than they need. With todays technology of high-lead logging and helicoptors things should be relatively low impact.

rob allen · 12-14-2003, 06:22 PM

Rebel I have lived and played in rural forested areas my whole life and seen it time and time again with extremely predictable regularity. You cannot take large numbers of trees of a steep slope and expect the slope to remain where it is.
Maybe i am extreme Ya know what? I DO NOT CARE!

Now i am not saying logging caused this slide I am saying that from Jennies pics it APPEARS as though the slope was heavily logged. Steep sloped should never ever ever ever be logged because they often slide. It's that simple Logging a steep slope is irresponsible behavior, Regardless of what a state agency permits to be logged a logging company out of good consience should refuse to log such slopes out of regular good old fashioned decency.

If logging companies are so willing to set aside set aside the health of our rivers and in fact our public saftey I say to heck with them. They are of no value to this country in any way shape or form. I am sure there are plenty of companies who would see the benefit of doing things responsibly. What the logging industry is a bunch of "Good old boys" who'll do anything for a buck. Thats my opinion. It is NOT a respectable industry as a whole..

Norm · 12-14-2003, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rebell:

The hillside contained 90% alder, it looks like it was logged 5 to 7 years ago. It looked like they went in and took the alder, but left the conifers. I looked for skid trails but did not notice any. They may have taken the wood out by helicopter. There was no evidence of a high lead operation there that I could see.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I hunted that area for fifteen years and I have seen lot's of similar slides in the past. There were probably six or seven slides in the area in 96. They are mostly caused by logging clear cuts. Not that I'm anti logging or a subject matter expert in the area of geology. But what I do know when you log an area it takes about seven years for the roots to die out from the harvested trees. When the roots die there is nothing holding the hillside together because the re-planted trees have not grown enough to establish a deep enough root structure. The result is what you have seen on Sam Downs road. I've watched it happen from clear cut to slide before. I've seen lots of helocopter logging operations on some of the more severe slopes above the kilches and miami. I guess it's too steep to log any other way.

The bottom line is we need to force better logging practices in the state forest. They could go in a selectivly log the steep stuff and leave half the trees to hold things together. Maybe even bigger stream buffers. It's "our" forest, not just a logging industry production shop. I for one don't think it's rocket science to figure it out, just some bad policy that need changing.

O.K., I'm finished venting and feel much better know :smile: .

Snapset · 12-14-2003, 08:09 PM

Looking at those pictures, I shmelk elk. In fact, I will be taking my son just up the hill from there next week to hunt. That is the elkiest country I have ever seen.

Jennie@ifish · 12-15-2003, 04:40 AM

I went out with Bill yesterday and he took pictures of the silt buildup in the chum spawning areas in our backyard.

It's really sad. :depressed:

Here they are:

[ 12-15-2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Straydog · 12-15-2003, 06:58 AM

Jen,

I am sorry to see this but am glad you and Bill are "on it", so to speak. Keep after it.

One thing evident in this thread in terms of resource extraction and it's consequences; denial is certainly alive and well in some circles.

Orange Heron · 12-15-2003, 07:49 AM

Jen,
Hang in there I know its tough on you. Mother Nature has a way of taking care of these things.

Rich

blackdog · 12-15-2003, 08:18 AM

I would have loved to see the reaction from the alarmists when that huge slide up the Wilson happened, what, about 10 years ago? The one that shut down Hwy 6 for a month or longer. If memory serves, there wasn't any recent logging in that area but it dumped probably 100 times the mud and silt this Sams Downs slide did. Plus, it was way upriver so it would have affected way more spawning ground. You would think by the recent reaction, every species would have been eradicated.

Face it, Mother Nature can be cruel at times, but all of God's creatures are pretty darned resilient. That doesn't mean I think we can take advantage of them, but it also doesn't mean we have to make a sanctuary out of the whole coast range. Leave that decision to the experts, not the average citizens. (No, I won't be signing the Tillamook 50/50 petition)

freespool · 12-15-2003, 09:55 AM

The Tillamook State Forest is a unique ecosystem made possible by several catastrophic fires. Now 50-60 years later we are deciding how we want to manage this huge piece of forested land. On one side we have those that say log it like any other timber sale. They also say we have the most comprehensive logging practices in place and little or no harm will be done to the environment. Then there are those that say this is the largest temperate rainforest in the lower 48. It is also the home to salmon and steelhead,arguably the best in the state. This group also says our logging practices are controlled by and for the timber industry. So along comes the Tillamook State Forest 50/50 plan,where half the forest is managed for timber and half is managed for fish habitat and recreation. Seems fair to all involved right? Wrong,the timber folks are crying foul. Why is that? Isn't half fair? No they want business as usual,cut as much as possible as fast as possible,maximize profit. They'll tell you they know best because they live there. Well fellow fishers they may live there but they don't own the TSF,it belongs to us,the people of Oregon. And now we have a chance to manage a large tract of timber with fish as an equal player with timber. Lets do it right this time and show the world there is a better way.

free

Norm · 12-15-2003, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackdog:
I would have loved to see the reaction from the alarmists when that huge slide up the Wilson happened, what, about 10 years ago? The one that shut down Hwy 6 for a month or longer. If memory serves, there wasn't any recent logging in that area but it dumped probably 100 times the mud and silt this Sams Downs slide did. Plus, it was way upriver so it would have affected way more spawning ground. You would think by the recent reaction, every species would have been eradicated.

Face it, Mother Nature can be cruel at times, but all of God's creatures are pretty darned resilient. That doesn't mean I think we can take advantage of them, but it also doesn't mean we have to make a sanctuary out of the whole coast range. Leave that decision to the experts, not the average citizens. (No, I won't be signing the Tillamook 50/50 petition)

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Natural slides happen, but roads and logging increase the slide risk by a factor of ~10X. This information was based on a study done in the MT Hood National forest after the 96 floods.

Bait O' Eggs · 12-15-2003, 10:31 AM

Blackdog, you are correct, the slide up the wilson was way worse (over a million yards if I remember correctly) near the top of the stream and the Wilson is still kicking out a couple fish.

Think of all that silt as a soft warm blanket to keep those eggs snuggled in the river bottom away from predators.

Little fish will pop out of that silt soon :grin:

freespool · 12-15-2003, 10:44 AM

Silt covering fish eggs= suffocation not insualation.

free

Reelentless · 12-15-2003, 12:07 PM

Jen,

I'm just quoting the law, not trying to change your mind.

The buffer widths for forest lands are as follows:

Small fish: 20-50 feet
Medium fish: 20-70 feet
Large fish: 20-100 feet

The widths are based on the amount of conifer basal area that makes up the buffer. Thats why they vary in width. A heavily stocked conifer buffer can be narrower than a buffer made up of hardwood.

These numbers weren't just pulled out of a hat. A lot of good science was used to determine what they should be.

Jennie@ifish · 12-15-2003, 12:14 PM

Right. And private land is 10.
(Can you even believe that???)
By the way, Bob Rees told me that. I don't know it is fact.

Jen

[ 12-15-2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Reelentless · 12-15-2003, 12:25 PM

What do mean by private? Private commercial like Weyerhaeuser? Or private meaning someone who owns property and cuts their trees for non-commercial uses?

If its the former, the rules I gave you apply.

For all state and private commercial forest land, 20 feet is the minimum buffer width on fish bearing streams. Thats it and thats all! :smile:

garyk · 12-15-2003, 12:40 PM

Looks like the "things have never been better" folks must have their heads in the silt.

Tillamook chum populations are a fraction of what they were in the post-Tilly-burn era.

Since the mid-1980's we've watched the Kilches & Miami chum steadily decline.

Despite a slight rebound the past two years the chum population is still severely depressed. Spawning as they do in the lowermost river reaches - where impacts accumulate - they're a good indicator of overall watershed health. And their decline suggests the impacts against them are still mounting - not getting better.

While the slide's introduction of gravel is beneficial, I do not think the Kilches is deficient in suitable spawning gravels. Unfortunately, the chum especially do not need their redds choked with silt, it's just one more strike against them.

While it is good to be hopeful, 'hope', is a poor management strategy.

Reelentless · 12-15-2003, 12:49 PM

GaryK- I don't think anyones head is in the silt. If good science suggests that the rules need to be changed, the timber industry will support it as they always have.

freespool · 12-15-2003, 01:04 PM

Now don't forget to say they can take all the large conifers that don't lean over the stream. So what you have is a alder, vinemaple, salmom berry brush buffer. All scientists don't agree,at least the ones that are not bought and paid for. Other than the mentality of "The only good tree is stump" what the heck is so bad about setting aside 3% of the harvestable doug fir? Because the timber interests don't want the TSF 50/50 plan to succeed in any way shape or form. This could set a trend that they would not care much for. This is not private land,it's public land,that means the public gets to decide how it's managed. That's the reason the petition is being circulated,so the people of our state can manage it their way,not the timber interest way. It is not in timbers best interest to have fish issues on an equal footing with logging.

free

[ 12-15-2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: freespool ]

Jennie@ifish · 12-15-2003, 01:07 PM

I don't know, and I'm no one to argue the case.
I'm sure if you e mail him you could find out. He is TGFwriter on this post.

All I know is what I see, and what I see isn't very pleasing to my eyes, poor vision or not.

I'm backing out of this one, cuz I see that there are heavy emotions and strong opinions involved here, and I don't like to get involved in that stuff much. I'd rather do something than to talk about who is right and who is wrong.

Anyhow, I guess to wrap it up, my feelings are that this world is very overcrowded and I see so many beautiful forests absolutely desomated. I can't help but think that if we don't plan ahead now, then our future and our children's future could be in grave jeopardy.

If we begin to plan now and save a few trees, then we win today. If we log it all, we won't get a second chance. It's gone. Poof! I kind of like to share my decisions and the fallout of those decisions with my kids. They deserve a say in it, because they will have to live with it. This isn't something that can be easily undone.

That's a frightening thought to me, as I don't really like permanent 'anythings'. :smile:

I'm not a tree hugging Berk wearing hippie (I don't think!), and I believe that logging has it's place, but I'd just like to learn a little about how things are being managed, and what things we need to be watchful for.

I've seen numerous scientists be dead wrong, before.

Before this, I didn't know anything about this whole thing. I still don't know much. What I've learned, however, concerns me, and I do plan on following up by listening very carefully to both sides of the story.

The immense beauty of old growth trees are something that I hold very dear to me, and I'm sure the salmon do, too. I hope that we all have great respect for our natural resources before we do things like grab the chainsaws.

Jen

blackdog · 12-15-2003, 01:21 PM

First off, I don't think letting public opinion rule the way a forest is 'managed' is truly managing it. A HUGE majority of those who signed the petition probably know nothing about forest management, only they don't like the looks of a clearcut.

Second, Jen, I guess I don't understand statements like "If we begin to plan now and save a few trees, then we win today. If we log it all, we won't get a second chance. It's gone. Poof!"

Nobody's talking about logging it all. The original TSF plan says nothing about logging it all, but it's also not a plan based on some arbitrary split that is at least partially emotionally driven. And even if it was all logged, we would get a second chance. Timber is a renewable resource. Trees grow back.