Oxide vs. Metal rod guides

ultralight · 12-02-2003, 08:36 PM

It seems there is a plethora of IM7 rods with metal guides (Berkley Air Buzz Ramsey, Lamiglas Cascade, and I think even Shakespeare Intrepid), and I was wondering what you guys think about the metal guides? The metal inserts seem very flat and sharp at the edges, which could potentially damage the line when there is a bend on the rod. Contrary to the smooth and generally round oxide guides, the metal rings, whatever they're made of, seem like a step down. They do feel pretty light, however. Can somebody shed some light on these relatively new guides, in terms of performance and durability?

Flatfish · 12-02-2003, 08:41 PM

I think the manufacturers put them on because the superbraids are hard on ceramic inserts.

Will tell you what I think in a few years.

I have not had any problems with several rods and Tuf line. But I have heard stories....

Mark and the dog.

cully · 12-02-2003, 08:51 PM

I've got 4 Im7s Two lamiglass and two Berkley. The guides on the lamiglass especially the spinning rod lamiglass is groved and pitted. And it ruined line every trip out until i figured out why. I contacted the factory and they said they had been sent a batch of bad guides. I Guess. To go through the hassel and cost of getting it to them to see if "they would aprove the damage and repair" seemed to be more than its worth. And guess what. I broke that very rod tip top last trip out. I just epoxied a new tip top and it's better than ever. Both my bait cast rods Im7's are fine. I won't risk buying another i don't think. Well see.

ultralight · 12-03-2003, 01:11 PM

cully,

Is the Lami you talking about the Cascade series?

It seems to me that all these different brand rods are being manufactured at a same location, all using same IM7 blanks and the thin stainless steel? guide rings. Didn't Berkley Air Buzz Ramsey rods used to have Al. oxide guides just a year ago? Anyway, I want to know if there are any problems (or not) with these skimpy looking metal guides.

BonkBonkBonk · 12-04-2003, 10:30 AM

older im7s dont have the all metal guides...

Fish Finder · 12-04-2003, 04:33 PM

silicon carbide guide is the way to go. Better than any oxide or ceramic.

Fast Action · 12-04-2003, 11:07 PM

[ 12-05-2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Fast Action ]

The Overfishin Condition · 12-04-2003, 11:32 PM

I've always heard that you aren't supposed to use tuff on metal guides because it will cut through them, you want to use it on rods that have ceramic or oxide guides. Just what've heard at GI Joes and other reputable sources.

cully · 12-05-2003, 04:32 AM

ultralite, It's just the lamiglass Im7, the Berkley IM7 rods i have are fine.. I don't know about the cascade series but to define which one I do have I can tell you it retails for 79.00 and is often on sale a GIjoes for 59.00. I suspect since customer service emailed me and told me that they had recieved a bad batch of guides, they have corrected their problem. Who knows, but I doubt I'll risk buying another. A darn shame though as I really like the rods. I only use mono on my rods so it wasn't a tuff line issue for me. If I were to suggest anything it would be to buy the Berkely Im7

ultralight · 12-05-2003, 05:25 AM

I think the SiC and Titanium coated guides will handle spectra/braided lines just fine. My main concern with these particular metal guides is that they seem too flimsy and have sharp metal edges. I think you have to see the one's I'm talking about to understand my concerns.

cully,

I think the Lamiglas rod you have IS the Cascade series with IM7 blank and the thin metal guides I'm talking about, although they may have slightly different guides, depending on when they were manufactured. And I think they were about $79 at Bi-mart. I guess you haven't seen the Berkley AIR IM7 rod I saw. As I mentioned in my starting post, they too have the thin, flimsy metal guides. It's my belief that the older rods used to have the aluminum oxide guides. I kinda get the feeling that some of you guys are not talking about the same guides I'm discussing here. They're really really thin, shiny (like nickel), and even the ring frame is thinner.

Fish Finder · 12-05-2003, 08:43 PM

From my understanding Berkey was having problem with their previous guide. They were popping out and also made the rod heavier too. So they went to the metal guide to solve the problem. I have problem with metal guide before with braided line , especially braided line that is not coated. My theory is with the uncoated line, when you're fishing in silky water for example like tide water the line pick up fine particals. During the retreaving and casting the line with the particles act as wet sandpaper and the friction will eventually groove the mental guide. Same thing with the oxide and ceramic. All my rod are now with Fuji silcon carbide(Sic) and I have not have problem with any of them yet. I hope this help shed some light a little bit.

Fast Action · 12-05-2003, 09:21 PM

I use to use Fuji and now I use Forecast unless a customer wants Fuji. In all the years I have fished with Braided line I have never had them groove.

I have never had my guide inserts pop or break either. Guides get trashed when rods are treated like trash. If you take care of them and do not throw them around they last for years and years.

I am trying to picture these metal guides. Are they the ones that look really thin and do not have an insert? If it is what I am thinking of they are junk.

Fuji Sic are over rated and over priced. If you take care of a rod standard Fuji Hardloy guides work just fine.

For the weight, performance, appearance, and price stainless steel, Titanium coated frames, with Zirconium Rings will last a life time.

Melting point for Zirconium is 1852 �C. Braided line friction is obvioulsy not going to create that much heat from friction to create a groove.

There you have it.

ultralight · 12-05-2003, 09:30 PM

Hi Fish Finder,

Aren't you the guy who bought my waders? If so, how's it working out for you? I hope you've caught many nice fish inside them!

Thanks for the input on the guides. I, too, have read about the small particles doing the damage. But I also have some people tell me that they have had no problems after using braided lines for years. And since I've used braided on several occasions, I haven't had any problems yet. So, you've actually had some grooves in your guides caused by the braided lines? Also, do you know which braided lines are coated and which are not?

I think the SiC guides generally come with $$$$ rods, so I doubt I'll have them anytime soon. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

BTW, I was mistaken about the Lamiglas Cascade Pro rods having the thin metal guides - it was the Lamiglas Trophy series rods with them skinny metal guides.

Thumper · 12-05-2003, 09:36 PM

This is a little bit off the subject, but a number of lower-priced rods will blow their tip-top inserts when bobber/jig fishing. The problem results from the bobber stop knot whacking the insert each time it goes whizzing through the tip. For Northriver rods I have gone back to Fisherman's with the problem and had them install a Fuji tip-top, at no charge of course.

Love them Northrivers.

ultralight · 12-05-2003, 09:43 PM

That's exactly what I'm concerned about with them thin metal guides. It just makes me think that somebody wasn't thinking when they designed that thing

Actually I'm surprised that the ring actually popped out. My expectation was that the relatively sharped edges would weaken the mono or that the braided line could fray quicker. I guess I'll have to send Berkley a note and see what they have to say about it.

ultralight · 12-06-2003, 01:56 PM

I'm glad the waders are working well for ya.

Thanks for the differentiating the coated and non-coated braided lines. That seems like a lot of fishing (and fish caught), to have experienced all the different brands and to have worn out the guides. I will have to look into getting some custom rods with SiC guides in the future. I was only thinking about the $300 GLoomis and Lamiglas rods when I pictured SiC guides, but I guess there were other less expensive options.

The sad part is that all my braided lines are Tuf Line stuff...Plus, XP, etc. Well I guess I'll have to wear out some grooves in my cheap rods and then I'll have an excuse to order some custom rods :smile:

Fish Finder · 12-06-2003, 11:00 PM

Ultralight, yes I did buy the breathable wader from you. It's working well for me. For your question on which braided line is coated, the powerpro, whiplash, and fireline are coated. I personally like the powerpro over the others because the coating isn't as thick as the other two. I perfer the coated line in a baitcaster. Now for the non-coated line like the Ripcord, Tuffline Plus and Tuffline XP, I have used them all and currently I have two reels with tuffline XP and Plus. My problem was with two setup. A salmon bobber setup I heavyly use in tide water. After two season the line went form a white to a tan color with heavy build up and yes I do rinse it after each use. The rod was on a new Berkley IM7 with the oxide or ceramic the factory put on it. After two season the rod is ruin. The tip was replace, the third guide ring form the tip is loose. The rest have some wore on them. If you put lighting on the guide you'll see the wore out area. And running your finger nail through the area it will catches. The area of damage is toward the rod where it's loaded up. The second is a spinning setup on a Grigg rod with metal guides with Cabela's Ripcord. I've replace both setup with custom Rogues with Fugi SiC guides. As I stated before I have not have any problem yet. I truly believe it not the heat generated from the fiction of the line that does the damage but the line picking up fine particles that cause the fine scratches that eventually turn in to grooves.