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Old 04-13-2012, 09:39 AM   #1
pass shooter
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Default buying/selling points?

can someone please explain how this works?

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

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Originally Posted by pass shooter View Post
can someone please explain how this works?
Buying points: Go to your local sporting goods store that has an ODFW point of sale and purchase a point for the species you wish. It is called a "point saver". 199 = deer, 299 = elk, etc. cost is $8.00 per point.

Selling points: You can't sell them......you can only redeem them on a hunt. Other friends and family members can benefit from your points by you being a party leader and all other applicants can join you on the application. ex. if you had 10 points and your buddy had 5 points, together you would have 15 points. Divide your points by 2 and your average is 7.5.........which actually rounds down to 7. So, your buddy gained 2 preference points................how much those two preference are worth to you and your buddy is for you to decide.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

that makes sense. what I am confused about is stuff like this. http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=403794
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

I'm sure this is going to get bigger. I have already seen a couple post to "sell" points, and one offer to "buy/trade" for points.
Basically a person has "..."points and offers to share them with someone in the same hunt for a price.
To the best of my knowledge it's not illegal and I think we will see more and more of it in the future.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

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Originally Posted by pass shooter View Post
that makes sense. what I am confused about is stuff like this. http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=403794
$2500 and you can pool your points with him. If you have 0 point's that means you will both effectively have 7.

If you chose to do this I would be sure to put in for a hunt you will draw for sure. Unless of course he is willing to give you a refund if you don't draw.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:45 AM   #6
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

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Originally Posted by Sunnygx View Post
$2500 and you can pool your points with him. If you have 0 point's that means you will both effectively have 7.

If you chose to do this I would be sure to put in for a hunt you will draw for sure. Unless of course he is willing to give you a refund if you don't draw.
interesting. thank you guys for the clarification. this is the first I have heard of this.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

Anyone can be a party leader for a hunt. That person comingles his points with the points of other people to develop an average number of points for all participants. Half points are rounded down. Over half point averages are rounded up. There are all kinds of situations and strategies that could come into play associated with how many points are necessary to get drawn for the desired hunt. You need not know or be a friend of a party leader. The party leader does not have to be present or participate directly with you on the hunt. One is only sharing his points to draw a desired hunt. If there is an advantage to combining points there may be value associated with that that would entice someone to pay to create that situation. Value would be determined by individual circumstance, desire, and level of financial investment. You cannot sell points. You can only use them in a draw. Unless the shared point total would clearly guarantee receipt of the desired tag I would recommend having a rebate clause to account for failure. Apparently there is a legal market developing for those that wish to sell their services as party leader.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

You "buy" points for wife, daughter, granny, grandpa, and vegetarian sis...once you have done this for 10-20 years, you offer to "buddy up" with someone who has more money than common sense....for a fee of course. You then have a magical number of points by averaging with the other person!!

Try it...it's all the rage. only downside is that once my son gets to the age to draw for himself....it will be a money game just like everything else.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

There are ways that ODFW could address this, but there may be legal concerns to many of the options?! If they are alarmed. I dunno one way or the other. One of the simpler ways to cut the legs out from under the currently legal free enterprise methods that have hit the tabloids is to make the entirety of a party application equal to the lowest common denominator of the group. Other state/s use this effectively to prevent a secondary market for preference points.

If person A had 12 points and person B had 4 points then under Oregon's current system they average 8 points and person B advanced 4 years of applying. What is that worth? Whatever someone is willing to pay of course. If they limited it to lowest common denominator then both would be 4 in the drawing and there would be no incentive to sell or deal with the 12 point man. This would not prevent anyone with 12 from using them on a 12 point hunt so no disadvantage to an individual application. It would stop the "selling" of points cold, but it would certainly affect how all hunters manage points and the party. There could be pitfalls for "legitimate" party hunts. For better or worse? I'm confident there are those that would strongly defend either side of the debate. Some people have always chosen to wait their turn at the elementary drinking fountain and others have been comfortable enough to bargain their way to the front.

With Oregon's true preference point creep/backlog of higher end point holders/lack of sufficient premium tags and hunts this development was inevitable. Was this thoroughly considered before the true preference point system was put in place 20 years ago? Either way will the rules be changed as the game evolves? Million dollar question . . . like will America ever make significant changes to the social security system?
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

I actually don't see this as being much of a problem in the future.

It has been going on for years. If money exchanges hands somewhere along the line then so be it.

The reality of it is that most Antelope hunts take about 10 -15 points to draw. If I had 6 points and needed 12 to get a tag, then my Party Leader would need to have 18 points. Highly unlikely to happen.

Also, a guy who is approaching enough points to draw the Wenaha archery elk hunt is not going to set himself back 5- 10 more years just to possibly make $2500. Again, highly unlikely.

I suppose there could be lots of applicants with 6 deer points and someone with 0 might pay $ to draw a Silvies buck tag. (advances them 3 years). However, Most guys will wait 2-3 years to draw a tag rather than pay $2500.

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Old 04-14-2012, 06:06 AM   #11
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

Wouldnt it be cheaper to just start having family that doesnt hunt start putting in for point savers, at your expense. A few members with points and yourself partying up with them one season at a time, cheaper and still getting to draw more often, just saying. But if you want to buy them go ahead.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

So, if I buy a point from ODFW isn't mine to do what I want to do with it? after all I own the point no one else.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:28 AM   #13
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

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Originally Posted by blacktail rattler View Post
Wouldnt it be cheaper to just start having family that doesnt hunt start putting in for point savers, at your expense. A few members with points and yourself partying up with them one season at a time, cheaper and still getting to draw more often, just saying. But if you want to buy them go ahead.
I'm sure that many people are already doing this. In fact maybe I'm going to start having my wife apply for just this reason. When I draw on my own points and restart at ZERO the following year I can apply with her as the party leader, Essentially I will "BUY" them from her since she don't hunt.

Don't tell her but I've already paid for them... over and over and over again.

Seriously though I feel like when the purchasing of preference points evolves into an investment strategy it's way past time to overhaul the entire system. Legal or not? To me the whole concept of "Selling" points seems insulting to the sport.

Anybody want to "Buy" 16 points for Antlerless Yeti?
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishin' is livin' View Post
You "buy" points for wife, daughter, granny, grandpa, and vegetarian sis...once you have done this for 10-20 years, you offer to "buddy up" with someone who has more money than common sense....for a fee of course. You then have a magical number of points by averaging with the other person!!

Try it...it's all the rage. only downside is that once my son gets to the age to draw for himself....it will be a money game just like everything else.
OK, lets do some math. You want to do a hunt that takes 10 points, but you want to keep hunting your normal unit. Since you are using your points every few years, let's assume you will have no points.

You buy 5 points a year for 5 of your non hunting family members at $37.5 a pop (29.5 license and 8 point fee). If you buy them for 12 years, your "group" will have 60 points and you will now have enough to go on your hunt. In those 12 years, you just spent $2,250 to get your hunt. I say more power to you, and ODFW thanks you for the funds.

Remember though, this only works if everything goes perfect. Nobody can get divorced, die, or move out of state.
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Old 04-14-2012, 03:08 PM   #15
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by millsymojo View Post
There are ways that ODFW could address this, but there may be legal concerns to many of the options?! If they are alarmed. I dunno one way or the other. One of the simpler ways to cut the legs out from under the currently legal free enterprise methods that have hit the tabloids is to make the entirety of a party application equal to the lowest common denominator of the group. Other state/s use this effectively to prevent a secondary market for preference points.

If person A had 12 points and person B had 4 points then under Oregon's current system they average 8 points and person B advanced 4 years of applying. What is that worth? Whatever someone is willing to pay of course. If they limited it to lowest common denominator then both would be 4 in the drawing and there would be no incentive to sell or deal with the 12 point man. This would not prevent anyone with 12 from using them on a 12 point hunt so no disadvantage to an individual application. It would stop the "selling" of points cold, but it would certainly affect how all hunters manage points and the party. There could be pitfalls for "legitimate" party hunts. For better or worse? I'm confident there are those that would strongly defend either side of the debate. Some people have always chosen to wait their turn at the elementary drinking fountain and others have been comfortable enough to bargain their way to the front.

With Oregon's true preference point creep/backlog of higher end point holders/lack of sufficient premium tags and hunts this development was inevitable. Was this thoroughly considered before the true preference point system was put in place 20 years ago? Either way will the rules be changed as the game evolves? Million dollar question . . . like will America ever make significant changes to the social security system?

I am a little troubled about why anyone cares if someone "sells" points. I'm trying to figure out what difference it makes.

If a person has been accumulating points to the extent that they are marketable then he has put quite a bit of revenue into the system without taking any game. For 16 years I did not take one elk out of eastern Oregon because I was accumulating points. If I had split those pts. with someone at some point, as party leaders are known to do, what's the beef? Likewise, if I sold the use of my points by diluting my points with others who cares? This still results in revenue to ODFW with little game taken.

There's not going to be a big black market because quite frankly the points just aren't worth much. I can't think of many scenarios I would be willing to engage in buying points from someone. Even if you tried to do it on a relatively large scale by buying points for all your non-hunting friends in volume the money is just not there in the long run. You might make some chump change here and there, but not enough for all the headaches of spending $37.50 a pop minimum every year times how ever many people to market them into a big profit, especially on the hunts that take 15-18 pts. Simply not worth much.

The only hunts it might make sense with would be Spring Bear where the premium hunts take just a few points. If you had a bunch of people you were 'sponsoring' with 4 and 5 pts. coming on every year that you could split there would be a little money in that because of the people that would like to draw a tag almost every year. But even at that it wouldn't be worth a lot for most of us. And if you were one of the folks that bought the right to share points every year and drew every year you wouldn't accumulate your own points so it would be an endless cycle of buying points. I might pay something to hunt my favorite bear unit every spring, but not that much.

I wouldn't pay anything to to split somebodies 14 bull points regardless of what number I had. If someone has 14 Wenaha bull pts. and wants to go this year and he finds someone with 18 that is willing to split it might be worth something. I'm still trying to figure out what the monetary incentive (other than just a few bucks) would be to split 14 pts down into some mediocre hunt. Who is willing to spend much money at all to split 14 pts. to get a 7 pt hunt draw? If you could actually buy the points in their entirety.....now that would be worth some coin. If I could buy 16 bull pts. I would. I can't. I sure as hell wouldn't pay much to get the one time opportunity to split points and wind up with 7 pts. unless I knew of one truly stupendous bull I thought I could tie up and kill.

(As far as your comment about Social Security.......the cap is presently $106,000 then you don't pay any more. That number was established way back when people did not earn nearly as much as we do today. If we raised the cap to somewhere around 200K to 250K SS would be solvent for the next upteen years. One simple move solves most of it. This idea has been beaten back by 'you know who' who go out of there way to protect corporations and their rich cronies everytime it comes up while they are clamoring for someone to gut the system because it's going to go broke. They play to the lowest common denominator among us to spin their arguments. This adjustment should have been made long ago. Why not everyone pay their fair share? We seem to be so in awe of the uber-wealthy that we honor them by not requiring them to pay the same as the rest of us......go figure. (Oh I know....trickle down.....except the only thing that trickles down is poverty...while power trickles up).

Whoops! Just rambling on....sign off.
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Last edited by blueduck; 04-14-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 03:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etonfish View Post
OK, lets do some math. You want to do a hunt that takes 10 points, but you want to keep hunting your normal unit. Since you are using your points every few years, let's assume you will have no points.

You buy 5 points a year for 5 of your non hunting family members at $37.5 a pop (29.5 license and 8 point fee). If you buy them for 12 years, your "group" will have 60 points and you will now have enough to go on your hunt. In those 12 years, you just spent $2,250 to get your hunt. I say more power to you, and ODFW thanks you for the funds.

Remember though, this only works if everything goes perfect. Nobody can get divorced, die, or move out of state.
That would equal $2250 for 5 consecutive hunts after 12 yrs so that would equal $450 a year average, if you plan ahead and start saving points. Seems more logical than paying a large price tag for someone else to do the same thing. If you cant wait and have the cash, go for it.
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

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Originally Posted by blueduck View Post
I am a little troubled about why anyone cares if someone "sells" points. I'm trying to figure out what difference it makes.

If a person has been accumulating points to the extent that they are marketable then he has put quite a bit of revenue into the system without taking any game. For 16 years I did not take one elk out of eastern Oregon because I was accumulating points. If I had split those pts. with someone at some point, as party leaders are known to do, what's the beef? Likewise, if I sold the use of my points by diluting my points with others who cares? This still results in revenue to ODFW with little game taken.

There's not going to be a big black market because quite frankly the points just aren't worth much. I can't think of many scenarios I would be willing to engage in buying points from someone. Even if you tried to do it on a relatively large scale by buying points for all your non-hunting friends in volume the money is just not there in the long run. You might make some chump change here and there, but not enough for all the headaches of spending $37.50 a pop minimum every year times how ever many people to market them into a big profit, especially on the hunts that take 15-18 pts. Simply not worth much.

The only hunts it might make sense with would be Spring Bear where the premium hunts take just a few points. If you had a bunch of people you were 'sponsoring' with 4 and 5 pts. coming on every year that you could split there would be a little money in that because of the people that would like to draw a tag almost every year. But even at that it wouldn't be worth a lot for most of us. And if you were one of the folks that bought the right to share points every year and drew every year you wouldn't accumulate your own points so it would be an endless cycle of buying points. I might pay something to hunt my favorite bear unit every spring, but not that much.

I wouldn't pay anything to to split somebodies 14 bull points regardless of what number I had. If someone has 14 Wenaha bull pts. and wants to go this year and he finds someone with 18 that is willing to split it might be worth something. I'm still trying to figure out what the monetary incentive (other than just a few bucks) would be to split 14 pts down into some mediocre hunt. Who is willing to spend much money at all to split 14 pts. to get a 7 pt hunt draw? If you could actually buy the points in their entirety.....now that would be worth some coin. If I could buy 16 bull pts. I would. I can't. I sure as hell wouldn't pay much to get the one time opportunity to split points and wind up with 7 pts. unless I knew of one truly stupendous bull I thought I could tie up and kill.

(As far as your comment about Social Security.......the cap is presently $106,000 then you don't pay any more. That number was established way back when people did not earn nearly as much as we do today. If we raised the cap to somewhere around 200K to 250K SS would be solvent for the next upteen years. One simple move solves most of it. This idea has been beaten back by 'you know who' who go out of there way to protect corporations and their rich cronies everytime it comes up while they are clamoring for someone to gut the system because it's going to go broke. They play to the lowest common denominator among us to spin their arguments. This adjustment should have been made long ago. Why not everyone pay their fair share? We seem to be so in awe of the uber-wealthy that we honor them by not requiring them to pay the same as the rest of us......go figure. (Oh I know....trickle down.....except the only thing that trickles down is poverty...while power trickles up).

Whoops! Just rambling on....sign off.
blueduck

I think you may have misunderstood my intent in posting?! I was simply making an effort to factually explain certain components of "the selling of points" to the OP. I only added the method in which ODFW could hinder it to show that either their "hands are tied" or they are not bothered by the activity. I was not advocating the change to system per say. While I can empathize with those who are frustrated by the bargaining of points I personally am not troubled by most of that activity to any great degree.

As far as the social security remark that jump started your blue passions . . . . I was not, at that time, taking a position. I used it as a humorous (maybe not so much?) way to reveal that there are two sides to any worthwhile debate, and both sides often believe strongly in their side of the argument. I respect your opinion and while it is likely that we would see some points of that particular debate differently there are other points of the discussion where we would find commonality. I don't wish to engage on the internet because I believe it could lead to frustration and hard feelings. I do not wish that for you and I. I would, however, be greatly interested in meeting your acquaintance over beer and pizza the next time I'm "home" in the NW. I am willing to bet we could discuss that in a few short minutes before turning our thoughts to the great outdoors. . . . and becoming friends. Who knows, maybe we can share hunting camp someday?!
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

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Originally Posted by millsymojo View Post
blueduck

I think you may have misunderstood my intent in posting?! I was simply making an effort to factually explain certain components of "the selling of points" to the OP. I only added the method in which ODFW could hinder it to show that either their "hands are tied" or they are not bothered by the activity. I was not advocating the change to system per say. While I can empathize with those who are frustrated by the bargaining of points I personally am not troubled by most of that activity to any great degree.

As far as the social security remark that jump started your blue passions . . . . I was not, at that time, taking a position. I used it as a humorous (maybe not so much?) way to reveal that there are two sides to any worthwhile debate, and both sides often believe strongly in their side of the argument. I respect your opinion and while it is likely that we would see some points of that particular debate differently there are other points of the discussion where we would find commonality. I don't wish to engage on the internet because I believe it could lead to frustration and hard feelings. I do not wish that for you and I. I would, however, be greatly interested in meeting your acquaintance over beer and pizza the next time I'm "home" in the NW. I am willing to bet we could discuss that in a few short minutes before turning our thoughts to the great outdoors. . . . and becoming friends. Who knows, maybe we can share hunting camp someday?!

Thank you. Whatever you do don't take anything I say too seriously......I don't. Most of the time I am just brainstorming. I like to look at issues from a number of different perspectives and counterpoint to balance things out a little. Usually if I am out to lunch somebody lets me know.

I was just saying that I don't see much profit in the point selling business. Might work to someones advantage in a few scenarios, but it is much less likely to work on the high-end premium hunts where it takes a bunch of points. A couple of guys with upper tier points could mutually benefit one another, but large point holders splitting their points with low point holders doesn't give you much. My daughter has been getting points for years. At some point we will share a spring bear hunt and a couple of other mediocre hunts if my points are down. In another year or so if she doesn't want to bear hunt she could sell her 6 or so points to two guys with no points and they would all average 2pts. which would give you a pretty fair hunt. Chances are she'll go or split them with me. Next year we will have 8 between us.

As far as the SS debate goes it's tough to navigate through all the BS. We'll find a way to keep it solvent. It does so much for our overall stability. Losing it is not an option unless people can't remember what was going on when it came into existence. Anyway take care. Looks like you are all over the place. Maybe an interesting occupation?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etonfish View Post
OK, lets do some math. You want to do a hunt that takes 10 points, but you want to keep hunting your normal unit. Since you are using your points every few years, let's assume you will have no points.

You buy 5 points a year for 5 of your non hunting family members at $37.5 a pop (29.5 license and 8 point fee). If you buy them for 12 years, your "group" will have 60 points and you will now have enough to go on your hunt. In those 12 years, you just spent $2,250 to get your hunt. I say more power to you, and ODFW thanks you for the funds.

Remember though, this only works if everything goes perfect. Nobody can get divorced, die, or move out of state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktail rattler View Post
That would equal $2250 for 5 consecutive hunts after 12 yrs so that would equal $450 a year average, if you plan ahead and start saving points. Seems more logical than paying a large price tag for someone else to do the same thing. If you cant wait and have the cash, go for it.
No, if you wanted to do 5 consecutive year's on a 10point hunt you would have to wait until the 20 year mark. At 37.50 a year X 20 years X 5 party members that's $3750 or $750 per tag after 20years. Now that's not factoring in a points creep or cost increases. And you are also more or less giving your money to these 5 people, hopefully they don't XXXX you over at about the 18year mark.

The whole buying points for all the non hunters you know idea works fine for the small ticket hunts, but is not really viable (in my mind) for the big ticket hunts we all pine for. Same goes for selling points, works for the guy who just wants a small tag but does not really work to help anybody draw a premium tag.

I say if people are willing to pay X amount of dollars to burn a big point holders share on a low points tag then more power to them. Let them burn there points and we will get them out of the race for the premium tag.

Last edited by Sunnygx; 04-15-2012 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:20 AM   #20
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Default Re: buying/selling points?

you wouldn't have to split their points if you bought them for your kids to mentor with.The catch would be that the guy you were buying the points from would need to tag along.

also, a guy with 8 points could buy the points from a guy with 14 points and with an 11 point Average would be able to go hunt say a mill creek watershed,mt.emily archery, or alot of other hunts.
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