South Coast "Disaster" What an idiot:

[TheRogue]

I have often stated that I'm a limited wild-fish harvest advocate on the South Coast streams that have excellent returns, but only if a person really wants to do so!! However, things like this are the reason any such harvest will have to be very closely monitored, and be ready to shut it down immediately.

Click here: ( Pistol River Violations ) and scroll down to the article about an arrogant local landowner that did major excavation to prime gravel beds and a high-water sheltering channel, not to mention attempting to block legal waterway access down the river!! What do you suppose would've happened a DB gotten hung up on the fence and upset??

GRRRRRRR [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

TR

[BigBeanCounter]

Hmmmm....

I wonder how many fingers & toes that inbred son of a $*&#^ has???? All that genetic cereberal material had to go somewhere... [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

Unbelievable. Some people should be forcefully put out of their stupidity. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[Uglygreen]

What an ass! I hope:

1) They force him to cleanup the mess.

2) They force him to mitigate the damage, say on a 3:1 ratio?

3) I dont think it would be possible to maintain a fence like that. Didn't something similar happen on three rivers a few years ago?

UG

[fishchaser]

People like him need to be living in an apartment He lived all his life on this river and then pleads ignorance. Ignorance is no excuse for what he has done to the river. He needs more than just a $10,000.00 dollar fine I can tell you that.

[steelhead1]

This Guy is a idiot , this is proof positive of what happins when a guy like this falls & hits his HEAD on river rocks one too many times.. what was this guy thinking? i hope they slap it to this jerk..

[Longhunter]

I sent him a little note!

Mcneely Ted
16210 HIGHWAY 42 MYRTLE POINT OR 97458

[timinthegorge]

What a MORON!

Does the phrase, "shallow end of the gene pool" come to mind?

And he can be fined $10,000 A DAY, which means he's not only going to have to TRY to mitigate the damage, but depending on when he did this, he hopefully will be lookin' at a multi-million dollar fine..... [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

And then he should go to JAIL...... [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[Hogmaster]

fishchaser. It says "Up to $10,000 per day"!!!

That might get his attention.

Who thinks this guy knew exactly what he was doing but only cared about protecting his turf? Guess it is time to ask if the Pistol is navigable?

[Straydog]

Thanks for posting this TR.

Man.... what a jerk! Unfortunately there are lots of them out there.

This is an example of why my gills flare when people say the "rules are in place and will protect us" from stupid land owners or hungry business people. Sure, we need the laws in place but can not be complacent just because they are.

Hopefully they will prosecute this jerk to the fullest extent possible. I am thinking his insurance carrier may be interested in the huge liability he set up with the fence in the river as well........ can you imagine the lawsuit if someone got caught up in that fence and drowned?

Another article in that paper caught my attention. I see a Redding firm was awarded a 4.34 mil contract to reconstruct the Foster Bar road.

I understand the bidding process must be followed but sure get bummed when I see these high paying jobs going fo folks out of the area..... hopefully they will hire some So. Oregon folks to work too.

I think it a good thing that Casey Wierbinskie (sp?) has passed on, he would probably be upset about them improving the road!! Do you know if Mother Nature is still in the old school??

[rob allen]

grr I am all in favor of having 0 tolerance for this kind of thing.. It has nothing to do with the guys inbred genetic make up has nothing to do with ignorance of the law, it has nothing to do with not knowing the damage he was causing. Any property owner on a river who knows that fishermen float behind his place then go to the effort to put up a fenct to prohibit that is going to know exactly when and where the fish are there and what they do in that gravel. I'd venture to guess that the guy fishes for them himself but thats just a guess.

He should be made to sell his property and no longer allowed own river front property.
The proceeds from selling his property should pay for all the damage he has done, Then he should be assessed the maximum fines on top of that. His heavy equipment should be confiscated and sold at auction and the proceeds be used for further enforecment of this kind.

What he did is the enviromental equivelant to ****** a small child.. his punishment should match..

[fishbait]

Perhaps some polite e-mails to the enforcement agencies and personnel might help keep the pressure on. It's suprising how different some agencies react if they know many people are watching.........

[BuKuBass]

IMO he should be force-fed 3/4 inch minus gravel and infertile fish eggs washed down with silt-laden water until he "spawns".
Any attorneys amongst us who know who we could contact to insure that this criminal is punished ie: who's jurisdition, precedents established, etc?
Are other BBs and groups...NW Steelheaders, TU aware of this?

[GL2]

I don't condone this guys actions in any shape or form.
But, I take offense at some point of views being posted on this thread.
This is U.S.A. we live in.
For some one to claim this man should be forced to sell his land and not own river front property is a soicalist statement.
This man has a right to own his property that cannot be infringed upon. He doesn't have the right to be a dumd a$$. But you can take his property when you pry his gun from his cold dead fingers.
I suppose you want to limit all our rights & liberties in the name of what you deem to be politcally correct.
I'd be shootin the first red pickin varmit that laid his hand on my heavy equipment.
Don't tread on my bill of rights. I am the NRA!!
All that said, this guy is not on my christmas list!

[SSPey]

from the article

"He said he believes that Pistol River is carrying large amounts of accumulated gravel downstream, which is then deposited, forcing the river to widen and threatening private property adjacent to the river. "

I don't doubt this for a second, having fished the Pistol. It doesn't validate his terrible actions, but upstream logging has dumped plenty of gravel into the Pistol. Take a look at the DeLorme Gazetteer for all the logging roads up in the Pistol headwaters.

[Gus Orviston]

TR,,
Nice post.... I know this guys won't get his 10K per day fine, I hope it is at least painful for him... and he gets a clear message that he can't muck about in the river without getting proper permits/oversight.

BUT what does the native retention comment have to do with this guys actions.... you lost me?

gus

[skein]

So this idiot digs out the spawning beds, puts up a fence to stop (and maybe kill) fishermen, and suddenly it's the loggers fault.

Floatnfish, no it's not.

Skein

[Straydog]

Gus,

I can't speak for TR but I can say that the harm this person caused will likely result in a lot less wild fish than 50 years of one wild fish retention regs. would.

If we do indeed pass the one wild fish harvest regs., we need to pay attention to actions such a these and adjust our regs accordingly to prevent an "overkill" of wild fish.

As always, the actions of others ( landowners, loggers, irrigators, municipalities, etc.) lead to more restrictions on anglers. We are the easy target and will pay the ultimate price for the mishaps of others.

[rob allen]

One thing i forgot to mention..

The rogue.. Thank you for bringing this to our attention..

GL2
No one shall be deprived if life liberty or property without due process of law.. What i am saying is that after due process of law is conducted and assuming he is found guilty all criteria has been met for taking his property from him. No where anywhere does it say that you get to keep all your property no natter what... Some things are more sacred that private property. One of thoes things is the rule of law.

My comments should be interpreted as saying his offence was sooo grevious that as a penalty he should be forced to do certain things.. Maybe we should put him in a half way house like a sex offender or maybe we should make him put a sign in his front yard telling everyone that he intentionally killed wild fish that we have spent millions if not billions to try to save.. he in fact stole from taxpayers just as surely as any tax evasion or false workmeans comp claim..

What I am saying is that any punishment bestowed upon him is his own fault and depriving him of property is completely 100% justified under the constitution and the bill of rights.

we more than likely just have differences of opinion about how sever this crime actually is..

[Straydog]

Skein,

I didn't read Floatnfish's comment the same as you.

I thought when he said " It dosen't validate his terrible actions, but upstream logging has dumped plenty of gravel into the Pistol." he pretty much laid the blame on this guy and simply backed the notion of there being a lot of gravel in the river and his belief that logging has a lot to do with it.

I agree that poor logging practices have contributed to the amount of gravel as well as fine sediments in our rivers and streams..... not saying anything is all their fault, but certainly willing to point out that this has contributed to our problems.

[ 12-15-2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[rob allen]

The Rogue No I don't have any friends in ELF or ALF nor would i associate with such people. I don't believe in violence or the vandalism of anyones property nor would i ever ever condone or tolerate such actions. I just get sick and tired of seeing things like this happen over and over again. This is not an isolated incident. This type of thing is continual by property owners and bussinesses alike. I am sick of them stealing from me and from you. How many times are you gonna have your house broken into at night before you start leaving your shotgun loaded???? All i am saying is that it's time to make people like this pay for their crimes.

[Straydog]

Skein,

Fair enough, I can understand your point about blaming loggers too much and can agree to disagree with your take on Floatnfish's comments. :grin:

TR,

You hit upon a good point about us being aware of the regs and the impact they may or may not have.

Unfortunately, we as a group are sometimes our own worst enemy.

Did you happen to catch the article in the current issue of STS about the migration of the Umpqua fish that were tagged?

As well as being a fascinating look at the behaviour of the fish, there was an enlightening (to some) mention of the huge issue of poaching of wild fish in the Umpqua system.

I say this is enlightening 'to some' because I have spent too many years over-hearing the comments and stories in tackle departments and stores concerning the killing of wild fish.

This sheds some light on the issue of 'forward looking' constituents of the ODFW Commission that *** and I 'chatted' about in another thread.

It also lends credibilty to something that I have always maintained but have been disputed over. That is the fact that the majority of anglers want to catch and kill fish and if we think strictly catch and release will maintain a large enough fishery to keep people in business and give fisherpeople a voice in the decision making process, we are saddly mistaken.

[ 12-15-2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[SSPey]

The Pistol River drainage is 100% outside of the Kalmiopsis Wilderness, both N and S forks. Alll of the Pistol River is on land owned by private companies and public agencies USFS and BLM (the latter two of course sell timber contracts to private companies).

see page 17 of the Gazetteer, first map in the whole book. I think you know what the squiggley red lines mean.

Roads are the main problem for sediment, and this gets much worse in case of fire. Without roads, a riparian zone composed of grass and shrubs alone is enough to stop most sediments short of a landslide.

[GL2]

Rob,
I think this is a tragedy! I understand your anger also. I just love our constitution & feel it comes first.
BTW- Anyone know how this rates as far as other simular actions. This guy moved alot of material. I'd like to see a list of the 10 most henious voilations.

[dampainter]

Just another reason why stupid people should not breed. I hope this guy gets the book thrown at him :shocked:

[tailchaser]

I was drifting the elk last year in a stretch that's rarely fished from a boat because of access and came around the corner to see an excavator digging in the middle of the river. I wish I would've had a camera on me then. They cursed us for even being on their property as we drifted by but definitely caught them by suprise. I plan on calling the same people in this article here next week to talk to them about it. These people do it quite a bit to create a hole in front of thier property. But it was definitel smack dab in the middle of the salmon run so I know that was far from legal.

tc

[djb]

Thanks for the info TR. I forwarded your link to jonathan brinckman at the Oregonian since it seems he takes an interest in our salmon issues. Stretching barbed wire over the river. What an idiot. It will be interesting to see if the Oregonian prints anything about this. This issue seems pretty newsworthy to me.

[riverrat]

no matter how outrageously stupid this man is he is not the first to take on excavation in a river, but hopefully he will be the last....the full extent of the judicial process should be born by this act.....from daily fines to remedial action....with all costs endured by him.....i can remember in the recent past all the gold miners on the rouge river near the junction of the illinois river hiding their huge water guns behind the 1872 mining act where millions of cubic yards of river bank were washed through sluice boxes.....they kept the gold but all the sediments were washed into the river.....or driving along the klamath river and watching divers with their dredges suck up the river bottom and deposit silts.....thankfully mother nature is resiliant and she will clean herself.....also i am hopeing that the pistol river was not too severly damaged and that there are lots of good spawning areas.......

[GutshotApe]

I thought floatnfish was full of it on a previous thread but this time, he is mostly right. The geology of the Pistol River basin is susceptible to rapid erosion and poorly-constructed logging roads and poorly-conducted logging leads to excessive erosion compared to other coastal areas. The good news is the erosion is heavy to gravel and now as much silt. The bad news is there is too much gravel. Bedload movement in the Pistol is excessive and is believed to crush salmonid eggs while in the redds. It also fills in holes and widens & shallows the stream. The good news is the modified forest practices act recogizes the special situation there and regulates operators accordingly. The bad news is there are always a few jerks who break the law. But, just as there are a few jerk anglers who like to snag fish on the spawning beds, you don't punish the entire group (all landowners or all anglers). You try to correct the behavior of the few jerks.

[1pump]

This guy was worried about erosion so he just alters the course of a major stream?!?!?

"I didn't think it was any big deal," he stated

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">25,000 cubic yards? That's about 2,000 dump truck loads. You don't move that much fill without help, even with heavy equipment. His accomplices need to be held accountable as well.
As for stringing a fence across the river....that just adds insult to injury.

[ 12-15-2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: 1pump ]

[skein]

Straydog - and Floatnfish,

I'm going to stay out of this argument, but I'm pretty burned out on every situation becoming an excuse and opportunity to blame a logger, no matter how far you have to reach to do it.

I read Floatnfish's post correctly, and he just decided to take the cheap shot of lumping loggers in with this scumbag. 'Taint so.

I'll sign off by saying I'm as angry about this as any of you - and I'm hoping they throw the book at him.

Skein

[Deepslayer]

Rob Allen I do believe that if he files homestead protection on his property, they can't take it away. Most of the other things you mentioned would be considered cruel and unusual punishment! I do hope the fines and lawyers fees cause him to declare bankruptcy, since hurting people's wealth seems to be the only real punishment that's effective in the U.S.A..!!!!

[TheRogue]

Gus O....Straydog had it right, it becomes ever so much more important that everyone toes the line concerning the regs, because, in my opinion, those individuals and groups that are completely anti-wild harvest, regardless of run size and stability, are looking at any excuses they can come up with to shut it down.

floatnfish.....there was significant logging activity in the lower Pistol basin, most of which was done 30-50 years ago. The majority of the Pistol headwaters spring from the Kalmiopsis, which, in case you missed it, had a little fire this year. There will probably be more problems happen from the runoff from this fire than any logging in the Pistol basin in the last 10 years.

Rob.....well, I guess I don't have any reply for your ultra-radical approach, except, "Do you have any friends in the ELF or ALF??" :whazzup: :whazzup:

TR

[SSPey]

My comment wasn't about loggers - it was about the logging industry. INDUSTRY. And it wasn't a cheap shot but a broader more inclusive view of the situation.

When industry hurts the common man (whether it acts within the law or not, recognizing that laws can be flawed and evolve over time) it creates a difficult legal situation. Some industries do not pay the full "cost" for their actions (externalized costs to those of you who took ECON 101) and these costs are passed on to us, as seems to be the case down in the Pistol River situation.

There is no question that the Pistol River moron should get his due, and I hope that he does. But I also can't ignore the broader issue of what CAUSED his problem. It is well known that excess sediment causes rivers to become more shallow, widen and cut into banks. And rest assured that it will come up in court.

[Straydog]

GSA,

Good post but you left out a couple of good news/bad news scenarios in your comparison.

Good news: it takes very little time and relativly few fish to stop and repair the damage done by a jerk snagger.

Bad news: It can take decades, thousands of dollars and the escapment of hundreds of fish to repair damage on the scale of this guys.

Good news: as you say, current forest practices are set up to prevent gravel loading in the Pistol drainage in the future, provided the rules are followed.

Bad news: it will take decades and millions of dollars to repair the damage of past forestry management practices that help contribute to this problem.

This guy will hopefully be fined and made to mitigate his damage. Snaggers are hopefully fined and made to pay for their mistakes.

How many mitigation dollars come from the perpatraters of the forestry management mistakes to fix the problems that have been created in the uplands of the Pistol River drainage?

I know millions of tax payer dollars get doled out in other areas to fix past forestry management debacles, I don't know about this drainage, do you?

Not

[ 12-16-2002, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[willierower]

What a dumb @$$!!! I hope they throw the book at him. Ol Ted has been a pain in the butt down in that area for quite awhile now. I dont think this is the first time he has been busted for doing something stupid. I will dig up some more dirt on this guy and post it here.

[GutshotApe]

SD - No I don't know the specifics of the Pistol River drainage. Its easy to imagine widespread "damage" from past logging but its mostly in the past and largely "healed".

Nature is very resilient. Stream and watershed recovery after old-style logging resembles recovery that occurs after wildfires. The Biscuit fire burned 500,000 acres and, yes, much of the area was lightly burned or skipped. But 200,000 acres of it burned hot and the streams draining these areas will be impacted. But, they too will recover. The Pistol River drainage has already recovered in large part from the logging of 20 or more years ago. It ain't gonna take decades or millions of dollars to finish the job.

This Pistol River landowner does not represent "the timber industry". He sounds like a local redneck who needs to be made an example of.

[Captn]

This thread fits nicely with WildHawg's post about river navagation/property rights. If we could get a clear definition for the State of Oregon, it would not have prevented this, but it would have added clarification that a navagatable river and river bottom, do not belong to any landowner.