Promote the sport, save the rivers!?

[Jennie@ifish]

How can we do both?

I have come up with problems from users being upset about secret or small rivers that cannot take the pressure of ifish.

I have conflicting views on this.

I would like to keep ifish friendly, informative, and yet at the same time, leave some things holy. There are some rivers and streams that need to be discovered by the people passionate enough to go searching for these special places by themselves, or, to learn about them from special family members, or friends.

Most of us, at ifish, know how to protect our rivers, treat them with respect, don't leave trash, etc.

But, when we give exact directions to a place that is small, that cannot handle 6000 (plus) viewers on ifish, we take the risk that someone will read it, and not respect it as we do.

I can understand how upsetting it could be, to have a special place that you grew up fishing, or found by deliberate search, exposed on an internet site, and the next day you went to fish it, it's elbow to elbow.

My contradicting thoughts are that we are here to share, and support our sport, so that we can get more people to fish, lobby for our rights, and learn to care for these places.

What upsets me, is that someone might come on to ifish, and want to share, out of the goodness of his/her heart. Sometimes these posts come out of excitement. "Look what I caught!"
They want others to go to a place, and feel the same wonder and excitement that they did. Then, when they do, they get an opposite, very strong and negative reaction. Perhaps hateful e mails, or posts, or the worst: Returning to that spot to find elbow to elbow fishermen who leave trash, waste, and don't respect the out of doors like you and I do.

When you do a report like that, and get chastised, it felt to me like I had tried to do something nice as a kid... Bring my Mom a bowl of cereal, and I spilled the milk all over the bed, trying... and got yelled at. You know that feeling? :smile:

Either scenario is unpleasant, to say the least.

I have goofed in the past, and so have many of you. It's distressing to have people upset with you, when you meant well, or didn't think it all the way through.

I can see both points of view, and I do care about the resource more than the average joe. So do you.

It hurts to think that ifish may have a negative effect on the fishery. If it comes to that, and it outweighs the good, Jennie be gone, and so be ifish! :depressed: I don't want that to happen.

First come cell phones... I have seen the good and the bad in that, too. Say, there is a good bite going on on the Tualitan. There are two boats fishing it. Pretty soon you hear a cell phone ring. Pretty soon 28 boats are fishing the hole! WOW!

Then, comes the internet... If it's not going to be ifish, it will be another site.

So, let's figure it out, put our heads together, and work on this.

How can ifish be a good, informative site, yet not risk the overpopulation and littering of rivers and streams?

I was defensive about this subject for a long time. It's time to confront it. I'm convinced. It is a problem that needs addressing.

Might as well be open and honest about it.

My solution: Tell where-ish, or not at all, tell how, tell why, talk about your feelings and excitement, tell about the experience, and answer questions, but leave the shopping for where to your family, best friend, and your dog. :smile:

If you want to learn new fisheries, leave it to the professional and hire a guide.

Is that a good solution? Will this help?

If someone posts a post that is too descriptive, do I delete parts of it, when asked be another concerned member?

Help me out, here.

Jen

[ 12-06-2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[Thumper]

Well, I think that my post last night re-ignited this concern, so I will have to take some blame. My interest in postng was to hopefully get some newer fishermen, maybe even kids, to experience a good chance at catching "put-and-take" hatchery fish. That offended some.

If Ifish members prefer to avoid sharing such "secrets", I can conform. Sorry to all that felt I had crossed the line.

[ 12-06-2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[lilnorthfork]

With 6000+ members, ifish is more than an internet site, it is a community. In fact, it is bigger than the community I grew up in. Dissenting views in any community are healthy (i.e. tell v. don't tell). What is not healthy, imho, is trying to control those views. My $.02 is don't edit the posts. Best hope is that everyone is civil to each other; but let's face it... put 6,000 people who are passionate about the same thing - fishing - in a room together and there will be disagreement. As to whether to tell or not tell, I say let's agree to disagree.
Personally, as much as I love a tip on where, what, or how to fish, it does not compare to the amazing feeling of self-discovery.
humbly yours, lnf

[Jennie@ifish]

No Thump, although yours added to it, this has been brought up a lot in the last year.

I even got yelled at by a guide that I thought was really nice. Nearly made me cry on the river last year. :depressed:

It was a friend of Bills, and it was awful. :depressed:

Even Bill was surprised.

Jen

[rob allen]

Thumper Please do no apologize for posting about Salmon creek!! We need to get as many people there as we can to take home as many of thoes fish as possible.When it comes to hatchery fish in small streams like this without any adult collection facilities there is a dire need for anglers to be effective and Not practice catch and release on hatchery fish.

Concerning other streams.. If you don't want people to know where you are fishing then don't post reports.. However don't be complaining when someone else does! None of us has our own private river except in our own minds. We need to get over that. We are a growing population with fewer and fewer places to fish Thats just reality. You don't have to like it but you better accept it becaise it IS! going to happen.
I don't know what rivers specifically are being talked about but crowds are just going to be part of the game, it's just a sign of the times. Don't get mad because someone tells people about your "secret" honey hole..

[ 12-06-2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: rob allen ]

[Jennie@ifish]

Rob-- This is funny!

I had someone at a fishing banquet tell me that they thought I was you, posting just to get people riled up.

LOL

I am not ROB ALLEN! :smile:

Jen

[SloTroll]

Jenny,
It is no secret that this topic has been the subject of debate for a long time.

I have been enjoying salmon fishing in the ocean, Puget Sound and bays for several years, but just recently took up steelhead fishing. I am yet to catch my first one, but I don't want someone sharing their super-secret, sure-catch spot just so I can make it easy on myself. The fun comes in perfecting technique and finding those spots myself. I favor the posts that tell how and what. The where should only come on those "well known" rivers that are fished regularly and heavily and we generally know which ones those are! Pure numbers will dictate just how many people can fish these locations at one time.

I believe that a vast majority of ifishers feel the same way about preserving our rivers and conservation of our resources. Good judgement and experience will dictate how much information to provide in a post. Therefore, I don't favor editing posts of locations.

And regarding the Tualatin River, I don't know what all the hype is about. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] Since moving to Tualatin in June I've yet to catch anything in that river! I do like it though. There is little fishing pressure and it's easy to navigate. I am frustrated that is always a little "off color". When does the winter run start? If I don't have any luck soon I might have try this other river I
just heard about: the Clackamas. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] This isn't a zipperlip is it?

Keep up the great work.

SloTroll

[Fshklr]

SloTroll,
The reference to the Tualitin is a joke !! It sufaced about a week or better as a pun for refering to the latest hot spot, to avoid conversations and posts like this thread.

This thread is a hot topic that ensures hotter debate!
Can't please everyone all the time, but we can try. Beyond that each river, stream, bay, etc are not SECRETS. Many already know but do not fish at some locations for lack of time, knowledge, or equipment. Which is why I participate here to learn such things and pass on the knowledge gained. As for my river and my spot fanatics.. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] I'm probably fishing next to you already and you don't even know it [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] . Yes I agree there is water that just cannot take the pressure of 6000, INCLUDING THE COLUMBIA!! :whazzup: But realistically how many people drive many miles out of the norm chasing the hot bite or hot post. This and other issues always surface when times are slow, catch rates drop off, and more p/c time is taken in.
Step back, clean your tackle rods etc, and GO FISH!
Tight lines Dan

[Thumper]

This is quite a conundrum. Cool word. :grin:

On the one hand we have Rob Allen and his colleagues urging us to catch every last hatchery fish. I think they are correct. I used to release the biggest and baddest hatchery fish in the hopes that they would spawn. But Rob and others like him have helped educate me. That's one of the great things about Ifish.

On the other hand we have those whose years of experience have led them to discover these little "secrets", and they don't want those divulged to the masses.

I've spent 50 years fishing in SW Washington, and have managed to learn a little (admittedly very little). But I love to see new fishermen, kids, or the handicapped catch their first fish. I'd like their learning curve to be a whole lot shorter than mine was.

To me the question is --- are we supposed to catch all the hatchery fish that we can, or are we supposed to keep them a secret, sort of hoarding them for ourselves like squirrels hiding their nuts.

Like I said. It's a conundrum.

[Chris Sessions]

Excellent post Jennie!
If you were driving down the highway and spotted a few big bull elk. You could post:
"Well it looks like we may have a good elk season on the coast this year for big bulls".
Or:
I just spotted three 6 point bulls at mile post 42 on hwy 6.
Both posts offer good information but have a different resulting effect.

Sorry in advance if there actually are elk at mile post 42.
Chris

[letsfish]

There are lots of folks that do not have the contacts that some fortunate others have -they need more resources therefore to learn about fishing and where to go. These larger streams are no secret!Though for some individuals they are not in the radar screen, yet. The smaller streams and particular holes of little reputation should be posted by the author to protect the streams amonimity. Though we naturally want to know -the truely inquisitive will seek them out.As far as, moderators deleting or editing a post that gives to much detail I feel that would be overly restictive, even though some place of solitude I fish may get revealed.
There was a post early this week in which the individual went fishing with his dad on the Kilchis(not a secret, people know about it) and then went to another stream in which they went into fine description and did not name, because it was a small stream. I am glad they didn't- I would hate to see it overrun. But like every one else there is that part of me that wants to know.

[ 12-06-2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: letsfish ]

[trouttroller]

I am always amazed at how many people think they own the rivers, especially some guides.( Not all) Just because you get paid to fish doesn't give you anymore privilage to the fish than anyone else. I've lived and fish in the state for 35 years and yes my favorite holes are getting crowded but as long as everyone gets along I don't mind sharing, especially with Ifisher because I'd hope that all are great people like the posts indicate. The only two things that really bug me when things get crowded is when you step back to retie or land a fish someone moves right into your spot. The second is when boat runs right over the top of your drift while you fish. Boaters please hug the near bank when passing through. I usually don't like to get involved with these post but when you start slamming Jennie. I get a lot enjoyment from many of the posts and would hate to see it go away. My advice to people who don't like Ifish, don't log on. By the way, keep bad mouthing the Tualatin river. Lived within a couple of miles of it most of my life. What you don't know won't hurt you :grin: Thanks Jennie, hang in there.

[Mrdorkfish]

In my opinion, If you don't promote the sport who's gonna be there later to save our rivers There are but a handfull of people that want "secret spots" kept quiet compared to those who just fish..call a buddy and tell them already what they know...there are fish in the river...ANY river, In my many years of fishing the Columbia..Same spot for every species...every run...i have to say i have seen a decline in pressure...the line just outside of Chinook landing is has been about 20 boats short for the past 5 years.... I can post pics and tell everyone excactly where i'm doing well and you might see a few extras but if you have any confidence in your fishing ability they won't hurt you being out there. ( NOT MEANT TO HURT FEELINGS...JUST BEING HONEST) Alot of the Newbies out there in big shiny boats are just like the guy in brand new waders..That TR-1 is nice but i still haven't seen you catch a fish yet :tongue: They look good but might not be too up on what's going on just quite yet... HELP THEM !! I personally don't think Ifish can effect the Columbia but maybe smaller streams...as far as pressure goes. Don't delete posts about hot spots...people want to know..that's why they are here.

MrDorkfish [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

Louis

[spookalotafish]

Apparently I am in the minority here in wishing people would refrain from posting details.

It's a fact that some small streams can't take the pressure, especially the ones faced with other environmental issues.

If it was only members accessing the reports, I think the issue would have less importance. However, this is not the case. During November ifish had over 18 million hits. If only the 6000 members were accessing ifish, then each of us visited 100 times per day. I know I fished at least 8 days last month, making it difficult for me to reach my quota, did you hit ifish 3,000 times last month?

In general, I like to believe ifish people don't leave garbage and treat other people and the rivers with respect. I'm less optimistic about others. There is a type of accountability principle in effect.

Ifish is great for exchanging techniques, offering up open seats, telling stories, selling gear and meeting people.

If you want to learn secret spots, hire a guide or better yet, hook up with the people in the know (personal thanks to Grantspastor, Mad Mickey, Erik, Bluefish Ed and Bryan). Instead of surfing for secrets, we could try something novel, talking to people.

Yo big bro (i.e., Jennie), I vote for censorship, but a more reasonable alternative would be to require members to log in before seeing detailed reports. I'd even pay a nominal membership fee to save the Tualatin from overpressure.

Spookalotafish

[hustlerrjim]

I love this one
the more people to watch me catch fish the happier i am.
I have a reputation to maintain
fishing at the hatchery is fantastic we saw fish all the way down to my place.

[dawhunt]

The solution to this is really pretty simple.If you want to share with us what river you were on and what you used please feel to do so,if you don't then don't !! but be courteous enough not to read the info that others are giveing out and remember they have the right to give out this info if you don't like it then DON"T READ IT !!
This is still a free country and bad mouthing or sending c--- e-mails to that person for doing what they have the right to do is just plain wrong
and doesn't belong on this board....
Bob

[SloTroll]

Fshklr,

I knew that! :grin: I'm surprised my mention of the T. River even drew a response. Tomorrow I will be fishing at another zipperlip location: Tillamook!

...and Jennie, my apologies for misspelling your name. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

SloTroll

[Thumper]

I am not trying to provoke anyone here, but I do have a question. I keep hearing that so-and-so river or creek can not "stand the pressure" of too many Ifish fishermen. What does that mean?

If we all agree that we need to catch all the hatchery fish, then what is this mysterious "pressure" that the river cannot stand?

Am I missing something here?

[spookalotafish]

When I say pressure, I don't mean lines in the water, or even fish pulled out, I think of the impact on the stream side vegetation, small bits of line, stray bobbers floating in the eddies, corkies on the bank, slinkies hanging from the trees... Some of the truly smaller "three rivers" and smaller type areas can't support the boot prints of 10 consciencous people a day, let alone 50. It's these issues that make floating the Rogue subject to a limited permit, and the Deschutes may follow. It's about environment stewardship.

These environmental impacts should be separated from other secret spot issues, such as "damn my favorite drift is crowded," (which I find mildly irritating, but a fact of life).

Also note, it's not just 6000 ifishers, but many lurkers. Again, 18 million hits in November...

I wonder if I'm alone here because people have left this board. I know this cannot be a new issue.

Spookalotafish

[GOT2FISH]

As a new member I have recived a lot of info from this page for that I say thanks. I think if you have a secret spot and you dont want it known dont mention it,however if youve fished the rivers for the last 20 years why not share and let some of us crackers get the chance to experiance a tug from a mad salmon.A lot of you have boats and have been doing this for a while some of us are still limited to the banks so whats the harm.Maybe ther should be a block so people who dont sign on cant acsses the board or maybe we should just realize the population in Oregon is growing and the pressure is got to increase.My spots my not be the best but I sure get a rush when I show them to someone and they hook up, Its almost a good as doin it myself.

[STGRule]

Thumper, I too mean the trampled riparian, the garbage, the fact that the streamside of a small place just cannot take that much "human intervention". I don't care how many fish are there to be taken out, I only care about the creek, stream or small river. One weekend of "too much pressure" will take months (or longer) to recover. Its the tree hugger in me. I like all that green stuff. We need to spread it out.

[Thumper]

OK, gotta get on an airplane, so I promise this is my last post on the subject.

Sorry, but I don't buy the concerns of many who worry about the "pressure" on the stream I was discussing. That stream has a 3 miles :shocked: of paved greenway for hiking and jogging, and is visited daily by hundreds of outdoorsy folks, their bicycles, dogs, horses, etc.

It is a great place to start a kid fishing. It is totally wheelchair accessible throughout the 3-mile length. No boat needed, no waders, no fancy gear. A kid in tennis shoes carrying a Mickey Mouse rod can easily catch his first steelhead.

It receives plants of 20-30,000 smolts annually, which means a likely return of 200-500 adult hatchery fish.

This is a stream that will not be negatively impacted by a few dozen (or a few hundred, in my opinion) more fishermen.

And I think that those who express dismay about "damaging the environment" or "too much pressure" have either never been there or are trying to keep this little fishing secret to themselves.

There. Done. Have a nice day and a great Ifish party. :smile:

[Jennie@ifish]

A "hit" is calculated every time a file is accessed. When you click on a page, look at all of the pictures, icons, smiley faces, banners, etc. Sometimes, in one "click" which you may rack up 50 hits.

So, in answer to your question, yes. 6000 people hit ifish that many times.

That is the very reason it calculates unique visitors, so we can separate that stat.

J

[ 12-07-2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[Pete]

I guess my perspective is a little different. What I see is people who are already fishers, people who come together in this forum to share their passion for their sport. And in so doing, develop a new, fuller perspective of the resources we share and depend on, finding ways to communicate the needs of those resources and ways to ensure the values we hold dear are protected. This is really the first medium we've had to carry on a wide ranging dialog about our sport, the first time we've been effectively able to pool our voices to achieve progress in shaping the laws and policies that shape our sport. We're still taking baby steps, learning what our comfort zone is in these conversations and learning the power of our collective voice. But ultimately, Ifish didn't create these fishers, didn't give them the passion to fish, didn't create the desire to find new places or explore. And in that passion, we are begining to learn that in this select group of fishers we have the power to bring protective appreciation for places that might otherwise be trampled by anonymous, uncaring people that don't share the experience of this voluntary community.

[trout chaser]

Thumper, I agree with you about the creek. I caught my first Steelhead in this creek. The whole purpose of planting steelies in it, is to provide a fishing opportunity within a short drive, ride or walk, for one of the larger cities in the state. I don't expect to find solitude on a creek that runs through the middle of a city with a population of a few hundred thousand. I'm willing to share this creek with more anglers, if it means seeing a fisherman-woman-kid catch their first Steelhead here. After all, that is the whole purpose of this fishery.

[ 12-07-2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: trout chaser ]

[ampersat]

There are really two things behind this issue.

1. We're trying to solve the wrong problem. If the problem is garbage accumulation, general degradation of the environment along the rivers, and poor behavior, not posting on Ifish where you caught your fish isn't going to fix that. The same folks fish and the same folks leave their garbage where they fish. They're usually the same folks who have no qualms about trampling the surrounding vegetation and cutting new trails. If we don't tell them where we're fishing, they go trample some other site. What we should be doing to resolve this issue is confronting those who toss their garbage and damage the environs near where they fish. We should have the same vigilance about this that we do about snaggers.

2. It's not about where, it's about when. If you think you've got a secret river somewhere, go pick up a copy of Fishing in Oregon. I'll bet it's in there. There is no "secret water" out there, just less "pedestrian" water. The real problem is that, as a for instance, a hot report about one of the coastal rivers will result in an "aluminum hatch" for the next several weeks. The folks who were there first get bent out of shape over this. They view the pressure as a direct result of the report and believe that if the report hadn't been posted, the pressure wouldn't come. Is this Ifish's fault? Somewhat, yes. I personally know probably a half dozen lurkers who have told me "I only read to find out when the fish are in" on a given river. On the other hand, Ifish isn't the only source of info for fishing reports. How many times have you asked the person next to you about Ifish and they've never heard of it? It's happened to me quite a few times. It's just that Ifish is the one that is most visible for us because we're here. What is to be done about this? Do we prevent people from posting locations here? If we do, are we going to swear them to secrecy so that they don't tell their friends either? Do we also confront The Guide's Forecast, the ODFW fishing report people, and all of the other bulletin boards out there? I don't know the answer to this for Ifish as a whole other than do nothing. So far, the strategy of other folks yelling at those who post location success seems to have worked pretty effectively. It's not very civil but the alternative, making it some sort of Ifish policy, is much worse. My own personal answer is to either suck it up or go fish somewhere else. If my trip is focused on catching, I suck it up and fish elbow to elbow with my fishing brethren. Provided that people know how to fish this way, it can be very productive and enjoyable. If they don't, it's an opportunity to educate them. If my trip is focused on fishing, I go to spots that aren't as well known but still have fish in them. I stand less of a chance at getting into fish but when I do it means I've done things right and it's more satisfying.

[rob allen]

I agree Thumper and would add, as my last comment on this issue, that hatchery fish letf in the river to spawn does far far far more damage than 10,000 styrefom shrimp containers or spinner packages or the degradation by human access of 50 miles of streamside bushes. but thats just what I think..

I went to a zipperlip this fall one about which I was sworn to secrecy and will never divulge but when I got there there were 20-30 people there all of them giving me the evil eye because they didn't recognize me, soon i was in the midst of then casting spinners for fresh wild coho. No one caught a thing!! so much for zippers...