Setting the hook

RvW · 01-01-2003, 09:05 PM

I just read David Johnsons post about setting the hook and have to say thanks for the insightful suggestions BUT, I have a few questions I cannot post there.

Actually, only one question, can you set the hook TOO hard!? I drift fish with 8 pound leaders when after the steelies, and my biggest concern is finding a happy medium between "too hard" and "not hard enough"

Ive never actually broken a leader on a hookset with steelhead, but I can only assume that it is possible, especially after flyfishing greyling in Canada, and hooking into a monster cutt-throat or occasional brown.

So there you have it, is there a balance between too hard, and not hard enough, I have lost fish before, like today, assuming I set the hook well enough to imbed the barb, only to have the fish make a quik spin down stream, and spit it after a great fight.

[ 01-01-2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

UmpquaSpecial · 01-01-2003, 09:23 PM

I'm sure a number of folks fishing braided lines these days can attest to the real scenario of setting the hook too hard. The braided lines obviously do not stretch like mono and thus mono leaders with braided mainline are much more susceptible to breaking under a hard hookset (mainline braided are susceptible too).

On a November trip on the Wilson with D. Johnson, I broke off a big nook on the hook set. After munching on the eggs for about a minute (felt like ten!) the rod began to bury and DJ said "hit him". After missing several fish earlier I was primed and thus stuck him hard. To our surprise, all I came back with was the trailing end of 50lb braided dacron waving in the wind. DJ said that was quite rare but he did point out that one doesn't need to set the hook 'quite' as hard with braided line in back trolling or back bouncing situations.
Chris

blacktail · 01-01-2003, 09:28 PM

I've never broken off a Steelhead on the hookset and I'm definitley not shy about trying to bury the hook. I'm sure it can happen with lighter leaders and especially if combined with a braided main line. Another thing to consider would be the action in the tip of your rod. If it has a super stiff tip, then I would think you would want to be more cautious.

Mike

crabbait · 01-01-2003, 09:30 PM

As Umpqua said...it is pretty easy to tell when you set the hook too hard.

RvW · 01-01-2003, 09:52 PM

Sure, but Id hate to use a snapped leader as a reference point, working backwards.

I think my judgement is likely on target or close, but it frustrates the heck out of me to fight a fish only to have it spit the hook as in the case today..I kept the fish in front of me the whole time, the line tight, and the tip at least three feet above my head at all times...last turn she dropped down 16 feet below me and it was like it just fell out of her mouth. And this isnt the first time...my hooks are needle sharp!

Oh well, maybe I take it all a little too seriously, I love to fish, and love to catch fish...anything to do with fishing excites the heck out of me, even this site!...so I am very critical of my mistakes.

[ 01-01-2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

Fishplay · 01-01-2003, 10:36 PM

Fish come un-buttoned! It's a simple fact that will never change. All you can do is lower your percentage of lost fish with...
Firm hook sets.
Sharp hooks.
Fresh leaders.
Good knots.
Bent rods.
And quality tackle.
Keeping the fish gods pleased helps also. :grin:

Have I missed anything?

David Johnson · 01-01-2003, 11:16 PM

As far as I can remember I've not had someone break off a fish while drift fishing by setting the hook too hard (I use 8 and 10# leaders for drift fishing). Nor bobber fishing.

In those instances there is a lot of slack-especially while drift fishing. And lots of streach while using mono.

There has been a few times while backbouncing that fish have been broken off. While backbouncing or trolling or plugging you are tight to the fish-no streach and no belly or slack.

Fishplay said it right on too.

SeanD · 01-02-2003, 01:03 AM

So when driftfishing should i clamp my thumb down and set the hook, or just set the hook hard enough that the drag slips? I havent broken off at the hookset yet, but i set the hook hard enough the drag slipped without clamping my thumb down and have lost fish due to what i assume is too weak of a hookset. But ive broken fish off by thumbing the drag after ive hooked them and that led me to think i shouldnt use my thumb, just let the drag work.
So thumb on the hooket, or no thumb?

David Johnson · 01-02-2003, 01:18 AM

Thumb on the hook set. I see a lot of fish lost because they set the hook without the thumb and then the drag slips and the hook doesn't get full penatration.

Of course you will break fish off by thumbing the spool once you have the fish hooked because by then all the streach and belly has been taken out by the fish.

slamin salmon · 01-02-2003, 06:37 AM

Great dicussion bot it brings up the point of drag setting. I'm just a little embarrassed in asking the guy next to me "can I feel your brag" I,ve tried putting weights on the floor and lifting them like reel books say. Never worked. And then theres, can your leave the drag set or do you have to unlossen it after every trip?

tailchaser · 01-02-2003, 07:11 AM

I think the only time you could set the hook too hard is if you're using a rod too heavy for the size of line. My steelhead rod is very limber so I can rip some lip as hard as I can and the rod will absorb a lot of the stress on the line. Using proper equipment, "tear thier lips off baby!!"

tc

The Fishing Geek · 01-02-2003, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slamin salmon:
Great dicussion bot it brings up the point of drag setting. I'm just a little embarrassed in asking the guy next to me "can I feel your brag"

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Don't be. Most anglers are more than willing to brag, and will be pleasantly surprised to find that someone wants to listen to them go on and on about their conquerings.

Oh, and in case that was a typo...I'd be a little hesitant in asking another angler "Can I feel your drag" without fearing that they might not take it the way I intended. :grin: Must be that look that I give them afterwards. Or the banjo slung over my shoulder.

I've seen hooksets that are too hard. Normally, however, those are hooksets into rocks or stumps that are usually followed with the stomach-churning sound of shattering graphite. If you are prone to "Conan the Fisherman" types of hooksets, be sure to wear eye protection, a hat, long sleeves, and consider body armor. Especially for your friends.

[ 01-02-2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

Thumper · 01-02-2003, 07:44 AM

Slamin Salmon --- Regarding releasing your drag......In 45 years of fishing I have almost never had to replace drag washers. The reason is because my reels have their drags set ONLY when I am fishing. The drags are always released before the rods go in the car.

Skipper · 01-02-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Johnson:
(I use 8 and 10# leaders for drift fishing).

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hi David J,

What is your mainline size for steelhead when using the 8 & 10# leaders?

Do you tie on a lighter leader when bobber and jig fishing?

riverraider · 01-02-2003, 08:41 AM

Can you set the hook too hard? If you are fishing a short line with a really fast action rod, its posible to break the leader ( not to mention the rod if its a "rock-fish" or "stick-fish").
When fishing normal distances, especially from a fixed position, there is usually enough stretch in the line and "line-bend" from the current to act as a shock absorber. Your more likely to under-set the hook, especially with bigger hooks.
Fishing from a moving platform is a different story. When you are side-drifting, the oarsman is keeping slack out of the line and the boat moving downstream does the same.
Setting the hook too hard here hasn't broken my leader (#8 maxima) but I have turned a few fishes heads toward the boat on the hookset. Not always great. They feel the hook and jet off, but they are heading straight toward the boat.
Only time I've ever broken a leader was boondogging with my gear straight upstream of the boat.

MasterCaster · 01-02-2003, 10:37 AM

The only time I am careful on my hook set is if Im fishing a short line. If I dont have more than say 20 feet of line out on a short drift then I dont set the hook like Im trying to rip the fishes head off. If Im doing the normal cast and drift I have never had a problem with breaking the leader on a hook set. I only use mono for drift fishing no braided. I also use 15lb main and 12lb leaders for winters.

Slamin Salmon.....Drag settings are something I had a hard time with at first. I usually set my drag at home. Each reel and rod combo will have a different feel. I have someone hold a stick or something with my line on it and start pulling. I set my drag for the tension I want. After doing that a few times I can now set it just by pulling my line off the reel by hand. If the person using the rod that day hasnt gotten into many bigger fish I like to set the drag a little on the heavier side than I like for myself. That way when the fish decides to run it has more pressure against it without having to thumb it at all.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

A-Boss · 01-02-2003, 12:06 PM

I been steelhead fishing since I was a small kid (~30 yrs now) and my dad always impressed upon the need for solid hook sets when I was little.

I guess it became ingrained because my buddy always teases me about my hard hook sets.

I never snapped a fish off until I started running power-pro to a mono-leader. The couple fish I've snapped off have all taken the lure at the bottom of the swing where there is no slack in the line.

So if your using braided lines and there is little or no slack in the line you need to ease up on the hook sets.

I try to remember now, but sometimes its hard when you have a fish tugging on the other end :smile: .

David Johnson · 01-02-2003, 12:27 PM

They are called steelhead for a reason...

Wet_Willy · 01-02-2003, 12:40 PM

One other tip is to keep the fish in the water. Less jumps during your fight gives you a better chance of landing them. Keep a bend in the rod but when you feel the fish is going to come out of the water, turn the rod towards to the water to put pressure on it to stay down. Hard to explain, maybe somebody else has a better explanation of the technique.
Bill

husker · 01-02-2003, 12:48 PM

never keep your rod high.....12 oclock.....keep your rod loaded......somewhere between 9 and 3 oclock....or just a little higher or lower.....with the bend coming form upstream......

David Johnson · 01-02-2003, 12:53 PM

Yes Husker, keeping the rod loaded is the goel. A lot of times a person with a fish on is told to "keep the tip up". The outcome desired is to get the rod loaded.

It doesn't matter how high or low to the water the rod is as long as it's loaded.

Hogmaster · 01-02-2003, 01:03 PM

David -

I am surprised to see you feel that way. I respectfully disagree, though I know you are a far better and more experienced fisherman than I, so you are no doubt correct.

I agree about the load part, but again, based on several years of banking it and fishing with flies for sockeye, we found much greater success by keeping the rod low.

The reason, it appears, is that when fish are hooked in the corners of the mouth and/or the snout and the rod is held high, as the fish tires it will be forced naturally to lift its head up out of the water. A quick turn using the current and it has the leverage to use its body and current to throw the hook, much as cirrhosis described happened to him.

When we started leaving the rod low, not only did the fish flip off less from jumping, but they also didn't raise their heads above the water so never got the "leverage move". That's why I believe our landings went up significantly there and then in turn with steelhead and even salmon from the bank. Again, this is not in reference to deep hole fishing from a boat...

And if you have any doubts to the value of this, read below...

[ 01-02-2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

David Johnson · 01-02-2003, 01:12 PM

Ok, I'll refrase that "it doesn't matter how high or low"

I can see what you mean about if you are lifting the fishes head up by lifting the rod too high that could be a problem.

No mater what though, keep the rod loaded.

RvW · 01-02-2003, 04:19 PM

In my situation yesterday, the fish was never really more than 16 feet away from me, and at knee level.

With the butt of the 8'6" rod at waste level, I think the bow in the rod couldnt have been in a better place (3' above eye level) in other words, about 2 oclock.

I am going to assume my hookset was not agressive enough, and I appreciate all the tips. Believe it or not, I am spooled with Stren lo-vis green 10# and Gpower 8# leaders.

I have always taken great pride in my drag judgement/use. Not much else I can say, but I will be watching my partners (team "patriot missle") next saturday when the steelies are shot down!

Thanks again.

Geek? You mean with my full face motorcycle helmet and welders gloves I am still at risk?

[ 01-02-2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

Hogmaster · 01-02-2003, 04:57 PM

Next time try holding your rod at 3 to even 4 O'clock instead. What you described earlier is a classic that I have seen many times. Fish is all tired out and makes a lazy turn yet somehow just dislodges the hook right? We see that at boats after fighting a fish for a long while, too. It is the body leverage principle that allows many fish to come loose, and holding the rod low (when practical at the boat for landing and always on the shore) for the fight can keep that from happening.

And sometimes they do just get away, and certainly not being well hooked will make a huge difference.

But I encourage you to try it no matter who coaches you differently next time you have a hookup. Prove me wrong and I will stand corrected but prove me right and tell your friends!

norms gone fishing too · 01-02-2003, 05:09 PM

with me around yes you may need to wear that i have been known to stugron set on that first or second steelie of the year not much fight in them after that
see you a week form sat cirrhosis-of-the-river

norm

Green Machine · 01-02-2003, 07:00 PM

Thought that I might be able to add something, but by the time I got to the bottom of all the posts, almost everything was covered. :depressed: Man you guys are good. My $.02 is have complete confidence in your gear and yourself. It is pretty hard to break 12 or 15 lb test line on a fish. I've seen people, including myself, tenderfoot the rod and say "It's only 10 lb test!!" Don't worry, keep the rod loaded, let it tire the fish out, and land him quickly. The more you "play" him out, the higher the chance you will lose him or for some reason he comes unbuttoned. Just my opinion right or wrong. Ask DJ if he thinks an unconfident angler will catch fish.

Green Machine

Flatfish · 01-02-2003, 07:10 PM

I have to ask, who makes "Gpower" leaders? I assume it is a brand of line.

It is tough to bust on the hookset, unless your gear is mismatched,. It is very possible to break 8# leaders during the heat of the battle. Thumb the spool first, as soon as the fish wants line, let it go. I fish much heavier than many folks here. But I don't drift fish under clear conditions very often either.

Mark and the dog.

RvW · 01-02-2003, 07:38 PM

I make Gpower leaders, with Gpower line...(gamakatsu) and gamakatsu steel octopus hooks..

The reason I am mis-matched is I only have 3 working reels, and whats on there usually stays on there until I get to a store that recycles this stuff. Always heaier mainline tho.

I dont think mismatched is too uncommon is it?

David Johnson · 01-02-2003, 09:06 PM

Right Green Machine, one needs to be confident.

cirrhosis-it's probably a good thing you cleared that up about your picture :grin:

Navigator · 01-02-2003, 09:36 PM

Ya mean, you area suppose to set the hook?

Hogmaster · 01-02-2003, 11:47 PM

cirrhosis -

You held your rod tip too high. Next time leave it low and see what happens...

ALWAYS BACK OFF YOUR DRAGS. Your reels will stay out of Ollie's for much longer that way, and you won't find out the drag doesn't work right on the river...

As far as hook setting itself, I have found the most success by setting the hook sharply on all but plugged fish (those you will do best by just firmly pulling up against the resistance - don't forget the 4 chomp rule on a quickie, either). But the "sharply" varies by the species and method.

Here's what I mean. Light line low water conditions I might set the hook by a motion from "9 to noon". On the other hand, when I sturgeon fish, I do the full grunt 7 PM to 3 AM swing. But in either case the point gets set best by quick and firm motion.

Always thumb on to set. If the drag slips, the fish will be lost almost every time. But then, like DJ wrote, get your thumb back!

Interesting trying to get your drags set just right by picking up books with your gear at home. Have never done that. Hmmmm, maybe try a coat hanger on the river?

Nah, I used to run my drags tighter than I do now. Found myself losing less fish and enjoying them more by learning to properly use the rod to control the fish. How do you think line class records are set? It isn't by the drag, it is by the skill with the rod that gets those fish. It really isn't that much of a science, and there can be a lot of "granularity" in a drag setting that will still allow you to catch fish. Light firm pull on drift gear, heavier firm pull for big pigs, damn tight drag for gators.

I will only end this by writing that this has worked for me. Good luck to all of you!

PS - TFG - Be nice! :grin:

[ 01-02-2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

David Johnson · 01-02-2003, 11:59 PM

Skipper,

For main line I use 10 or 12# mono for my drift fishing rods and usually 10 for my float rods.

slamin salmon · 01-03-2003, 07:32 PM

Great replies guys, THANKS

toonboater · 01-03-2003, 08:43 PM

Just my two cents. When setting the hook on steelhead, I typically hit em once for the initial set then one or two more times just to make sure. I always make it a habit to use 8lb leader that's fresh and can't remember ever breaking a fish off on the set. There is alot of play in mono line.

toonboater · 01-03-2003, 08:45 PM

Just my two cents. When setting the hook on steelhead, I typically hit em once for the initial set then one or two more times just to make sure. I always make it a habit to use 8lb leader that's fresh and can't remember ever breaking a fish off on the set. There is alot of play in mono line.

GL2 · 01-03-2003, 09:07 PM

I'm backing Hogmaster on this one. I like to keep the rod tip low. All the points he made are my way of thinking too. The fish doesn't want his head being yarded to the side when he makes a strong tail thrust. Thats not natural to him. I also feel you make the fish fight the current & rod more this way. I don't see alot of anglers fight there fish the way Hog descibed.
Working for the two of us though.
Good job Hog!

boater · 01-04-2003, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fishplay:
Fish come un-buttoned! It's a simple fact that will never change. All you can do is lower your percentage of lost fish with...
Firm hook sets.
Sharp hooks.
Fresh leaders.
Good knots.
Bent rods.
And quality tackle.
Keeping the fish gods pleased helps also. :grin:

Have I missed anything?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">i dont think you missed anything :smile:

ultralight · 01-04-2003, 01:01 PM

Navigator, I love your sense of humor :grin:

steelheadslayer · 01-04-2003, 03:54 PM

Mostly when I'm drifting I have the levelwind disengaged so that I can feed line out to cover more water. Therefore, on the hookset I have my thumb on the spool and feed a small amount of line with my thumb until I crank the handle to set the drag. I always use mono for driftfishing because I like the stretch factor. Then after the fish is hooked, I'm with Hogmaster and GL2 on this, I keep the rod tip low to the water for the most part and keep switching the side of my body the rod is on. Keeps the fish guessing so they don't just pull one way from me. Now, If I can only catch one of these rare winterfish and practice this on!!!