cant sign fee increase letter

[Clackman]

i wish i could support the fee increase but i feel signing something like that says i blindly support how our money is being spent as long as it is something i like.I think the people of ore are being held hostage by our state.if in hard times you cant live with the same buget as last year you have a spending problem not a shortfall. i have alot of reasons i beleive our money is being stolen by some and misspent by some. i know this opinon may not be popular but i wanted to voice why i cant sign the letter.

[fishing is life]

good point on knowing where your dollar is being used. i support the increase because i thought it would help keep the 3 hatcheries they were thinking of closing, open.

[lucky strike]

that was well said, Clackman! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[CAGEY]

I gave my support to the cause. But like you i had some real soul searching to do befor i added my name. Iam very concerned that the any fee increase may not go where we the fishermen want it to go. I just have 0 trust in our politicians. Think positive. Maybe they will add the fee increase to the 5 million they have set aside to buy pictures for their state buildings. A nice colored photo of an extinct fishermen would be nice.

[OceanBlue]

Personally, I believe in paying for the services I use. I don't see why my neighbor, who doesn't hunt or fish, would care to support this resource... or why he should.

I, too, am concerned that the funds be allocated ONLY to ODFW... There is little I can do about that except continue to let my representatives know how I feel about it.

[Straydog]

Cagey,

I would be very interested in your source of the notion of 5m being set aside for pictures. (please give me more than "I heard it on the radio."

As a general thought, it makes for a good sound bite to say the state should live within it' means like a household does.

The problem is, our state keeps growing thus the means must keep growing. Further,at least in many parts of the state, the growth is coming from retired folks. Retired folks generally pay less income tax than working folks, thus less money going into our funding base per person living in our State.

Gimme a sales tax and reduce income tax!

[fishchaser]

I don't use TRIMET, but I have to pay taxes on that, Why can't someone who doesn't use the resources help pay? I have to.

Don't get me wrong, I am for a fee increase IF IT GOES TO ODFW. I just don't want them to tell me I must pay more, and it goes to the GENERAL FUND, like the licence plate deal. I thought that was to help with the Salmon Enhancement, but that just goes straight to the general fund. I think only .10% goes to the salmon enhancement.

[ 02-04-2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: fishchaser ]

[Straydog]

The economic benefit generated by sportfishing and hunting helps nearly everyone in this state in some fashion.

[WaterDog]

The only reservation I have about the fee increases is that we may be heading down the road that some may say is “elitist”. I have no problem paying for the services I use either, but for the folks that may only fish a few times a year with their kid for trout , we may be pricing them out of this sport. I certainly don’t want fishing of any sort to become an activity that only those with a decent income can afford.

[Straydog]

WaterDog,

Excellant point and the only one that gave me a reason to pause before supporting the fee increase.

That is why I am glad to see them going for an Ave. of $5 rather than the doubling or $20 I have seen suggested by some.

We cannot price the average family out of our sport or we will lose a very important element as well as deny kids an opportunity to learn life skills in a family oriented activity.

[Hogmaster]

Oh boy, here we go yet again.

Here is one other reason why you might want to consider support of the idea.

Have you heard how much in deferred maintenance there is associated with the hatcheries? It is sort of akin to ignoring the fact that your house needs painting. Wait long enough and secondary and tertiary problems crop up. These additional funds COULD help in the area of getting the basic maintenance required done.

The additional fees can be made to be properly spent. That is where you can play a part. Suspicion, heresay, or otherwise misdirected energies won't solve any problems. What will is personal attention and involvement! Make the people and processes accountable if you don't feel they are right. Complaining for complaining's sake has not, and will not, solve the issues to your satisfaction.

And while there is a wide circle of positive economic impact surrounding the fact that fishermen and women and children fish, and the hatcheries help ensure that, who better to show support of [our] collective passion than us?

GET INVOLVED if you really don't like the way it is!



[ 02-04-2003, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

[fishchaser]

Good point you dogs, (WD, and SD) If we put the cost out reach of young families, where do we expect to get the money from in the future? Thes young kids these day would not be able to afford to fish and that leads to their kids too. If we don't teach our children now than the next generation will not learn either.

We need something to keep out kids out of danger, and trouble NOW, not when it's too late.

If we put the price so high now, we will never get parent to go out and spend quality time with their children.

[lost_sailor]

You say "the people" are being held hostage by "the state" ...

The way this deal works, see, is WE ARE THE STATE.

Get involved, but try to be positive about it!

I went to a school board meeting last night, now THAT was discouraging.

[Straydog]

Sailor,

I don't know what district you are in but if anything like ours, I would bet you were one of no more than 6 parents that attended.

Yet, most will tell you all about how the schools are run and how fat they are with money, administrators and unneeded activities.......

The message is clear and can not be repeated enough.......... GET INVOLVED!!
Or, as some would say, "Lead, follow or get out of the way!"

[ 02-04-2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[will_e_fish]

My neighbors most of them like fish but dont very often. Informed and itelligent most of them see the importance of hatcheries and schools. Fee increases are supported as long as benefits are realized and tangible. Paying for services is understandable. However for the greater good of us all, even though some dont fish or have kids in school, it is important to run both these programs at a high level of quality.

[skein]

In one of the many, many threads on today's meeting there was a brief mention of Washington (state) lowering their tags and fees. They figured they would sell more and thereby raise more actual dollars. I lost track of the discussion, or it never went anywhere, but that was my biggest concern.

Sorta like the carnivals who charge way too much for a kid to ride, then run the merry-go-round with 40 empty horses. Let's see, 6 riders at .75 is 4.50 and 40 riders at .25 is 10.00.

Are we doing the math wrong?

Skein

[HawgJaw]

If I'm not mistaken, kids fish for free in Oregon. Is that changing with this increase?

[lost_sailor]

Kids under 14 free. Juvenile (14-17) fee, $4 is not increased.

[Gus Orviston]

My concern is if we raise the Fees, then that amount of dollars coming from the general fund gets reduced by that amount. Leaving the the NET benefit at zero... do I trust the right thing to be done...no?

gus

[Tanner]

Straydog,
In defense of Cagey.

http://www.nwbca.org/culturaltrust/

Not all of the funding for this comes from taxes. Some of it comes from donations from philanthropists that, by the way, recieve pretty substantial tax credits for their donation. So it comes out of our taxes in a round about way.

And yes, the current budget for this is 5 million dollars.

You said our state keeps growing thus the means should continue to grow. Does that, or should that include the millions of dollars per year this state spends on providing the growing population of already convicted criminals with attorney's so they can appeal their case (Which by the way, has already been decided by a jury of their peers).

I can go on and on about all the wasteful spending our state government is involved in but frankly, this is not the forum to do so.
Before publicly doubting what someone says maybe you should do a little research to see if their is merit in what was said.

Somebody above said it perfectly, We are being held hostage by our own state government.

I will pay a fee increase because I love fishing, but I have and will continue to let government know that I am not at all happy with the job they are doing for me.

[GutshotApe]

The proposed $5 license increase and $5 tag increase would mean fishing in Oregon is still one of the best bargains around. Compared to other outdoor activities like skiing, college or pro sports, golf, etc. fishing licenses are cheap. I read somewhere that if fishing licenses had kept pace with inflation over the past 40 years they would now be about $40.

Be thankful its only $5 or $10.

\edit\: ps. License and tag fees go straight to ODFW, not to the general fund.

[ 02-04-2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[Pilar]

Good point, Gus Orviston. As long as the general fund dollars go into F & W this will be a problem. Any increase in fees will be offset by a reduction of support for ODFW from the general fund.

I say you can count on that .... just like you can count on the introductory 2% rate for a sales tax lasting only until the first budget crisis, if that long.

The 'crisis' if you want to call it that is directly related to Government unable to live within its means. When times were good the money got spent and programs created or increased without regard for our current situation. The level of propaganda and scare perpetrated on the taxpayers by the vested interests is inexcusable.

Recall the license tab fiasco in Washington state. Life went on there right? The dire predictions were political crap and you do not hear about them anymore.

I will spend the extra on a fishing license. Fact is that it would have to become much more expensive before I would not buy a license. I just have to hope that the money makes it to ODFW and the hatcheries and not to some bureaucrat's salary increase or the PERS debt.

[ 02-04-2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[CAGEY]

Waterdog,
Check out the state budget. They have set 5 mil in the budget for the arts. Iam told to buy pictures and art in general and to support the arts. To hell with that. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

[WaterDog]

Cagey,

You arguing with the right Dog? You can thank the legislators and their bleeding heart liberal supporters for requiring that public facilities are required to spend 1% of the construction cost for arts. Why? Who knows. I guess it’s the politically correct thing to do. Don’t wanna leave anyone out you know. Even if they are a drain on the system. Sounds like welfare for artists to me.

[TJB]

Please forgive my ignorance but how much money is currently taken in from licenses and how much is budgeted?

[CAGEY]

WaterDog, Sorry about that. That was meant for for Straydog.

Straydog,

I think most of us agree that an increase in funds would be ok if it was handled right. It is to bad that those who fish a day or two have to pay the same as those of us who live on the water but can you imagine how the goverment could screw that up?

A sales tax, ok, do you promise that it will replace some other taxes? If so sign me up.

Yes demands on state funds have increased and will continue to do so. It is just that the tax money they get now is wasted in so many ways that most tax payers have no trust left.

Retired folks pay less taxe's because they
make less money.

I hope i have answered your questions.

See Jenny we can argue without getting nasty.


THANKYOU TANNER...WELL SAID

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by TJB:
Please forgive my ignorance but how much money is currently taken in from licenses and how much is budgeted?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I don't know the dollar amounts but the total ODFW budget is about 40% license & tag fees, 8-10% general fund and 50% federal funds. I think UglyGreen has a copy of the proposed budget with the actual numbers.

[Straydog]

Tanner, Cagey, Waterdog,

I am real glad I doubted publicly and appreciate you providing me the proof that Cagey's statement that the 5m is for pictures "for their offices" is, as expected, simply not true. My instincts told me research was not needed and you have proven me correct.

I offer a qoute from the link posted.

"Funds will be distributed three ways: (1) to counties and tribes to support local cultural projects and collaborations; (2) through competitive grants that support cultural projects of regional and statewide significance; and (3) through additional funds to Oregon's cultural agencies to support collaborative partnerships and ongoing statewide efforts. "

It is just this sort of talk radio sensationalism that does nothing but cloud the issues.

Is there waste in Gov.? Yes.

Is there enough to be found to fix our budget shortfalls. Nope.

Stay tuned and see what takes place.
There will be monies found but it won't be anywhere near the amount needed to fill our gaps.

Rather than repeat false sensationalism, let's work together and hold our elected officals feet to the fire to spend our monies responsibly.

Talk radio rhetoric is good for selling radio but little else I am afraid.

edit...... I know retired people pay less taxes because they make less. That is my point....... we rely on income taxes for the foundation of our funding. We are growing with retired folks that are paying less than working folks. Thus, the income growth to the state budget is not keeping up with the growth in services. I was not asking a question, but thanks for thinking you answered one! :whazzup:

one more edit........ I see this arts bill "passed the Oregon House on June 30 by a vote of 53 to 3, then the Oregon Senate on July 3 by a vote of 25 to 3."

Oh those darned bleeding heart liberal Republicans voting for welfare for artists........... ya just can't trust em!!! :tongue:

[ 02-04-2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[SoundsFishy]

I'm all for reasonable increases in fees, 3% to 5% or so. Anything more is a little unreasonable. The Consumer Price Index is about 2% per year right now. Lets at least make sure they have the same buying power to operate and maintain the hatcheries that they had in the previous budget.

Only problem is that the ODFW is not a fee only supported agency. If they lose the tax money, they need to increase fees substantially to make up for it. It is a tough decision.

[Clackman]

stray dog i dont believe their can be a buget shortfall if it is a increase also you say that waste will be found but not enugh i think it totals at least 10 times what we need.

[Navigator]

Well said Tanner. Good discussion.

At the hearing today, the message was about all the things people value about Oregon's fish and wildlife resources - opportunities for kids, disabled, family, fishing, hunting - making a living, economy. Supporting the fee increase keeps these things on the table so we can discuss how best to provide them. Otherwise, these things start to wink out - the same way schools, public safety and health care are winking out in this state. We get use to it and government gets no better.

I am not saying we should feed government so we get decent services at an inefficient cost. But pulling the money doesn't get government to wise up. We loose essential services and still have ineffective inefficiencies in the services still being provided.

The answer lies in getting government more accountable to how the money is spent - and I believe with the testimony today we articulated the yardstick on what ODFW's decisions will be judged by - with or without a fee increase.

But I agree - government is not being accountable (and I work for government). For example, why hasn't the Portland School Board adopted as a binding principle that not one child will loose one day of school this school year and then work the budget cuts off that. That forces them to furlough administrators, management and make the real tough decisions. They still may not be able to uphold the principle (no lost school days), but they would get a lot closer and in doing so, show some accountability to their mission (education).

This is what irks (and scares me) about the current mess we are in is that Government is "getting use to" cutting school days, releasing inmates, laying off state troopers, dropping health care payments, cutting payments to the elderly, closing schools, increasing class sizes to 50 [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

We all suffer and lack of government accountability continues. It is a viscious spiral. Change will come when we find courageous leaders that will furlough a principal half time to keep a teacher in the classroom full time. Government is never been good about making those kind of decisions.

And by the way, neither has corporate business .....

I seem to have digressed.

[ 02-04-2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Navigator ]

[Jennie@ifish]

Keep asking questions! Keep doubting! Keep being curious and unsettled!
And find out the answers!!!

This is a great discussion!

Jen

[jkfrabel]

I posted this in a different post but feel this post is more appropriate. Sorry

I agree with all the above post 100%.

.My questions are this; will the $5.00 increase really make a difference? What’s going to happen next year when there is another budget shortfall? Are we going to go through this all over again? If so how much are we willing to spend to try to save a sinking ship? Is the increase going to be affordable to all the people in the state that enjoy the resources or is fishing/hunting going to become a sport that only the upper middle class rich can enjoy? What is going to happen when they increase the fees to a point that only a few are going to be willing to pay? Will it cause an increase in poaching? Where is the extra money going to come from for increased law enforcement?

I know that if they close those hatcheries it is going to affect the coastal communities that depend on the revenue generated from the sport fishing. I just don’t think that a fee increase is really going to solve anything other than patching a hole in a sinking ship.

I guess the reason I'm not going to sign the fee increase is because, there are a lot of unanswered questions. I honestly dont believe that the hatcheries are going to get that much of the extra money or enough to save them in the long term.

[Straydog]

Clackman,

Four words:

Show me the money.

It is simple. For one complete legislative session and five special sessions the right wing of the Legislature has said just what you say that, paraphrasing, there is a bunch of money to be had that will bail us out.

They, just like you, have failed to prove that.

I will be waiting to see the money.

Unfortunately, I will be waiting with less police protection for my family, fewer days in school for my daughter, more mentally ill people roaming my town, more hungry people becoming desperate and committing more crime, worse roads on which to travel and possilby fewer fish to fish for.

That is a big difference in this argument. You and others say the money is there with little proof and less action. The cuts are very real and are happening as I type.

One more time, very simply, show me the money.

[CAGEY]

Straydog

You use the term "bleeding heart republicans". In my book it doe's not matter if its a republican or a democrat, they all make sure that they fulfill their own agenda. It would not matter if a republican was in favor of giving millions to remedy our fish problems. A democrat would resist it. And the same would happen if it was the other way around.

As for the statement " money is for pictures". That was just a little venting on my part. From what i can find out the money is there and being used for things that i dont think it should be. But then others may think it should be used for a photo of the tribes selling fish out of their trusty rusty pickup. (sorry, i could not resist that).

[kodiakfisher]

Just a quick question, just as the state needs more money to keep up with a growing population...this is also a persuasive sound bite.

Where do I sign up for more money because my family grew by 33%? What am I to do :whazzup: I asked my employer for more money and they handed me a pink slip. Guess what I'm adjusting my budget and spending habits. Just like the state needs to do. No matter how loud I yell that my daughter needs health insurance I'm not going to get anymore money to pay for it.

We all seem to agree the state is wasting our dollars. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] If we give the state more money what incentive do they have to eliminate waste. If we keep voting down tax increases this will surely make the state operate more efficiently.

Question how come Beaverton doesn't have to eliminate as many school days as Portland? I'm pretty sure it's because Beaverton managed their money better than the Portland school district. The problem seems to be poor management of available funds not lack of funds. Let's not reward poor funds management with more money. Do we all remember what happened when social security's funds were put into the general fund by our government. How long did it take for Social Security to start having problems.

Stepping of the soap box now [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Kodiakfisher

[Straydog]

Cagey,

The Republican comment was my normal sarcasm because they obviously voted for this but it is generally the Dems. that are refered to as bleeding heart liberals.
Unfortunatley you are right that there are generally countering points of view and votes. However, as seen in the vote counts quoted, both parties pretty well agreed on the Arts Commission legislation.

Kodiak,

The fatal flaws of your argument are that you had a choice to grow your family or not, assuming there was not a **** involved. The State does not have that ability.

Further, you have the ability to drop your daughters health insurance as a cost cutting measure. Contractual and legislative obligations inhibit what cuts the State can make. Were our School Dist. able to just stop paying for health insurance for it's employees, it would have very little money problems, believe me.

As you can see, it simply isn't possilbe to compare the budgeting of the Gov. to that of a famly, the playing field is just not level.

[ 02-05-2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[RvW]

How exactly does a common citizen find out exactly where the funds go when they are paid out, I mean in more than just general terms like "$20 goes to pay for a hatchery" Because they cant be getting all these sophisticated online terminals, printing the yearly release of regs, paying commisions to the vendors for license sales and every other not so hidden cost out there to keep the system churning enough to see a little trickle down reach the hatchery itself.. I mean is there any real benefit to having a *** terminal to issue a printed license? do it the old fashioned way, write a darn license, and off you go.

I agree that we cant price Oregon families out of the fishing market, but tell me, how much does gear cost these days? How much do cured eggs cost? For that matter, look at what most kids are interested in these days, music (a CD is what $16? for ONE CD!)
video games are upwards of $45...tennis shoes are $50.
I think there should be more of a sacrifice made on the anglers behalf because its our fishereies who are taking the beating, not the poor family who cannot afford to fish. Be honest, if you saw a poor family fishing, anticipating a catch for a rare meal, would you even care if they had a license?

Back to the original topic. If theres a serious concern that the monies from a fee increase will be mis-used, or placed into a general fund, I must ask how much effort went into finding out.

If the mere suspicion, or a remote possibility prompted people to avoid signing the letter, Id say that is the type of person who needs to see someone else catch a fish before they spend thier own money on bait.

Knowing what I know about the Oregon gov, and the condition of fisheries and hatcheries in this state, Id take the glass is half full aproach, pay the increase, and assume theres a remote possibility that the money WILL go where it belongs.

Do nothing, and thats exactly what happens...nothing.

[ 02-05-2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[bugs]

Why not but the increase on just the tags then folks who fish for other fish and not salmon and steelhead will not have to pay it. How about the gill netters they catch fish too and I dont hear anything about raiseing their fees. I read someone say it would be heard for us old people on fixted income (Dam I hate them words)to pay it well I am 72 yrs old and have not had to buy a license after I was 65, cant beat that deal

[CAGEY]

Cirosis-of-the-river,

The state budget is a public document. If you really want to know where each dollar goe's,that document should be made available to you at its location. I beleave you could even order a copy but iam not sure. It however would not be free.

[CAGEY]

Straydog, your last comments to Kodiak got me. :tongue:

[CAGEY]

post deleted by Cagey.


Happy Valentines Day to all. :grin: :smile:

[ 02-06-2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: CAGEY ]

[Angler of Repose]

There is one thing a lot of people forget when it comes to taxes or fee increases. We were the beneficiaries of the taxes of others for all the priviledges we had growing up, now it is the time for us to accept our responsibilities for the next generation.
Yes, personal income taxes are out of sight!!!
Why?
In the 1980's, the state of Oregon had high corpoate taxes and moderate personal income taxes, then came the recession of the early 1980's. The state thought the way out was to shift the burden of taxes from business to the individual. Yes, this did help create more jobs in Oregon, but it also brought in more people and more people meant more demand on the services of the state. More demand means more taxes. Who gets taxed? The individual!
The way out is for business to carry their fair share and for this state to accept a sales tax.
So much for taxes and user fees. My $.02

[RvW]

Bugs...you shouldnt have to pay for a darned thing!.. Id appreciate an oportunity to fish with you if youd like to teach a new dog (see eager avatar!) some old tricks...or vis aversa

[ 02-06-2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]