I'm a snagger

[Capin' Dan]

Well I guess I am and will contiue to be until they outlaw it. according to the latest salmon/trout/steelheader Mr. Bill Herzog calls us snaggers. This means all drift fishers, Boondoggers, ect. Basically if the line can pass though in any flossing tecnique then we would be considered snaggers. Com'n guy just because you do not fish this way do not condemn those of us who do. I disagree with this topic and have lost a lot of respect for this individual. I bet if you get right down to it Bill has probably flossed more fish in the last two years than many of us will the rest of our lives. Next think you know people will tell us using buzz bombs in rivers for silvers and kings will be snagging

Can of worms opened let replies fly :smile:
Seriously though boondogging is a deadly technique that catches fish. Flossing yes maybe but I will tell you I have caught fish with the bait down there throat this way.

[ 12-03-2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Capin' Dan ]

[tag-a-long]

Well, I too am a Snagger. I went back and re-read the article. I have to admit that there is something to be said for reading comprehension. I may be a snagger, but I had to dig my books out of the trash. :blush:

[ 12-05-2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: tag-a-long ]

[C 'n' D]

I wouldn't take the comment in STS so personally. I do not have enough experience boondogging, but his comments made sense to me. I know that you need the longer leader to get the bait up off the bottom when boondogging. It would be interesting to hear from some people who boondogg alot the percentage of fish that are caught hooked from the outside - in.

CnD

[Grant Scheele]

If I recall correctly, he was talking about people that use rediculously long leaders while preforming these techniques.

[Straydog]

I didn't read into this what some evidently did and took no offense to the article. In fact, I appreciated it.

[SalmonJeff]

I also saw the article in S.T.S and I didn't take it that way at all. I seem to think that he was talking about the hook arangement with the center corkyand 2 hooks rather then the act of boondogin or side drifting. the technique is deady effective if used properly and I am sure that Bill Would not say that all side drfiting is snagging.

Maybe I am and idiot [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] but I thought it was just the 2 hook and center corky with a huge long leader that he had a problem with

[corrirod]

I use a very short leader, at least I think it's short, about 18" and hammer the fish boondoggin. I've caught a lot of fish that way and I can only think of 1 time I didn't hook one in the inside of the mouth and it was actually hooked by the tail. I use the same setup when I drift fish.

[Cap'n Ron]

Didnt read the article but I boondog A LOT and never have hooked a fish on the outside of the mouth. About 1 or 2 times per year will get one snagged in the tail or belly but out of a couple hundred fish I think that is a pretty good ratio. Anyway, the point is I have never, ever seen evidence of a floss while boondogging.

[corrirod]

I just went back and reread my book from Bill on Steelhead Drift Fishing and he recommends using up to a 34 inch leader in clear water conditions and promotes the fact that a Pip's leader dispenser holds leaders up to 36 inches long.

If you look at the plain physics of both boondoggin and drift fishing, drift fishing would be more likely to floss or snag fish. In boondoggin the weight is traveling with you in the current at a 45 degree angle up stream with the leader and bait following directly behind the sinker parallel to the current. In drift fishing your weight travels perpendicular to your pole for most of its travel and tends to hang up and allow the leader to travel perpendicular to the current which leads to flossing.

Looks to me like Bill is a snagger to?

[ 12-03-2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: corrirod ]

[skein]

Yep, me too. I didn't read the magazine, but I've boondogged with Grant and never felt like we were flossing. In fact, the way we were doing it the thought never even came to mind. Maybe Bill H needs to go fishing with Grant. :grin:

Corrirod, I didn't know you fished fresh water???? When did you do that? Are you running that dory up the Clack again?!?!

Skein

[West Linn Wader]

Forgive my ignorance but I'm not certain I understand exactly what flossing is. I've imagined it meant trying to get your line to drift through stacked fish and then giving the line a yank if it got caught up in hopes of being fast enough to get the hook to stick somewhere.

Is this accurate? Does it really work that well? Why would longer leaders make a difference?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not looking for a new technique :smile: I ask because I never thought it would work that well. I assume you'd be attempting to get the line to catch in a fishes mouth which would only happen while it was open. I would think there were easier ways to snag a fish but I could be wrong.

The

[Twitchs_Tackle]

West Linn~
You'd be correct in your assumption about trying to get the line to pass through the mouth of the fish, hence, Floss(ing). But it can be easier than you think. As fish hold in water column, they as I'm sure you know, respirate by passing water over their gills. Depending on the water they may be holding in, they may open and close their mouths at different intervals.

SOMETIMES, and depending on your rig set up (longer leaders, smaller swivels/weights, etc)you will drift your leader, not the bait into the fishes mouth. As the current, or the fisherman, drags the line down current or sets teh hook, it can cause the hook to enter through the outside of the fish's jaw, penetrating through to the interior. It looks backwards of the normal, corner of the mouth, hook set.

According to state law, fish must be hooked in the mouth, from the inside out. I have seen a guy ticketed for keeping a springer hooked from the outside tip of its nose, with the hook point extruding from the inside of the mouth.

Hope this helps... :smile:

[corrirod]

Yeah Skein, I do fish freshwater too! I'm mean come on, I've got to have somewhere to wash the salt off!

Do you really think if I trimmed the motor enough I could get the dory up the Clack? Hmmmmm........ [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[ 12-03-2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: corrirod ]

[Tillamook Born]

I agree,
I have noticed that STS also sells advertising for the Jim Teeney nymphs. I have on NUMEROUS occassions witnessed "salmon anglers" using teeney nymphs and hook fish on the outside of the jaw. Does this mean that STS is also a flosser. I am not saying that all people that fish these nymphs are snaggers, but the majority of the fish I see caught this was have been flossed. Just my .02.
TB

[BonkBonkBonk]

oh no! flossing is causing the moral decay of fisherman! run away!

[DanS]

So, reading comprehension wasn't a real strong suit for some?

There's a REASON for using a 6-foot leader sidedrifting from a boat. There really isn't from the bank....it doesn't do anything for you.

Herzog DID NOT call sidedrifters flossers. He called drift fishers using 10-12 foot leaders flossers. The presentation is ENTIRELY different when using long leaders in a boat vs. off the bank.

PS: STS is a magazine that doesn't fish.....it just sits there. If guys use Teeny nymphs to floss, then I guess it's the guy's fault not the nymph.

I guess some are just looking to be offended.

[ 12-03-2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]

[GOT2FISH]

Is this a new issue? I thought I read all the last one does someone know the name of the artical? And as far as the Buzz Bomber goes if you remember right I was the one refured to as a snagger by a local store emploee when I told them I hooked a ten pound coho on the salmon, My point is no matter how you fish and how hard you try to do it the right way someone will have something bad to say about it.

[Mad Mikey]

Corrirod,

>>>I just went back and reread my book from Bill on Steelhead Drift Fishing <<<

If memory serves me correctly the steelhead drift fishing book is authored by Bill Luch, not Herzog. At least the one I read years back was.

[SKP]

I've fished the South Santiam with 6 foot leaders and a corkie and caught steelhead hooked in the throat, upper mouth palate, side of the mouth, tongue, etc. When the water is low and clear, it calls for longer leaders. This is not snagging or flossing. Summer steelhead are agressive biters.

And the very few fish I've seen foul hooked at Wiley's Creek were released. Those people are not snaggers or flossers up there as some might claim. Most leaders up there are 4 to 6 feet long in the low water, and shorter in the higher water.

Add to it a pinch of eggs, and you'll slam the jacks up there, and an occaisional nook.

SKP

[guitgary]

I am another one full of ignorance...what is boondoogling?(sp)

[willierower]

Guitgary,
It what I was doing when you saw me last friday on the Wilson. If you would ever like a firsthand demonstration just let me know :smile:

[Straydog]

SShhheesssh........ are people just looking for trouble?

I reread the article and it talks about a form of drift fishing utilizing a rediculously long leader.

I did not even see the word boondog in the article.

I don't get why this was even brought up. :whazzup:

[corrirod]

Mad Mikey,

I have the "Color Guide to Steelhead Drift Fishing" and it's written by Bill Herzog for Frank Amato Publications circa 1994.

I did not read the article in STS and was merely commenting on my perspective of boondogging, which is that it is less likely a method for snagging than drift fishing. If Bill was talking about snagging "holes" and excessive leaders for drift fishing then this thread never should have been started.

[willierower]

Did you actually READ the article? If you had and understood what was written, We wouldnt be having this discussion.

Bill was refering to the people that fish holes that are stacked with fish with 9, 10, and even 12 foot leaders with small hooks and corkies. If you would like to se what he is refering to, Just go to the Lewis at the Salmon Hatchery, The Cowlitz at Blue Creek or the S. Santiam at Wiley Creek. Those places are a overrun by snaggers/flossers.

Ive fished with Herzog. You know how we fished? We drift fished! We used 28 to 30" leaders with single barbless 1/0 hooks and either a Spin-N-Glow or an Oakie drifter. Thats fishing not snagging!

[Wet_Willy]

Go back and re-read the article. I think you are not getting his point. "True sport fishing is when the fish move to the lure, not by bringing the lure to the fish"...He goes on to say "Let me please comment on on the new fad of using small double hooks on rediculously long leaders. Do I even have to break down why these tandem hooks (with small drift bobber tied between them)combined with rod-length leaders are possibly the most efficient lining/snagging tools available?" He is also talking about piled up fish that have gone off the bite...and concedes that under the right conditions fish do take them, especially with a bit of bait...

Doesn't look like he is making too broad a statement about side drifters, but he is certainly making a statement about guys using a common side drift rigging but with 8'6" leaders...

Bill

[micropterus101]

Originally posted by DanS:


There's a REASON for using a 6-foot leader sidedrifting from a boat. There really isn't from the bank....it doesn't do anything for you.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I use 6 foot leaders for steelies and havent snagged one yet and yes there is a reason!

As a matter of fact Isnt wasnt long ago when people were complaining about short leaders which are better for snagging anyways!

I have had people tell me that if you are drift fishing without bait you are snagging!

I think everybody need to chill out and fish.

[DanS]

So what does that 6 foot leader accomplish from the bank that a 40" leader wouldn't? Do you really need your bait 6 feet downstream of your swivel?

[Quasimodo the fish killer]

Heck I dont think that drift fishing would normally floss many fish. drift fishing is my main way to fish steelies. in my experiences I have rarely just had fish just on the hook and usually feel them drill my bait pretty hard.

I guess they like my eggs or something

I use no more then a 36 in leader in the summer and catch just as many as the guys with the 6ft leaders on my local river.

I always figured that if you have the right amount of lead that your hook would travel straight out from your lead dropper and I can see how it is possible to line a fish thru the mouth. I would assume a fish lined thru the mouth you wouldnt feel biting your bait it would just all of a sudden be there.

if I remember right herzhog is a spoon fisherman and I would think that a spoon is more likely to line a fish thru the mouth because all the weight is at the end of the line. I dont know I could be wrong but seems like he is acting like the die hard fly guys that think rolling bait isnt a ethical way of fishing who knows.

untill they out law drift fishing you will see me out there doing it

[rookie]

Just keep in mind thst several issues ago Bill H.)General Zog) who I am a big fan of, rated all the different steelhead techniques and said side drifting was for fishing idoits with very little skill needed to be sucessful. So he does not have much respect for anyone with type of fishing setup remotely like this. But I still love the guy, he is the funniest guy in the sport period.

[Wet_Willy]

Rookie,
For everybody in the boat except the guy running it, side drifting is not a very difficult technique. If you can cast to a spot you can side drift. The guy running the boat is basically fishing for everybody and it takes a lot of skill to do that effectively. Since the fish are stationary and the boat is moving, the opposite movements will many times set the hook as well. So what zog said is partially true.
Bill

[KingFisher85]

In referrence to the debate about the meaning and merits of Bill's (Herzog) piece about lining ("flossing") fish at the end of his most recent STS column. I had already read it, and just read it again trying to see how it might be misunderstood.

To quote Bill - "Allow me to vent ,,,,, about a style of drift 'fishing' that has unfortunately reared it's ugly head ,,,,," - and he also refers to "when those piled up salmonids go off the bite due to low water or a heavy pounding". No doubt he is referring to stationary drift fishing, from bank or anchored boat, on stacked up fish in a hole. Nowhere does he refer to long leaders for side-drifting/boondogging. I agree with him that there is no benefit to hooking fish ethically and legally drift fishing with leaders over 5' long, or even over 3' long as he mentions in his book (see paragraph below). Side-drifting/boondogging over long distances with the lead periodically ticking bottom will swing the leader and hooks around to be parallel with the river's current, and thus the corkie/bait comes to the fish first, to either be taken or dodged. Fishing in that manner will not line/floss fish. But a long leader perpendicular to the current, enabling it to enter a fish's mouth that is opening it to breath via water flow over it's gills, can line/floss hook a fish on the outside of it's jaw or head.

Bill goes on to say "Let me please comment on the new fad of using small double hooks on rediculously long leaders." ... I agree that casting these with a small amount of lead attached near the swivel end with the weight of 2 hooks on the other end enables the whole thing to float laterally just off bottom thru a school of stacked up fish, eventually finding it's way into one of their mouths that's open for 'breathing'. That stops the mainline progress, and can cause some head shaking movement as well, and the 'flosser' will then typically yank a grand slam swing of a hook set - setting the hook(s) into the outside of the fish's jaw. By definition of Wash./Ore. fishing regs this is an illegal fish to keep, and the gammies are now handing out tickets to guys that do. And even ticketing guys obviously attempting to hook fish in this manner.

Since this non-sportfishing method is now getting publicity via websites and periodicals, I am concerned more unethical guys (usually ones who are over-challenged to hook them by getting the fish to take their bait/lure voluntarily) will try doing this now. So it's a good thing the number of tickets and fines for it are on the increase. The publicity will also tend to earn unethical flossers some more flack from real fishermen near them. Good.
Another note: if you hear of someone regularly boasting of hooking 50 +/- fish a day when the salmon are stacked up thick, but not biting well, 'dollars to donuts' they are flossers! Give them the evil eye and appropriate words when you see them doing this.

As for drift fishing leader lengths, Bill has written that even in clear water there's no benefit to using them longer than 36" in his book. The reason is that fish seldom get spooked or even distracted by a naturally drifting small piece of dull lead 2' to 3' away from a bait and plastic rig that stands out much more to them and comes to their face first. Furthermore, the longer the leader the longer it takes to de-slack when a fish picks up the bait, thus allowing it more time to spit the hook before you feel it for hook setting purposes. The exception to that is when float fishing slow currents, in which longer leaders are alright to use and in some instances may enable a more natural movement to a light bait. But that is not what was referred to in his column.