Rogue Guides

[GutshotApe]

Anybody else find the numbers of guides on the Rogue to be as overwhelming as I do? I've just about quit fishing the lower Rogue because of unpleasant encounters with rude, overly-aggressive guides feverishly intent on getting their "dudes" the limit at all costs.

Trolling in the estuary one guide ran the bow of his 22' boat right up over my trolling motor and into the back of my boat - and had the gall to tell me that I wasn't going fast enough .

Another time my partner & I got to Quosatana ramp late sunday evening and there were five guide DBs there (the dudes all gone home) and one trailer for all 5 boats. The tow rig & trailer parked in the middle of the 2-lane ramp, we had to sit there for over an hour while the guide's flunkies unloaded each boat, rinsed the boats out in the river, nested the boats all on the one trailer, then meticulously cleaned and reloaded all the removable gear into the pickup. I asked them if they could please move over so we could get out - but, no, they were there first and apparently believed they owned that ramp .

Then there was the time below the 101 bridge when there were banks of very dense fog that cut visibility to about 50' or less in places. A guide in a plastic tri-hull with 4 dudes hooked and landed a fish. By the time it was netted the boat had drifted 100-200 yds downstream. Even though the lower bay was very crowded with boats all over the place, and even though visibility was restricted, this idiot guide powered up and ran back upstream at full throttle in order to reclaim "his" spot. It was a miracle he didn't ram someone .

Another time I was fishing the drift right in front of my campsite up in the canyon at the crack of dawn and had a guide with 2 dudes pull up and anchor 20' right in front of me and commence fishing - I said something and he replied that "this is his regular spot but his dudes were late so he was late getting upriver". Nevermind that I was there first.

I heard there are close to 500 members of the Rogue Guides Assn. If so, that sounds like about 450 too many! Are the guides as thickheaded and as rude upstream in the GP-ShadyCove areas as they are downstream? :whazzup:

p.s. Yes, I know its early in the morning but I can't help myself.

[Straydog]

GSA,

You have very accurately described why I have a, shall we say, 'tainted' view of many guides.

Allow me to qualify and say I know there are good ones and bad ones in all groups but my lifetime on the Rogue has given me cause to hold guides in less than favorable esteem in many cases.

The upper river is not quite as bad as the lower except at certain times but it surely has it's moments and individuals that make it tough to be civil sometimes.

In fact, in my work travels I often get razzed by my Roseburg customers and their customers about the attitude of our Rogue guides. Often when the fish are missing or the river is blown our guides will head north for the Umpqua or Coquille and have earned themselves quite a reputation.

I almost bet I could name the outfitter that hogged the ramp down at Quosatana Cr...... he and I and I have had words in the past at Foster Bar. That was many years ago when besides stacking 5 boats and hogging the ramp, he was hauling out 5 coolers FULL of half pounders. Many years later, (2000?) this same guide was one of the instigaters in getting the bait ban implemented in the lower canyon. I said at that time and will say it again, we don't have a method problem hurting our fisheries, we have a number of guides problem hurting our fisheries.

I still believe that but must tread lightly on the subject in my line of work...... :depressed:

[ 11-22-2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Yeah, I'm sure there are many responsible, professional, thoughtful and courteous guides out there - it just seems like few of that type work the lower Rogue. I spoke frankly with the Rogue Guide Ass. President and expressed my opinion on the subject - told him his association had better start policing their own ranks or we, the rest of Oregon, would do it for them. He looked at me as if I was speaking a foreign language :shocked: . No comprende.

Another example of the Tragedy of the Commons, I guess. :depressed:

[Straydog]

GSA,

Allow me to help get your weekend off to a good start (as if days of the week matter to YOU! :tongue: ) and offer you a 'gimmee'.

My experience tells me that the quantity of guides increased in proportion to the number of timber industry jobs that went away over the years.......... [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] I know, I know, 'darned tree huggers fault!'

[GutshotApe]

There is some truth to what you said! When the big local sawmill shut down (due to federal timber sales being stopped by enviro lawsuits) several millworkers became guides, or assistant guides. One, the husband of a gal in my office, had never fished or hunted much but was hired by a Rogue Guide to run dudes in the extra boat from Graves Cr to Foster Bar. As far as I know, he didn't drown any but had several close calls at Coffepot and Blossom Bar. He sank a boat at Blossom but the dudes got out on a boulder and were picked up.

And, yes, everyday is like saturday when you're retired/unemployed. I'm headed over the hill in a few minutes to try my spot on the Siuslaw. One thing that changes when you stop working is you soon discover just how crowded it is on weekends - and how much more fun it is monday-friday with no crowds.

[tailchaser]

I know first hand what these guys are like becuase this time of year they start to Migrate North to the Elk and Sixes rivers. Basically at the end of this month both rivers will be chucked full of them and thier attitudes to boot. I even had one guide (I won't mention his name on here but will on emails) tell me that by me getting to the holes before him I was screwing with his livelyhood. And I should have the respect of letting him fish the holes first since he has paying clients and I'm doing it free. You can probably guess what my response was to that with some one-fingered waves and a little inbetween. So the next time he came downriver he plopped his anchor line over the top of my lines in the middle of the hole. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] After a close encounter with flying lead weights he decided to move.

On one day last year there were 100 boat trailers at the take out of the elk river. 93 were guides! All of which were from Gold Beach south all the way into California. It's almost gotten to the point where I won't fish the river until late december when they all leave. Sad I have to make my plans around the crap that goes on there.

tc

[Biteme]

I am a guide but I dont fish the rogue, I can only speak for myself when I say that for the most part I try to get along with all of the recreational fisherman and give them the same respect i would like to recieve in return. I have however seen plenty of non guides act in the same manner that you described here. when it comes to rude behavior I dont think the guides have this market cornered.

I think the insurance companies that insure guides are in the process of thinning us out the rates are going up dramatically and the company I have been using, and wont be anymore has completely quit insuring anyone operating on the rogue.

[Straydog]

We have had two drownings out of guides boat this year that I know of..... one at Dunn riffle (no life vest on!) and the other at the Coffee Pot.

I can understand why the insurance companies would take a dim view of this.

As one poster said, there is also no shortage of jerks in the recreational sector as well but the attitude that since they make thier living (in some cases) from guiding they should be afforded special advantages is rampant in the guiding profession it seems.

I do not subscribe to the line of thought.

[You Betcha]

I think that because guides are on the rivers everyday and they are taking out clients that are usually new to our sport, we hold them to a little higher standard than average.
[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Unfortunatly some don't meet this expectation.
At Chinook Landing in the fall and spring salmon seasons, some guides launch and tie up there boats at the ends of the launching docks and wait for 20 miniutes or more for their clients. This causes a mess for the fishermen (and fisherwomen) launching behind them. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]
Then we have guides like Jack Glass that launch and tie up on the guest dock out of everyones way and wait.
It doesn't take an experienced fisherperson long to recognize a class act in a guide boat.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[Smj]

I've got an idea that I haven't heard floated yet. With the number of guides that fish coastal and inland waters for salmon and steelhead being 1000 or 2000+?? how about a fee on guides to help our hatcheries? I look at it this way, evey time I fish I spend money, evey time a guide fishes he makes money! If a guide payed a yearly fee of say, $500.00 to $1000.00 this would have to help the hatcheries and possibly reduce the over crowding of guides in some fisheries.
Comments??

Smj

[tailchaser]

I agree with Biteme on the fact there's a lot of bad apples with the public sector too, but the lack of holes in a river for everyone to fish is an increasing problem. Man, if only fishing could be as easy as the ocean. I just wish there was a way to limit boats or something on these local rivers. Mark my words, I will never fish the Rogue in the fall after the things I saw this year in tidewater. A salmon isn't worth that hassle for me. It's absolute craziness. The guides expected you to move for them as they often had their boat barely off of your lines in the water. I guess there's no simple fix to this one, but on the water everyone's equal whether you're a guide or not. Those who think we owe them the courtesy of moving over have to think again. I guess if I had to deal with crap down there every day I'd be a pretty bitter person too.

tc

[RichH]

On the guide fee thing, they already pay for a license and they also pay for tackle, shuttle, gas, etc the same as the rest of us. I feel that most guides give back as much if not more than they take. I don't know if you recall but last spring Marty was offering 1/2 price trips as long as you donated something (not specified as to amount) to help out with the broodstock program on the Nestucca. Would you be willing to take 1/2 pay for 1 month for hatcheries?

[Smj]

Bully for Marty! Really!

So give Marty a tax credit of sorts under the new fee?

Smj

[Straydog]

What is the fee for a guides license these days?

Also, know that many factories have guides programs whereby the middle men are eliminated....... no wholesale or retail involvment. Also know that many expect and often get discounts from retailers for their tackle and accessories.

Don't get me wrong, I understand and appreciate what the good ones do for the fisheries and the industry. But none of that gives them the right expect preferential treatment on the water.

[fishpatrol]

I watched a guide on the lower Rogue yell and scream "I'm gonna hit you!" at an ORB who was trying his best to get his boat out of the way. A client had hooked a fish and the guide was backing down at full throttle trying to keep his "dude" hooked. Backing down on a salmon? Maybe a marlin, but not a salmon in a river with 300 boats.

Every time we got close to the guide, I would tell my 9 year old to yell, "I'm gonna hit you"

The same guide was with three other boats (all guides)abreast trolling down the estuary. Being the personable guy I am, I trolled way behind them. Wasn't far enough. I was told to "give them some room". About 15 seconds later we hooked a nice 30lb'er. In Yo Face!

It's bad enough on the water, but at the ramp or fillet tables these guys act like they own the facility. They talk crap and hog the place like they built it. I like the Rogue, I don't fish there a whole heck of a lot, but I will definitely keep it on my list of places to go, just for the entertainment.

[TheRogue]

A client had hooked a fish and the guide was backing down at full throttle trying to keep his "dude" hooked. Backing down on a salmon? Maybe a marlin, but not a salmon in a river with 300 boats.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I beg to differ with you. It's a very shallow bay, the fish are hot, and they can be big. I will always back down to a fish, and stay right on top of them if possible. I expect everyone to watch out and be ready to move. Conversely, I am always ready to move out of someone else's way if they're on a fish. This tactic will ALWAYS be better in the end, because most of the time, these fish will run hot and hard a couple of times just under the surface. Nothing's worse than loosing a big fish because your line's got 10 lines tangled on it.

The VAST MAJORITY of the local guides are courteous and more than happy to provide tips and information. The core of these guys (and gals) fish this river all year, and don't race up and down the Pacific coastline like more and more are doing. As usual, it only takes a few bad eggs to make the whole batch look rotten. I can name a few right off the top, and they've been that way for years. They catch fish, though, and most of the people that fish with them come back for more the next year.

It's definitely time to limit the guides on the lower Rogue. And perhaps a "no-guide day", like Wednesdays and Sundays.

TR

[ 11-22-2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[DriftR]

There are always bad apples in bunch. It's crowded no matter where you fish. Look at some of the class guides, Marty Peterson and Jack Glass. You see them on the river doing their job and not hurting anyone. They take the bad rap for the unprofessional guides. Look at what Marty and Jack and good quality guides have done. They work hard on the broodstock programs, take people out on special events, spend time getting interviewed about their profession all without getting paid. Ask yourself this, when it's blowing rain or snow sideways and miserable do you go out? These guys still take clients out fishing rain, snow and even if their sick or family members are sick. Give the good ones a break and forget the bad ones.

[fishing is life]

wow, i have never fished the Rogue, but i think i will think twice about it in the future. are most of the clients from CA? this post makes me appreciate the fishing up here more. the guides up here are mostly courteous and respectful.

[GutshotApe]

Oregon doesn't make 'em put signs around their necks showing place of origin, but it may not be a bad idea . I've always suspected most of the clients using guides on the Rogue estuary are Californians but there are undoubtedly some from elsewhere, too. The guide boat that practically climbed into the back of my boat because I was "going too slow" had four smirking bozos in it who I would bet big $$$ were fresh off I-5 from San Fernando. BTW, we caught salmon that day, trolling too slow or not .

Yeah, probably only 5% of the guides are first class jerks - but when there are 200 guide boats in the bay than means 10 of 'em are being operated by first class jerks - and those guys have a way of getting around, it seems. :depressed:

[roundbelly]

i think if you buy a drift boat a guide liscense comes with it.

[RichH]

The only people I advocate preferential treatment for on the water is kids. Everyone else should expect to be treated as they treat others. Common courtesy is sorely lacking these days. There are plenty of guides that lack it as well. I think they tend to stick out more because by applying a guide sticker to their boat they are more visable. Most guides I've had contact with recognize that fact and tend to behave very well. There have been some amazing examples of complete idiots talked about in this thread and I believe that most of those type of guides tend to get weeded out by natural selection. IMHO.

[Straydog]

Roundbelly,

Although I think you said that somewhat in jest, I think you also identified a big part of the problem, at least from my experience on the Rogue and other south state streams.

[ 11-23-2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[fishpatrol]

So now the excuse for the guides behavior is the origin of their clients?

As for the backing down issue, keep the boat's orientation so the angler doesn't have to jump around the boat and keep the boat straight under power, but backing down? Come on!

I've seen some really good info on this board, but some of the bashing should be directed at the source - and it's not another state's residents.

[TheRogue]

So tell me...if your fish takes a run across the bay, you're just going to sit and let it go?? If so, I'd have to say you're part of the problem down there!! Please try to stay on top of your fish, and cut down on the number of tangles! Like it will really hurt you to pull your lines and move while someone else is chasing a fish, as well. :whazzup: :whazzup:

Each place has it's own correct ways to fish. I was born and raised on that bay. I remember when we ran a 1/2 oz banana sinker 100+ feet behind the boat, and 30 boats on the weekend was very crowded!! We used to anchor right down in the mouth, and mooch anchovies!! It' all changed, but for those of you who just can't stand it, come on up to the Portland Metro area. It's no different up here in places, and it's been that way for a long time.

TR

[GutshotApe]

Fishpatrol - Californian bashing has been a state sport in Oregon since probably 1859. Don't take it personally . Some of my best friends are ex-goldenstaters and individually most Californians are fine people. Its just that there are SO DANG MANY of you! :grin:

One useful thing that has come from this thread is an idea that may help fund our struggling [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] fish hatcheries - and that is charging guided tourist anglers a little extra to help support the hatcheries. Since Oregon has no sales tax, visitors get off without contributing their fair share to support the facilities they use. And those visitors who can afford to hire guides stand a very good chance of catching and bonking hatchery salmon that cost a lot of money to raise. So why not institute a guided angler surcharge of $10/trip. Could raise $2 or $3 million a year, or more. After all, guides enable total rookies to suddenly become experts and catch fish as if they had "paid their dues" by learning about the fish, investing in gear, boats, etc. like the rest of us. Seems like a workable and fair idea and one that could actually raise a substantial amount of revenue and wouldn't hurt the guiding business, either.

[fishpatrol]

I will be the first to pull my lines and move when someone hooks a fish. If at all possible I will try to live boat my fish and get a good fight. I am not an advocate of chasing fish all over the Bay, I think this creates even more of a problem. If I let my fish make one of those runs as you suggest, I'd probably be spooled more often. The guide I saw was yelling at the top of his lungs at some poor old guy who was doing his best to get out of the way. IMHO there is no excuse for that.

Rogue, I respect that you were raised on "the Bay", but fishing is fishing. There are a lot of minor deviations, for instance- why do people on the Rogue just go anywhere they want? It sure would be nice if you didn't have people cutting directly in front of your boat. I've fished a few rivers and bays and it seems like the Rogue is flush with people who have no common sense especially in the summer - and I didn't see all CF #'s on those boats!

I certainly don't want to make excuses for CA idiots. There are many, many to choose from. But, I think each state could claim some. And I'm willing to compromise, just put a So in front of the CA and you won't have any argument from me.

[M W Sheller]

Common sense isn't. common courtesy isn't either.
The south coast rivers have no corner on the "rude behavior" market. The very best guides look, and act just like you and I, except for the sticker on their boat. They are easy to fish around, but, in my experience, the good ones are a small minority. The rest are very easy to remember. I call them prostitutes.

[HOGTIDE]

....well, I don't know any guides personally. And, I don't know if they make big bucks or average bucks. But I do know that stickin' it to em with a tax, just because they irritate you, is a lousy approach. Have you ever fished 6 days in a row with a windburnt face, line-cut hands and tangle prone customers? My guess is, it might be a very miserable job a good chunk of the time. They are basically small businessmen tryin' to make a living out in the weather. Hitting them with a tax just appears to be a cheap shot at an easy target to me.

Sometimes I think we get the wrong impression of guides due to their equipment, too. You watch them back a $45k turbo deisel down the ramp to launch a $40k aluminum monster sled and assume they are livin' the high life. You can later watch these same guys drive home to some very, very humble abodes, to put it politely.

If you want to tax someone, lets tax the NBA idiots......."I can jam a ball...pass me a joint...how bout a few $mill more on my next contract".
{FYI: Did you know that Rasheed Wallace makes just under $200K per game?}

[Smj]

Well Hogtide, I'd say that if your job is so tough and miserable that you might want to be in another line of work? And I would most certainly agree that we ought to tax the crap out of the over paid pro sports jocks! Ok ,lets see, last year how many fish did the NBA put in their boats and how much money did they earn doing that? My point, I pay money every time I fish, guides make money when they fish.

I'm a smoker, sad to say, it was ok for the non smokers to jam us with another tax to take care of the extra health care we are supposed to need, would you consider that a cheap shot?
Any of our better than average guides out there care to chip in on this and tell us how many fish they put in the box in a year???

Bet not.

I don't have anything personal against guides, I just think they get more bang for the buck than the average joe fisherman from the hatceries.

Smj

[Smj]

One more thing, I'm all for some increases for the sport fisherman, and if understand correctly there are increases for the sportie being discussed. We certainly shouldn't be the only ones though.

Smj

[GutshotApe]

Hogtide - There have been other ideas floated for a guide tax or license fee increase on guides. That's not what I'm talking about.

The $10/daily surcharge would be a tax on dudes - people already willing and able to pay around $200/day for a seat in a guided boat (guide fee, tip, incidentals, etc). Another 5% isn't going to break any of 'em and wouldn't be enough to make very many decide not to hire the guide and take in the opera instead. They come to Oregon to catch fish and should pay for the privilege. Is the current $8 one-day license enough when the fish they catch cost Oregonians much more than that to provide?

It seems like it would be a fair tax in that many if not most guide clients are non-residents. They don't pay a sales tax or property tax in Oregon so they aren't paying their fair share to support the hatcheries and other facilities they use. And, because they are guided, resident or tourist, they catch a lot more fish per capita than unguided fishermen.

What guides are selling is access to and expertise in catching public resources. It only seems fair that those who can pay in order to become "expert anglers for-a-day" could afford to chip in a measly $10 to ensure there are fish for them to catch. I'd feel a lot better about seeing 200 guide boats with 2 to 4 dudes per boat on the Rogue bay - so many that I don't fish there anymore - if I knew they were paying their fair share.

[Smj]

I agree with that idea too gutshot.

I'ts been soo long I don't even know, A one day license is the same for a limit of trout as for a limit of salmon/steelhead?? That is outragous.

Smj

[Straydog]

If I am not mistaken, Oregon's non resident fees are noticably lower than neighboring states in all categories of fishing and hunting fees. I have not kept track so this may no longer be true.

No one answered my question asking how much the guides license fee is these days but my thinking was that if it were more, it may eliminate those that do it as a "side job" or somewhat of a hobby guide.

On the the other hand, it may just increase the number that do it 'underground'.... :whazzup:

[HOGTIDE]

I believe, and of course, I might be wrong, that a tax on guides would go into the state's general fund, just like your fishin' license fees. For the sake of a nonsensicle arguement, taxing 15 Trailblazers truly would send 'more' cash into the general kitty allowing a larger portion to be dispersed to fisheries and putting more fish in your boat. :smile:

And, for the record, I don't smoke and I 'do' think hiking the cigarette tax is a cheap shot at a minority group that has no chance in heck at voting it down.

[HOGTIDE]

Gutshot - Your explanation of taxing the dudes (we call 'em "Sports") actually sounds reasonable. I guess it would be akin to a motel/ hotel tax which is levied on tourists.

[GutshotApe]

Hogtide - If a surcharge on guided anglers (a dudetax? ) were imposed, the legislature could earmark revenue from it to go to a specific hatchery or set of hatcheries or whatever. They write the rules on funding. Your license and tag fees do not go to the general fund - they go directly to ODFW and represent "other funds" or about 40% of the total odfw budget. Other funds are the only discretionary funds odfw has.

FYI - State General funds (about 8 to 10% of total) and Federal funds (the rest or about 50% of total) are earmarked for specific uses and can't be shifted).

[ 11-24-2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]