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Old 10-23-2011, 06:07 AM   #1
blackcaphunter
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Default Doe hunting

I didn’t want to hijack the other thread so I figured I would start a new one. I feel that there should be much more doe hunting here in western Oregon. The buck to doe ratio is way out of whack and the heard won’t be truly healthy until it is put in check. When a doe is not breed the first time around she will come back into estrus 28 days later and so on until she is successfully breed. Fawns are most vulnerable to predators in their first couple weeks of life, if 90% of the fawns are born in a 3-4 week time frame it only gives the predators so much time for an easy meal, the way it is now it is stretched over a 2-3 month period.

If we could increase doe hunting and go to a 3 point or better, at least for a few years it would do amazing things for our deer population and hunting. I also want to add that this is not just some off the wall idea, I have spent the last few years researching this very topic.

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Old 10-23-2011, 06:19 AM   #2
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I need some help here....
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Doe hunting

Better do a little more research.
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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I need some help here....
With what? I am sure we can all be adults and discuss this, what's on your mind?
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:36 AM   #5
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Come to Tillamook and hunt for a week and then tell me we need to kill more Does. 6x6
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:42 AM   #6
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Default Re: Doe hunting

I agree with the OP. Everyone says you should not shoot does as much. lol When you have to many does it hurts the herd more then most people understand. A doe and a buck eat the same amount of food some areas can only handle so many animals. I would love a 3pt or better rule for some areas or atleast a 2pt. People will say oh the east guys don't know what they are doing but look at their herds the proof is in the amount of animals they have to/need to harvest every year to maintain the herds. I say get the buck to doe ratio in check and you'll see the deer populations come back. IMO
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:43 AM   #7
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Come to Tillamook and hunt for a week and then tell me we need to kill more Does. 6x6
Doe hunting might be for every unit but some units are over run with them.
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: Doe hunting

How can killing more make more? If we shoot a bunch of does we will have more deer? I think the more we kill the fewer we will have. If we shoot fewer bucks we will have more bucks. But if we shoot more does we get more bucks? This sounds like deer algebra so it may make sense but not to me.

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Old 10-23-2011, 07:01 AM   #9
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How can killing more make more? If we shoot a bunch of does we will have more deer? I think the more we kill the fewer we will have. If we shoot fewer bucks we will have more bucks. But if we shoot more does we get more bucks? This sounds like deer algebra so it may make sense but not to me.

LL
I feel for it to work right we would have to go to a 3 point min at least for a few years. We would have more deer (after a couple years) because IMO fawn survival would go way up and the overall deer population would be much healthier with much less inbreeding.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: Doe hunting

The other plan would be to close units that are haveing problems for atleast 4 years to all hunting. This would be the only way to do real reseach on how the herds would rebound. Thats one way the eastern guys did it also and know they harvest way more does then bucks.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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Better do a little more research.
Hi George, do you have any information or observations that say otherwise? I would love to hear your opinion on this.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:10 AM   #12
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I agree that you can take does out of a over populated area to help the health of the herd. In Tillamook we do not have an over population. On the east side of the coast range you still have a population and s.w Oregon still has good numbers of deer. I am in my 7th year of a hunting diary over here and it would make you sick to see the numbers, days hunted, and so on. Last year the total for Tillamook county was 11 days hunted, 7 total deer, 1 which was a 2x2. hunted southern oregon for 2 days and seen 116 deer and 8 of those were bucks. I passed on some and ended up not taking a deer for the first time in my life that I can remember. 6x6
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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Originally Posted by Applegate View Post
Better do a little more research.


Simple solutions rarely solve complex problems.

The first area to research is a complete breakdown of herd counts and buck to doe ratio in all of the various areas that our deer inhabit.

Then, one would need to study the herd density compared to available (and variable) food sources and stock.

So much to study, so little time for the layman.

Last edited by Straydog; 10-23-2011 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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Originally Posted by 6x6 Bull Elk View Post
seen 116 deer and 8 of those were bucks.
This is the problem I see.


Sucks about the deer population up there, what do you think is the main problem?
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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What has your research shown you?
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by blackcaphunter View Post
What has your research shown you?
I didn't say I had researched, did I?

Given you did say you've researched this, perhaps you can gain some credibility by sharing what exactly your research entailed, and how it led you to the hypothesis you have presented.

What and where were your test populations? How did you compare habitat and feed in the various test populations? Did you perform predator counts in the various test populations? How about hunter concentration? Did you study the number of hunters in each test population? Weather patterns and changes. How did those affect your test populations?

Last edited by Straydog; 10-23-2011 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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Originally Posted by Straydog View Post
I didn't say I had researched, did I?

Given you did say you've researched this, perhaps you can gain some credibility by sharing what exactly your research entailed, and how it led you to the hypothesis you have presented.

What and where were your test populations? How did you compare habitat and feed in the various test populations? Did you perform predator counts in the various test populations? How about hunter concentration? Did you study the number of hunters in each test population? Weather patterns and changes. How did those affect your test populations?
LOL come on man, you told me to do more research. That tells me that you dissagree, why do you dissagree? What do you think the solution is?

I said I have done some research not a full blown study, I am not looking for credibility with you or anyone else on here just giving my opinion on something I think needs help and looking for others opinions and ideas.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by blackcaphunter View Post
LOL come on man, you told me to do more research. That tells me that you dissagree, why do you dissagree? What do you think the solution is?

I said I have done some research not a full blown study, I am not looking for credibility with you or anyone else on here just giving my opinion on something I think needs help and looking for others opinions and ideas.
I can't really say I agree or disagree. What I don't agree with, is the notion that you've done adequate research to come up with a viable solution.

As I have said, I believe simple solutions rarely solve complex problems.

Given the myriad of variables, simply studying the cycle of deer reproduction isn't enough in my opinion.

Nothing personal. Just like you, sharing an opinion, which is what you say you wanted.

This is not a challenge of you personally, it is a challenge of your opinion which, in MY opinion, offers much too simple a solution to a very complex issue.

Last edited by Straydog; 10-23-2011 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:09 AM   #19
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Default Re: Doe hunting

I would suggest that you research the East coast herds and how they got to be what they are. The anti-Doe hunting mentality most likely came for the East coast where they actually had laws enacted which were called "buck only" laws. The high Doe harvests are really only a more recent development when looking at the whole picture.

We are comparing apples to oranges, west coast has far more predation issues than the East coast. East coast has a more stable food source than the West coast.

Harvesting Does back East is a must if the herds are to be kept for eating themselves to death. They are removing massive numbers of deer now, but that is only because they denied or restricted the Doe harvests in the early years and the herds became huge. A huge herd can accept a large harvest and continue on, but a smaller growing herd that is exploited beyond recruitment will decline (North Coast is an example IMO).

Killing Does in a herd that is below carrying capacity to try and balance the buck to Doe ratio is nonsense. You will not produce more fawns nor will more fawns survive. The key is to raise the buck ratio's by restricting harvest if you are getting delayed breeding. A buck can not have a fawn, only a Doe can. If forage is not a problem, then killing Does in hopes of balancing the buck to Doe ratio will not produce more fawns or healthier fawns, the same amount of Does would get bred during the first estrus and I assume the Doe harvest would simply reduce the amount of Does that would breed in the second estrus. Again, if the Does are not getting bred in the first estrus, the key is adding more bucks to the population.

If Doe hunting was the key, we should have had great deer herds up here on the North coast, but the evidence strongly suggests that the large Doe harvests of the '80's was actually a major cause of the demise of our deer herds. Do we really want to take a population that now appears to be around 25% of the historic high populations and Doe hunt them into oblivion???

You guys that live in the southern part of the state need to take a road trip up North and educate yourselves on what could happen in your back yard if we are not careful.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:12 AM   #20
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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Originally Posted by blackcaphunter View Post
This is the problem I see.


Sucks about the deer population up there, what do you think is the main problem?
At least you get to see deer down there. Up here we have several problems IMO , as in too much spraying the clearcuts, which kills the habitat that deer need to thrive. When the the cuts do start to grow in 3 or 4 years the food source is not the best for deer to thrive. Next they admit the population is down and we still over hunt it, being it does or bucks. They will preach a great buck/doe ratio, but what good is that if you have low numbers of deer. Another thing we have a great population of elk, which I think hurts the deer.6x6
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:15 AM   #21
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Default Re: Doe hunting

ODFW Bios have a degree in such things and have been working this problem for years. If more doe tags were needed I"m sure they would issue them. None of us are really qualifide to discuss this Blacktails are not Whitetails there is more than enough food for twice the number of deer that we have. I dont know the solution and im know im not qualified to sit back in the chair and say shoot more doe's !! That said seams stupid to me. Make the west side a draw as well and limit the tags. also get a grip on the poachers and then I can see numbers coming up. from what I was told by an OSP trooper, Poaching is the biggest problem with deer and elk herds west of the willamette valley.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:18 AM   #22
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I would suggest that you research the East coast herds and how they got to be what they are. The anti-Doe hunting mentality most likely came for the East coast where they actually had laws enacted which were called "buck only" laws. The high Doe harvests are really only a more recent development when looking at the whole picture.

We are comparing apples to oranges, west coast has far more predation issues than the East coast. East coast has a more stable food source than the West coast.

Harvesting Does back East is a must if the herds are to be kept for eating themselves to death. They are removing massive numbers of deer now, but that is only because they denied or restricted the Doe harvests in the early years and the herds became huge. A huge herd can accept a large harvest and continue on, but a smaller growing herd that is exploited beyond recruitment will decline (North Coast is an example IMO).

Killing Does in a herd that is below carrying capacity to try and balance the buck to Doe ratio is nonsense. You will not produce more fawns nor will more fawns survive. The key is to raise the buck ratio's by restricting harvest if you are getting delayed breeding. A buck can not have a fawn, only a Doe can. If forage is not a problem, then killing Does in hopes of balancing the buck to Doe ratio will not produce more fawns or healthier fawns, the same amount of Does would get bred during the first estrus and I assume the Doe harvest would simply reduce the amount of Does that would breed in the second estrus. Again, if the Does are not getting bred in the first estrus, the key is adding more bucks to the population.

If Doe hunting was the key, we should have had great deer herds up here on the North coast, but the evidence strongly suggests that the large Doe harvests of the '80's was actually a major cause of the demise of our deer herds. Do we really want to take a population that now appears to be around 25% of the historic high populations and Doe hunt them into oblivion???

You guys that live in the southern part of the state need to take a road trip up North and educate yourselves on what could happen in your back yard if we are not careful.
Rank you are totally right for the n.w. and you saved me a lot of pecking on this keyboard. 6x6
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:26 AM   #23
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Default Re: Doe hunting

I don't care about ratios. They look good in stats and on paper. The coast range can support far more animals than there are now. I think we should do away with all the doe and cow hunts together. And all the bogus disabled permits, but that's a different issue.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:27 AM   #24
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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ODFW Bios have a degree in such things and have been working this problem for years. If more doe tags were needed I"m sure they would issue them. None of us are really qualifide to discuss this Blacktails are not Whitetails there is more than enough food for twice the number of deer that we have. I dont know the solution and im know im not qualified to sit back in the chair and say shoot more doe's !! That said seams stupid to me. Make the west side a draw as well and limit the tags. also get a grip on the poachers and then I can see numbers coming up. from what I was told by an OSP trooper, Poaching is the biggest problem with deer and elk herds west of the willamette valley.
Actually ODF&W regarded (at least in the past) that Blacktails were more like Whitetails and managed them that way. I you look at what our managers tried to do with our Blacktails, it mirrors the managers back East in the time line of when they started ramping up the Doe harvests. I have heard ODF&W managers time after time declare that hunting could not impact the coastal Blacktails and that habitat is the limiting factor, well we both know that is not true.

I believe the mistake that they made was in the survival rates that we have in our coastal Blacktails and this is now showing up in the research that has been conducted recently in Northwest Washington by the Makah tribe. We simply exceeded the recruitment with Doe harvests.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: Doe hunting

These posts illustrate the problem of trying to come up with a single solution for "western Oregon". Way too many variables.

I am sure many will disagree with me, but my take is we pay biologists to learn this stuff and help guide us and we should let them.

My guess is if we were able to take the politics and money issues out of the mix, our bios would provide us with many workable solutions and our animal herds would be in better shape.

I'm a "fish hook and bullet peddler", not a bio. I won't accept a bio telling me how to do my job, nor will I attempt to tell a bio how to do his.

Last edited by Straydog; 10-23-2011 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Doe hunting

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Originally Posted by Straydog View Post
These posts illustrate the problem of trying to come up with a single solution for "western Oregon". Way too many variables.

I am sure many will disagree with me, but my take is we pay biologists to learn this stuff and help guide us and we should let them.

My guess is if we were able to take the politics and money issues out of the mix, our bios would provide us with many workable solutions and our animal herds would be in better shape.

I'm a "fish hook and bullet peddler", not a bio. I won't accept a bio telling me how to do my job, nor will I attempt to tell a bio how to do his.
I agree, if you are not willing to spend a lot of time researching all the research or lack there of on Blacktails, it's best not to get involved in the management.
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Doe hunting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rank Amateur View Post
I would suggest that you research the East coast herds and how they got to be what they are. The anti-Doe hunting mentality most likely came for the East coast where they actually had laws enacted which were called "buck only" laws. The high Doe harvests are really only a more recent development when looking at the whole picture.

We are comparing apples to oranges, west coast has far more predation issues than the East coast. East coast has a more stable food source than the West coast.

Harvesting Does back East is a must if the herds are to be kept for eating themselves to death. They are removing massive numbers of deer now, but that is only because they denied or restricted the Doe harvests in the early years and the herds became huge. A huge herd can accept a large harvest and continue on, but a smaller growing herd that is exploited beyond recruitment will decline (North Coast is an example IMO).

Killing Does in a herd that is below carrying capacity to try and balance the buck to Doe ratio is nonsense. You will not produce more fawns nor will more fawns survive. The key is to raise the buck ratio's by restricting harvest if you are getting delayed breeding. A buck can not have a fawn, only a Doe can. If forage is not a problem, then killing Does in hopes of balancing the buck to Doe ratio will not produce more fawns or healthier fawns, the same amount of Does would get bred during the first estrus and I assume the Doe harvest would simply reduce the amount of Does that would breed in the second estrus. Again, if the Does are not getting bred in the first estrus, the key is adding more bucks to the population.

If Doe hunting was the key, we should have had great deer herds up here on the North coast, but the evidence strongly suggests that the large Doe harvests of the '80's was actually a major cause of the demise of our deer herds. Do we really want to take a population that now appears to be around 25% of the historic high populations and Doe hunt them into oblivion???

You guys that live in the southern part of the state need to take a road trip up North and educate yourselves on what could happen in your back yard if we are not careful.


Well said....
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:09 AM   #28
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I feel that there should be much more doe hunting here in western Oregon.

Fawns are most vulnerable to predators in their first couple weeks of life,

If we could increase doe hunting and go to a 3 point or better, at least for a few years it would do amazing things for our deer population and hunting. I also want to add that this is not just some off the wall idea, I have spent the last few years researching this very topic.

Your theory concerning predators “may” work, IF, there was a balance in the ecosystem between predators and prey. There is not.

Part of your answer to increase deer herd populations is correct. The best way to increase deer herd populations is to remove females. However, you have selected the wrong species. Removing does will not increase deer populations. The exact opposite happens. Removing does results in smaller deer populations. Reduction of doe populations through doe hunting in states back east have resulted in smaller deer herds, not larger herds.

To increase deer herd populations here in the NW, the females that need to be hunted and removed are bear, cougar, & coyote females, not does. To successfully return to the balance between the predator and prey species we had 30 years ago. We need the return of the more effective hunting methods used at that time. We need the return of hunting predators with dogs and bait. Until then, deer herd populations in the NW will remain un-healthy in an unnecessarily imbalanced ecosystem, due to politics, not lack of doe hunting.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:08 AM   #29
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Default Re: Doe hunting

So anyways.......

I see I am in the minority with my school of thought which I suspected I would be.

I my not have a degree as a bio but I am an educated man. I would be willing to bet that I spend a lot more time in the woods year round than 95% of the other outdoors men out there and that more than qualifies me to discuss this topic and others like it. I am not telling anyone how to do their job simply brainstorming for a way to help make this better.

P.S. Lets make this a useful and thought provoking thread guys, please keep the personal stuff out. Thank you.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:24 AM   #30
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Sounds to me like you have the scientific inquiry bug.

You have made observations.
You have formed a hypothesis.
You are looking for other observations, and for feedback on your hypothesis.



That is how good wildlife stewardship happens!

Now the test will be to design, as Straydog points out, a robust experimental / research protocol so that we can know exactly what has been tested when the results are tabulated.

Sounds to me like that would be something to bring to ODFW staff, to see if it would be a project that could be conducted by them or our fine grad students at OSU.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:42 AM   #31
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I can only speak on the Alsea and Stott Mtn units. I can do this because I live here and have hunted them for 22 years. Before we had the 600 series doe hunts, even during hunter's choice years, we had more deer and more bucks. Since the increased 600 series tags, our herd numbers have declined. The buck ratio is about the same but there are less of them too. This is observable fact.

ODFW has failed to appropriately manage these untis both for deer and elk. This is my very sincere opinion.
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:09 PM   #32
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Default Re: Doe hunting

I don't know squat about managing deer populations but do have an opinion. I think it wouls be well to shoot more does and make bucks a 3 point or better rule. Problem being that around here over the years, I have seen a whole lot of does with no fawns. Does without fawns eat as much as does with fawns and bucks. When I came here in 1989, I was told that our ratio of bucks to does was 100 to 1. Ain't no way a buck can service that many does so what we see are inferior bucks breding their momma's and sisters. And still there are a lot of un-bred does running around. So couple to many inbred animals running around and to many does eating that give nothing back, fawn's, and the herd has to get thinned by someone. Mother nature takes care of the problem then and probably not in the best intrest of hunter's.

Just a thought!
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:37 PM   #33
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I don't know squat about managing deer populations but do have an opinion. I think it wouls be well to shoot more does and make bucks a 3 point or better rule. Problem being that around here over the years, I have seen a whole lot of does with no fawns. Does without fawns eat as much as does with fawns and bucks. When I came here in 1989, I was told that our ratio of bucks to does was 100 to 1. Ain't no way a buck can service that many does so what we see are inferior bucks breding their momma's and sisters. And still there are a lot of un-bred does running around. So couple to many inbred animals running around and to many does eating that give nothing back, fawn's, and the herd has to get thinned by someone. Mother nature takes care of the problem then and probably not in the best intrest of hunter's.

Just a thought!
Pretty much the way I see it.
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:48 PM   #34
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There are a number of references stating blacktail does that are not bred in the first rut cycle, and are bred in later cycles, produce a high % of bucks. This is nature’s way of naturally controlling the buck/doe ratio. Here are a couple of quotes with links.

“When a doe comes into heat, or is receptive to breeding, she has a 24-hour fertile period. During the first estrus cycle is when most of the does get bred. If they miss being bred in the first estrus cycle, they’ll come into heat again 28 days later. Interestingly, during the second estrus period, the pH of a doe’s hormones changes, which results in a greater likelihood of bucks being born. This is nature’s way of population control, for if a doe is missed being bred in her first cycle, it could be due to the fact not enough bucks were around.” http://www.gameandfishmag.com/2010/12/14/hunting_mule-deer-blacktail-deer-hunting_blacktail_deer_hunting_tactics1210/


“Another factor that may contribute to this phenomenon is the scientifically proven fact that doe' s will produce more male offspring if they are not bred quickly during the rut. Nature wants the balance of bucks to doe's to be nearly 50/50. If a doe comes into estrus and does not become pregnant during her 24 hour fertile period this means that the number of bucks in her area is too low. She will become fertile a second time one 28 days later. The pH of the does uteruses will change for this second estrus cycle and if a fawn is produced there is a much higher likelihood of it being male.” http://www.blacktailcountry.com/html/article3d10.htm
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by hillbillygoat View Post
I don't care about ratios. They look good in stats and on paper. The coast range can support far more animals than there are now. I think we should do away with all the doe and cow hunts together. And all the bogus disabled permits, but that's a different issue.

couldn't have said it better myself! Let's start doe hunting when we are overrun with animals, but until then, it should be buck/bulls only, even for the "disabled" who shoot cows in Saddle Mtn. for example.
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bajadan2000 View Post
There are a number of references that state blacktail does that are not bred in the first rut cycle, and are bred in later cycles, produce a high % of bucks. This is nature’s way of naturally controlling the buck/doe ratio. Here are a couple of quotes with links.

“When a doe comes into heat, or is receptive to breeding, she has a 24-hour fertile period. During the first estrus cycle is when most of the does get bred. If they miss being bred in the first estrus cycle, they’ll come into heat again 28 days later. Interestingly, during the second estrus period, the pH of a doe’s hormones changes, which results in a greater likelihood of bucks being born. This is nature’s way of population control, for if a doe is missed being bred in her first cycle, it could be due to the fact not enough bucks were around.” http://www.gameandfishmag.com/2010/12/14/hunting_mule-deer-blacktail-deer-hunting_blacktail_deer_hunting_tactics1210/


“Another factor that may contribute to this phenomenon is the scientifically proven fact that doe' s will produce more male offspring if they are not bred quickly during the rut. Nature wants the balance of bucks to doe's to be nearly 50/50. If a doe comes into estrus and does not become pregnant during her 24 hour fertile period this means that the number of bucks in her area is too low. She will become fertile a second time one 28 days later. The pH of the does uteruses will change for this second estrus cycle and if a fawn is produced there is a much higher likelihood of it being male.” http://www.blacktailcountry.com/html/article3d10.htm
But they have a much lower chance of survival.
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Old 10-23-2011, 01:19 PM   #37
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But they have a much lower chance of survival.

Why? Because there are way too many predators killing fawns.

Blacktail fawns are born with camouflage spots, and give off very little scent. When danger approaches, fawns freeze in place, remaining motionless for many minutes. Predators have a difficult time finding fawns, no matter when the fawns are dropped.

I have also noticed far more does without fawns the last couple of years. However, this is due to predation. Why do I say this? I also noticed a huge increase in bears, coyotes, and cougars, while the buck to doe ratio has remain fairly constant. My time in the field indicates the lack of fawns is due to predation, not a poor buck to doe ratio

There are more bucks around than people see. Most bucks become very nocturnal, living in thick dense areas soon after they separate from their mothers. This makes the buck/doe counts voodoo science at best. At worst, the buck/doe counts are faulty science used by those pushing a political agenda.

If you want to tweak the buck to doe ratio, first build a foundation that will support your changes. Until predators populations are brought under control, any doe harvest will result in lower deer populations. End of story.
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Old 10-23-2011, 01:53 PM   #38
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Why? Because there are way too many predators killing fawns.

Blacktail fawns are born with camouflage spots, and give off very little scent. When danger approaches, fawns freeze in place, remaining motionless for many minutes. Predators have a difficult time finding fawns, no matter when the fawns are dropped.

I have also noticed far more does without fawns the last couple of years. However, this is due to predation. Why do I say this? I also noticed a huge increase in bears, coyotes, and cougars, while the buck to doe ratio has remain fairly constant. My time in the field indicates the lack of fawns is due to predation, not a poor buck to doe ratio

There are more bucks around that people see. Most bucks become very nocturnal, living in thick dense areas soon after they separate from their mothers. This makes the buck/doe counts voodoo science at best. At worst, the buck/doe counts are faulty science used by those pushing a political agenda.

If you want to tweak the buck to doe ratio, first build a foundation that will support your changes. Until predators populations are brought under control, any doe harvest will result in lower deer populations. End of story.
I totaly agree that the predator population is way out of control and needs some serious attention, but that isn't going to happen.

Trust me I understand how deer work, I know fawns have spots to camo them and I know buck become nocturnal.

I am going off of my own experience in the woods, I would not trust ODFW counts even for a second, I have helped with their counts in the past and they make no sence what so ever and IMHO are in no way even close to accurate.
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:15 PM   #39
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Back in the 80's they tried balancing the buck/doe ratio in the Silver Lake and Fort Rock by killing does...They issued THOUSANDS of doe tags year after year..

Hmmm???

Didn't turn out so well...
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Old 10-23-2011, 05:27 PM   #40
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maybe we should increase both doe and buck tags, that way we would have less of both.

no, i'm not a biologist, but i did stay at a holliday inn express last night ( just seemed fitting for this thread)
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:29 PM   #41
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I didn’t want to hijack the other thread so I figured I would start a new one. I feel that there should be much more doe hunting here in western Oregon. The buck to doe ratio is way out of whack and the heard won’t be truly healthy until it is put in check. When a doe is not breed the first time around she will come back into estrus 28 days later and so on until she is successfully breed. Fawns are most vulnerable to predators in their first couple weeks of life, if 90% of the fawns are born in a 3-4 week time frame it only gives the predators so much time for an easy meal, the way it is now it is stretched over a 2-3 month period.

If we could increase doe hunting and go to a 3 point or better, at least for a few years it would do amazing things for our deer population and hunting. I also want to add that this is not just some off the wall idea, I have spent the last few years researching this very topic.
While doing your research which areas did you find that had these low buck to doe ratios you speak of? I am not aware of a unit where this is the case.

One other thing that I can't quite grasp is how having less does will equal more fawns all born at one time. In theory the bucks that are available will breed the same number of does in the first estrous regardless of there being too many does. The extra does will be the ones breed later which in turn leads to having later fawns but if the extra does are dead they will have zero fawns will they not? (sarcasm )

By no means am I saying there isn't a time and place for some doe hunts but I can't follow your logic here. To me the reason to have antlerless hunts is because there are too many deer or if the number of tags are limited in number enough to not have any real impact.

If there is a healthy deer population but actual low buck ratios then buck harvest needs to be reduced. I say actual because I suspect what most people observe doesn't reflect the actual population at least not from what my trail cams tell me.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:29 PM   #42
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I live out in the woods, in the North Coast TMA. I see a lot of deer around me, and most of the does have twins. I've seen 1 cougar in my 6 years here, plus a handful of bobcat. No bear, and nothing else. IMO, my area has a population that is strictly controlled not by predators, forage, or ratios, but instead by poachers.
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:49 PM   #43
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I live out in the woods, in the North Coast TMA. I see a lot of deer around me, and most of the does have twins. I've seen 1 cougar in my 6 years here, plus a handful of bobcat. No bear, and nothing else. IMO, my area has a population that is strictly controlled not by predators, forage, or ratios, but instead by poachers.
you have seen one.. and NOT SEEN plenty of cougars..... I am sure more then a few bears roam as well...... unless you look for scat, you don'y notice bear sign all that much....... we have a area I deer hunt over east that has TONS of deer.. you will see 150+ a day and not even try.... problem is you see only a handful of bucks and not that many legal ones ( 3 pt) .. more does need to killed over there for sure
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:21 PM   #44
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While doing your research which areas did you find that had these low buck to doe ratios you speak of? I am not aware of a unit where this is the case.

One other thing that I can't quite grasp is how having less does will equal more fawns all born at one time. In theory the bucks that are available will breed the same number of does in the first estrous regardless of there being too many does. The extra does will be the ones breed later which in turn leads to having later fawns but if the extra does are dead they will have zero fawns will they not? (sarcasm )

By no means am I saying there isn't a time and place for some doe hunts but I can't follow your logic here. To me the reason to have antlerless hunts is because there are too many deer or if the number of tags are limited in number enough to not have any real impact.

If there is a healthy deer population but actual low buck ratios then buck harvest needs to be reduced. I say actual because I suspect what most people observe doesn't reflect the actual population at least not from what my trail cams tell me.
Your take on his math (logic) sounds right. At first he had me. He was referring to the timing of the breeding being spread out, but if the ratio is high doe to buck, that doesn't mean the bucks won't get any. It means they might just get it twice.

So the answer might be we need more bucks, and less predators, and even less poachers. Not less does.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:31 PM   #45
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Your take on his math (logic) sounds right. At first he had me. He was referring to the timing of the breeding being spread out, but if the ratio is high doe to buck, that doesn't mean the bucks won't get any. It means they might just get it twice.

So the answer might be we need more bucks, and less predators, and even less poachers. Not less does.
Inbreeding=bad

3pt or better=more bucks
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:02 AM   #46
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maybe we should increase both doe and buck tags, that way we would have less of both.

no, i'm not a biologist, but i did stay at a holliday inn express last night ( just seemed fitting for this thread)
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:47 AM   #47
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I live out in the woods, in the North Coast TMA. I see a lot of deer around me, and most of the does have twins. I've seen 1 cougar in my 6 years here, plus a handful of bobcat. No bear, and nothing else. IMO, my area has a population that is strictly controlled not by predators, forage, or ratios, but instead by poachers.
Tell me about the "lot's of deer" you are seeing Bill. You had a cougar probably less than 3 miles from your house a couple of weeks ago. You haven't seen any coyotes???? I know you have heard them. So, those poachers are getting passed the locked gates?
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:49 AM   #48
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While doing your research which areas did you find that had these low buck to doe ratios you speak of? I am not aware of a unit where this is the case.

One other thing that I can't quite grasp is how having less does will equal more fawns all born at one time. In theory the bucks that are available will breed the same number of does in the first estrous regardless of there being too many does. The extra does will be the ones breed later which in turn leads to having later fawns but if the extra does are dead they will have zero fawns will they not? (sarcasm )

By no means am I saying there isn't a time and place for some doe hunts but I can't follow your logic here. To me the reason to have antlerless hunts is because there are too many deer or if the number of tags are limited in number enough to not have any real impact.

If there is a healthy deer population but actual low buck ratios then buck harvest needs to be reduced. I say actual because I suspect what most people observe doesn't reflect the actual population at least not from what my trail cams tell me.
I was going to do a simple population model, but Joe pretty much pointed out the glaring hole in the theory.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:59 AM   #49
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I live out in the woods, in the North Coast TMA. I see a lot of deer around me, and most of the does have twins. I've seen 1 cougar in my 6 years here, plus a handful of bobcat. No bear, and nothing else. IMO, my area has a population that is strictly controlled not by predators, forage, or ratios, but instead by poachers.

I live in the woods outside of Grants Pass. We have lots of deer and also have cougar, coyotes, bob cat and bear, but I am not aware of poachers. Maybe that's why we have lots of deer......????

As an aside, just from my observations in my little piece of the world where I live (not where I hunt), our buck to doe ratio is about 3 bucks to one doe, for the last couple of years.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:08 AM   #50
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I live in the woods outside of Grants Pass. We have lots of deer and also have cougar, coyotes, bob cat and bear, but I am not aware of poachers. Maybe that's why we have lots of deer......????

As an aside, just from my observations in my little piece of the world where I live (not where I hunt), our buck to doe ratio is about 3 bucks to one doe, for the last couple of years.
I hunt down south from you and I think it is good in those areas.. hell one day we saw 14 deer and 9 bucks.... up here ( sw wa) that NEVER happens.....
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:28 PM   #51
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Come to Tillamook and hunt for a week and then tell me we need to kill more Does. 6x6
no kidding, there aint a deer to speak of up here. not even any fresh tracks but every 2 miles. IMO all doe hunting should be cut. youll complain about the deer population till they sell 12000 doe tags for your unit, then youll complain how few deer there are. trust me, it happened up here
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:47 PM   #52
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Back in the 80's they tried balancing the buck/doe ratio in the Silver Lake and Fort Rock by killing does...They issued THOUSANDS of doe tags year after year..

Hmmm???

Didn't turn out so well...

You couldn't have said that any better!
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:49 AM   #53
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Inbreeding=bad

3pt or better=more bucks
Right. More bucks to breed those does all at the same time, giving the predators a narrower window of opportunity at the fawns, by your thinking. More bucks great, but why kill the does?

Create that narrow window of breeding time with a large population instead of a small population. But who's going to agree to 3pt or better, even for a year or two.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:24 PM   #54
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couldn't have said it better myself! Let's start doe hunting when we are overrun with animals, but until then, it should be buck/bulls only, even for the "disabled" who shoot cows in Saddle Mtn. for example.

I think part of the problem isn't just disabled hunters. Yes there are people out there that shouldn't have a disabled permit that are taking does and cows, that should be hunting bulls and bucks. I think people who have sever disabilties, amputations, and disabled vets should have an easier back limit for elk, and in some units deer as well.

What needs to happen before the doe hunts are increased, or controlled tag numbers are increased we need to get a check on the preditors and poachers. That should help for a good start. What ive noticed is alot of the public property is a serious decrease in both deer and elk. Part of this could be from lack of food, and habitat. Maybe what needs to happen is more smaller clear cuts for the deer and elk to feed in, and less roads for poachers to use to poach from. Since I have started hunting mostly private timber lands I have started see ALOT more deer. I went from seeing 1-5 a weekend to 10-20 a day were I hunt. Now some of you I know would see more then me, but thats for a different reason. I think that some of the 600 series tags need to go, or they need to be done like some of the 200 series cow tags where it is certin areas only, not just unit wide. Another thing that could help as well is close down all hunting state wide for a couple years, or drasticly reduce tag numbers so that the populations can rebuild.

I have to say there are a few good ideas in this thread and is a good read, but we have to keep in mind some units have higher deer populations then others.
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