Klamath (Trinity)River fish kill

The return of chinook to the hatchery at Iron Gate dam is the third highest on record. The majority of the fish killed were from the Trinity system. How does Upper Basin water use effect the Trinity? Why doesn't California fix THEIR problems. Was this in the Oregroneion?

[GutshotApe]

Keta - Haven't seen anything about run size at Iron Gate (and it doesn't surprise me) but the Oregonian did have a fairly balanced & accurate article about 2 weeks ago. Since then their coverage has been less well balanced. The Eugene R-G ran an editorial last tuesday blaming the upper basin irrigators for the lower river fishkill, didn't mention the Trinity diversion, etc.

[Straydog]

That's good news for the Klamath fish!

:smile:

[Day Late Fishen]

The next balanced article the Oregoanian publishes will be the first balanced article they've published.
Front page : FISH KILL !!

Farmers fault Farmers fault Farmers fault

Back section : And lowly scientist say

Why do they even bother with any science anyway they should just ask Tre Arrow what happened

They can't find Tre Arrow

Let's hear something from those that were linching the farmers here a week or so ago.

[ 11-18-2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Day Late Fishen]

"Oregoanian ! That rags not fit for fishwrap !"

[crabbait]

kindanew - That is what is known as an inflamatory post, ie, meant only to make someone angry. Don't like the Oregonian? Don't buy it. Send a letter to the editor. Do something else positive .

Fair warning.

[Master Baiter]

This is not a CA v. OR thing!

The fish died below the confluence of two rivers, it just so happens that the majority of the fish migrating at THAT time were bound for the Trinity. It just as easily could have been a Klamath, Scott, or Salmon River stock, just a matter of coincidental timing.

Both irrigation (Klamath, Trinity) operations are a major problem for the ENIRE basin! They are BOTH FEDERALLY OPERATED PROJECTS! The State of CA has NO SAY in how those projects are operated.

MB

MB,
It is a CA v OR thing. California politicians and officials condemn the Upper Basin and ignore the Trinity. I am sure that all sides kill fish but why blindly blame just one group?

I don't understand why the Trinity River fish got hit harder than Klamath River fish. I think that they might have died in the lower Trinity and drifted down river (just a guess) to the Klamath.

The Upper Basin gets all of the blame (and spankings) and the Sacramento Valley gets 90% of the cold Trinity River water. If you have the time, come up to KF mid summer and I'll show you how poor the water is in Klamath Lake (and possably go fishing in the upper dranage creeks or Agency Lake). Before the dams Link river often turned to a trickle by mid summer and the only water in the Upper Klamath came from springs and cool creeks down river from Keno (Jennie Creek goes into the Rogue Drainage now). 70 or higher water isn't good for salmon.

[GutshotApe]

MB - So WHY did the 33,000 salmon keg up below the confluence instead of proceeding upstream in the Trinity River? And, it they had wanted to go up the Salmon, Scott or Shasta, would conditions been any better there?

The problem is the enviros and the media are blaming this fish kill on Klamath Falls-area irrigation. They are ignoring the timing of the upper basin withdrawals relative to the fishkill and don't seem to want to discuss Trinity River and other CA tributary withdrawals & diversions.

If not for releases of stored water from the upper basin (far in excess of pre-project levels), wouldn't the lower river die-off have been even worse? Why don't we hear about this fact?

The Klamath basin problems are complex. We are getting simplistic explanations & excuses.

[Master Baiter]

Keta, GSA,

I do not need to actually see the river, I work in the river business and know exactly what you are saying. The problem goes back a decades with the Federal government making too many promises to too many people that it could not possibly keep. The PROBLEM is that the basin is over-allocted!

The politicians are just that, POLITICIANS! (Dem V. Rep) They will always point their finger at the otherside to make themselves look good. The reason our state is so messed up is the beacuse all the resources are in the North and the majority of the population is in the south and they are oblivious to the world outside of their urban utopia that is supported by our suffering.

Not saying whos right or wrong, but this polarization between State boundaries amongst us pawns is not useful. It just lends fuel to the politicians fire. I just hate the animosity that exists when I come to visit your beautiful state!

I like exchanging fishing info with everyone so I will not belabor this anymore.

Sorry and Thank You,

MB

[ 11-19-2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Master Baiter ]

MB,
Let's do it for the fish. :smile: Politicians and bureaucrats are scum. So are the eco-lawyers that use lies and BS for their own profit.

I still feel that Klamath Lake water in the summer shouldn't go down river, more should go into Tule Lake like it did pre project. Row crops shouldn't be grown on the refuge (hay and grain are bird feed). the water from Klamath Lake is too warm for salmon and it's not "natural". It would probably flood my place if we stoped all of the water though, I am only about 4' above Lake Euwana level.

Some of us "Native Oregonians" :shocked: have lived in California :shocked: and understand that being a "Californian" doesn't have anything to do with where one was born :shocked: . The Tule Lake area is also California.

[ 11-19-2002, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

I was going to stay out of this but.......

One thing not beig mentioned is the fact that the water users of the Central Valley have succesfully sued (no, that ploy is not restricted to the Enviros) and got a court injunction that says the amount of water going to the people will not be messed with!

To me, for the short term, it makes little sense to go after water the Feds say will not be given rather than go after water that to some degree is still negotiable.

Further, the fish did not go up the tribs and die because they could not get up to the tribs as I understand it.... they died below the confluence because of the lack of sufficient and water to get up river. Timinig is why they turned out to be Trinity fish.

Long before the "we can do it better mentality" of the white anglos came into the picture these fish evolved by spreading out the runs to accomodate different natural conditions..... low water, warm water, big water, later water, and on and on.

If the water indeed did not run before the dams were put on the Klamath, I have to assume the dams on the Tribs contribute to the amount of water available today as well.

The water this year, with out the benefit of any of the Klamath water that was given to fish last year, was 25% lower than last year, a drought year as well. We did not have a fish kill of this magnitude last year. There has not been a fish kill of this magnitude recorded ever.

Since the Feds. say we can not alter the water allocation in the Central Valley, it only makes sense the Klamath Basin would be targeted. Especially since it was the Klamath water (right or wrong) that was adjusted in the past.

I also think it interesting that many want to say the Klamath water was no good and would not have helped fish yet the very first reaction of the BOR was to up the flow from the Klamath Basin in an effort to move these fish up river. The same darned warm, dirty and crappy water these fish have survived in since the first basin farmers were invited in to foul it.

We can point fingers and place blame all we want. The undisputed facts are that fish need water. These fish evolved on the entire Klamath system before Anglo's decided they could better manitputlate the system to our benefit. These fish evolved up the Klamath without dams. These fish evolved up the Trinity and others with out dams.

Only when the dams came in and the over allocation of water, along with over harvest and other factors did the fish start having problems.

Over harvest has been removed from the mix, over allocation of water has not. I worked the No. Cal. and So. Oregon coast in the late 70's, early 80's selling sporting goods. I knew the people that lost their charter boats to lack of fish and fishing. I knew the people who's shops had to close due to lack of fish. I knew people that moved out of the area for other work due to lack of fish. I adjusted my own life to live with fewer dollars due to lack of fish.

The fishing industry has given and given and given with few headlines, no media events at the docks like the headgates and no folks in boats parading for National attention or passing dead fish from hand to hand on mainstreet Smalltown. We, as can be evidenced from the people on this site, are an industry of independant business people supported by independant fishermen that for the most part just want to be left alone to fish and/or make a living in the fishing industry. You didn't see the Federal folks shelling out millions to the fishing industry when our businesses went south.

Water taken from fish for the benefit of subsidised farming or washing cars or watering suburban lawns or any other wasteful reason is wrong.

[ 11-19-2002, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

MB,
Before irrigation and dams changed the river flow did the Klamath have a sand bar at its mouth blocking access to the river until the fall rains?

Every year the inflow to the lake by mid summer is drasticly less than the outflow down Link River (not irrigation water). There was a basalt dam at the outlet to Kalmath Lake that stoped water from going down Link River when the lake got below this natural dam. A channel was blasted through this dam when the Irrigation dam was built alowing the lake to be drawn down lower than it ever got before the project (irrigation water is taken out above the basalt dam).

Dog,
The Upper Basin water hasn't been high quality for thousands of years, it is a late stage eutropic lake with a high natural nutrent load, bird waste and volcanic minerals, and some ag runnoff (mostly from cow manure). It is worse than it was 100 years ago but take a look at what the Williamson looks like up river of Spring Creek, YUCK!

[ 11-19-2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]