clackmouth

[Bill Monroe]

I heard indirectly the gill netters had a couple of whopping nights for coho Wednesday and Thursday (or whenever they netted).
Anyone seen anything at the mouth of the Clackamas today (Saturday)? I'll probably try it for a bit in the morning anyway...
thanks

Originally posted by Bill Monroe:
I heard indirectly the gill netters had a couple of whopping nights for coho Wednesday and Thursday (or whenever they netted).

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">wow I'm so excited for them..... Excuse the sarcasm Bill it isn't directed towards you. I just have a real problem with these guys. Wonder how many wild fish were killed :depressed:

[O'City Fisherman]

Bill let me know when you are going to be down there. I was also thinking of trying down there. Are you going to float it or bank it? I am still on the bank so if you go let me know.

Vinneyx4@aol.com

Me too Shane. Rat B...terds.

Ban ALL Nets Everywhere!

Hope you catch some fish Bill and everyone.

[ 10-05-2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: ****** ]

[Wright Angle]

I heard at work today of one gillnet boat putting back 31 dead steelhead in one night..

[Hogmaster]

Bill -

Wasn't out today, but will be in the morning. Maybe I'll see ya there!

Hope a few got through the nets...

Originally posted by Wright Angle:
I heard at work today of one gillnet boat putting back 31 dead steelhead in one night..

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">These guys are vermin! They were given specific guidelines for the handling of wild steelhead and coho so they would be released unharmed! Do you think they care? NO It's all about money for them and nothing else. Hey ****** remember you telling me about the big native steelhead you caught near Bonneville a few years ago? I'll be willing to bet you were extra cautious with it as you released were'nt you? I've taken extra special precautions when releasing a wild fish many times. Most if not all the good people here on ifish are conscienctious sports anglers and take care of the wild fish they hook and release because we care about our sport! Not these commercial gill netters though. What an utter disregard for the resource

[ 10-05-2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Shane S ]

[crabbait]

Before we get completely worked up lets remember we are talking about a report from a guy who heard from a guy that there were 31 dead steelhead released. Not exactly what I would call a reliable news source.

What it will take to get a ballot initiative passed banning freshwater gillnets are facts and hard work.

[Bill Monroe]

Hey...I wasn't trying to get everyone worked up...just figured if they were doing that well there must be a surge of new fish moving in...I'm going to be on the bank for an hour or two...have plenty of honey dos, but honey is doing sleep in for a while and I get the hall pass...
As for the netters, I don't believe any "I-heard" reports and neither should anyone else. Hard to believe there are any leftover steelhead out there, but could be a few...and the wild fish they kill have already been worked into the equations.
You guys should wake up and smell the roses. Without commercial fishing, yes, INCLUDING the tribes, the feds would waste very little time pulling Mitchell funds out from under the hatcheries...c'mon...
Anyhow, if you see me down there come say hello...I'll join the crowd on the blacktop point for a while and may hike up to first riffle if I see anyone up there...it's changed a good bit, though, and the fish seem to scoot through pretty fast. Last year there were a lot of fish caught from the Clackamette point, but a lot of shoeless Jethros were doing the casting....
thanks

You are right Crab this is only heresay at this point. However last year when this tangle tooth net trial started the wild fish were supposed to be resucsitated before release. Well known Oregon guide Bob Toman was invited along on one of the boats as an observer. What he observed was the mishandling of wild steelhead with fish not given proper time to recover before being released and this of course added up to dead wild fish. I'm not real sure if the tangle tooth nets are being used this fall so maybe Bill Monroe could answer that. I'm not buying for a minute though Bill that the lower Columbia netters are doing us a favor by being there! You are right about the Mitchell act and tribal gill netting. The fact is unless the government buys out there treaty rights they will always be able to net the upper river.
There are plenty of facts out there but unfortunately a lack of funds to start an initative campaign and with the Sizemore fiasco people are distrustful of the initiative process.
Please pardon my zeal on this subject but I feel wild endangered salmon and steelhead are a precious resource and once they are gone they are gone! and that would be a shame :depressed:

[ 10-05-2002, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Shane S ]

[bigshark]

Bill

I'm not as knowledgable as most on the board and can't get a handle on this hatchery topic.
It seems that you have concluded that hatcheries are needed. I felt this way as well until a boardmember named *** Clerk suggested I look at a few studies that suggest they are not the answer to long term
protection of the resource. I have to admit that I was surprised at how I backed away from what I felt intuitively was correct. Now I have to believe that some are good and some are bad. Whats your take on this subject? I don't want to keep you up tonight as that silver is counting on you being there early tomarrow. If you would however give us your thoughts on this matter I'm sure the members would like to hear them. In case you are unaware of it, this topic is a bearcat on this BB as some are very "firm" in their opinions. It's not an easy topic to be totally objective about, as in my case I'm not worried about the fish as much as the people in the areas that depend on those hatcheries. In the case of nets, I can't find any empirical evidence that netting does anything but reduce the long term health of the fisheries.
Am I missing some good data? Anyway, get some sleep and nail that fish in the morning.

[ 10-05-2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

[Bill Monroe]

Well, that was about a bust, but at least I made a few casts...Pretty slow, although I was a little late getting there...few guys around...hadn't even seen any roll.

Bigshark, I'm with you on the some are...actually, I think mostare doing pretty well, especially now that they're working to transition hatcheries closer individual basin identities. The biggest thing hatcheries do is keep us anglers in the game...even those who detest the nets. In fact, we probably share a greater appreciation of wild fish because of the hatcheries and the chance to catch and keep some now and then.

One of these days if I get brave enough, I may post more, but time is pretty tight this part of the year.

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Bigshark

Since Mr. Monroe is very busy I will be happy to supply you with what has historically been Bill’s thoughts on the Salmon issue.

Mr. Monroe basically believes that the timber industry is to blame for our problems with our native runs of salmon. He believes that the increase in water temperature is what has done in our fish. He also believes that although hatcheries have done bad in the past he believes that they are the technological fix that can bring us the fish needed for commercial fishing? He can thus be described as a “Hatchery Apologist” :depressed: . Although I have followed his writings for a while I do not believe him to be a lost cause. Recently, in an article regarding Diamond Lake, he admitted that hatchery fish were significantly removed from their wild origins and were basically so stupid they were eating rocks they thought were food. In another instance I heard (true hear say) when he was asked to support striper fishermen’s contention that stripers did not impact salmonid smolts he said he could not because he used trout colored lures to fish for stripers in the estuaries and he logically could not say they did not eat juvenal Coho. :smile:

Mr. Monroe, like most people of his generation and schooling are very reluctant to admit that what was to be the cure all of societies problems with salmon and their habitat may have actually contributed to the loss of many a native run. (You see Mr. Monroe they did not cover everything at OSU…)

(Lets see if he can make time now to respond? If that does not work I will post Mr. Monroe’s Bigfoot experiences :grin: :grin: )

*** Clerk

Hatcheries are necessary because of the dwindling wild fish runs. I do believe that they could be run better though and hope that with the threatened closures on the north coast that maybe hatchery practices will improve. Keep your fingers crossed that they will.
I will never, ever be convinced that a commercial fishery on the lower Columbia is beneficial to sports anglers. Sorry but the facts just don't add up.
Remember the steelhead initiative in 1974? Who do you think was the main opposition to it's passage? Yep you guessed it! The Columbia gill netters that's who. These guys do not care about wild fish. They care about making money and that's it.

[Hogmaster]

*** Clerk -

I am somewhat offended here. Bill makes a post about fishing at the Clack mouth and now it has evolved to you interpeting his views on hatcheries.

Why can't Bill make a post like anyone else here and let it be at that?

Sure he is influential by his writing. But on ifish he is trying to do nothing more or less than most of us. He neither forced an opinion nor made comments until he was attacked off the topic of his thread.

Your interpetation of his views may or may not be accurate. But that was not what his post was about. You have made references to

like most people of his generation and schooling

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">. Talk about sweeping generalizations!

If you want to run a different thread feel free, but when an ifisher makes an honest attempt to just make a post about an area they want to fish, please hold your comments to the theme of the thread. It will make the ifish board a much better place to hang. Thank you very much.

[ 10-07-2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

[Hawaiian Time]

I'm with Hogmaster on this one. I took what Bill commented on as giving us the heads up that some fish should be coming up river. Thanks Bill. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Hogmaster

I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else. The comments I provided were designed to elicit a response from Mr. Monroe. I, like many people here and elsewhere are interested in Mr. Monroe’s views. Determining the basis for his beliefs is key to understanding how to influence his reporting in the future. :whazzup:

If he wanted to be just like everyone else he should have chosen a nickname and not used his real name with the relative celebrity his real name has. :whazzup:

The “like most people of his generation and schooling” is from a private e-mail conversation between Mr. Monroe and myself and was meant as a jab at his dislike of the Internet. It was not designed to impugn another’s integrity

Perhaps you can think of a way to persuade Mr. Monroe to answer Bigsharks questions? :whazzup:

[Hogmaster]

*** Clerk -

Bill has the right to choose his moniker. And sure, it might elicit more responses than another. But he still puts pants on "one leg at a time" Celebrity or not, he is, or should be, entitled to make innocent posts about fishing in my humble view.

But regardless, it just doesn't seem right to me that anyone takes the theme of a thread and takes liberties to turn it to a different agenda.

If you want to get his views on Big Shark's questions (which I also feel don't fit in the topic Bill posted) then do it on a different thread. Why does Bill have to answer, by the way? That is part of what bothers me the most. The inquisition ended several hundred years ago, I thought.

And your reference to a private email message to make a statement that appears as it's own form of bigotry does not fit any more than someone who is young being called "snotnose".

My comments do not fit on this thread either, so I am done on that.

On another note, the fishing in the Willamette below the mouth was for zippo on Sunday. Loaded the SS Hog Heaven with 5 fishermen and all we did was tell each other stories. Didn't rain or blow on us though so it was an OK morning...

[ 10-07-2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

[fishisabonus]

Bill,

You should know that you cannot mention the words "gill net". You are bound to get a reaction out of people.

[garyk]

Shane, out of curiosity and nothing else, since you been mentioning an initiative to ban gillnets, were you involved in the Steelheaders efforts (circa 1992) to do this? Just wondering. (I've still got a 'Ban Gill Nets' badge on one of my vests, a souvenier of that campaign.)

Originally posted by garyk:
Shane, out of curiosity and nothing else, since you been mentioning an initiative to ban gillnets, were you involved in the Steelheaders efforts (circa 1992) to do this? Just wondering. (I've still got a 'Ban Gill Nets' badge on one of my vests, a souvenier of that campaign.)

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">No Gary I was not at that time involved with steelheaders during that period of time. Unfortunate that that measure did not pass. In 1974 we had the backing of Governor Tom McCall and that made the difference.

[Straydog]

Hey Bill!

Boy, I can relate to the time thing this time of year. It is tough for us sporting goods peddlers too!

There are deer seasons, elk seasons, waterfowl seasons, upland game seasons, fall Salmon, Steelhead, bass and trout!!!

And of course, a guy needs to work now and then too!! :grin:

Seriously, your right, this time of year is like the Christmas season for most industries and I can imagine trying to keep up reporting on it must be a nightmare too!

Hey, when you get a little breathing room, it seems some folks on here are interested in your views on hatcheries. Would you mind letting us know when you get a chance? A person like you gets the opportunity to see and hear a lot of different ideas and some of us would like to know what you have gleaned from all of the exposure I am sure you get to this subject.

Take care and don't have too much fun but don't work too hard either!!

Dog

(***, we all have our own style for asking for info..... you might consider reviewing yours and seeing if it can be made more clear and palatable.... )

[Bill Monroe]

GILL NETS!!!!!!

There, do I have everyone's attention?
Jeez, I leave you guys alone for a day and a half and I don't even need to respond to my own post anymore...too bad there weren't more of you there Sunday morning. Might at least have hooked one fish to talk about.

Briefly (well, ok, so not too briefly)....

First, anyone who calls another guy "Mr." clearly hasn't taken much time to either contact the person or find out very much about him or her other than whatever blinded agenda develops in his own mind...*** Clerk...please feel free to call any time...221-8231 or 888-222-8231 if you're Long Distance...

I hate being called Mister...

Next, and more important, I don't mind at all jibes, arguments, debate or anything you might send my way. It comes with the turf. I don't consider myself a celebrity, just someone else with a rod who may have a little more access to the public than others. Feel free to cut loose (which doesn't seem to be a huge problem here).

I use trout-colored lures for stripers because that's often what stripers like, especially in the spring. Stripers and salmon and steelhead survived together for many years on the Umpqua. I wrote then and still believe that if stripers like steelhead smolts in the spring, the state should be growing more steelhead smolts. Stripers are great fish given a bad rap.
By the way, most of their diet is stuff other than salmon and steelhead...crabs, eels, sand worms, occasional ducklings, etc.

Forest health has long been a salmon killer...it's documented...and it's not the only salmon killer...agriculture, runoff from asphalt, industry, etc...are just a few others...the biggest problem with forestry is not runoff, but temperature degradation.
Hatcheries are part of the fix, not THE fix. I'm a supporter, not an apologist. There are some problems, but they're being corrected.
Wild fish need cold spawning water and the percentage of historical habitat is a fraction of what it was historically. This is especially true of steelhead and coho streams, the tiny feeders that are their niche. And it's why the chinook runs still flourish ... there are better conditions in the larger rivers nature has created for the larger fish.

I can't remember the rest, but that's close to what I think you asked for...

Oh yeah, hatcheries keep us catching fish, eating, the fishing economy bubbling, and especially capture the attention of people we elect. In other words, they keep the public's focus on wild fish, too, and their multiple problems. A tule may be pretty ugly on the end of your line in the Columbia, but it's pretty important to a Canadian commercial or offshore sport fisherman...which then becomes important when we ask them to lay off our spring chinook in the same areas in exchange for raising and releasing more tules for them...salmon management is a cobweb of intricate, biological and political pieces...sometimes it's a house of cards and you guys are left holding the hands.

I gotta go to work...

*** Clerk, please either call me or someone who knows me better before you make your next cast in my name

(although technically, I suppose this is classified as an official rise-to-the-bait)

Thanks all,
Bill

PS I'm still convinced there are fish out there still coming to the Clack.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Man I thought this was going to be a fishing report. Instead it is impale Bill Monroe. Shezzz folks, can't somebody relay information and not be publically executed?

***, sorry dude, your comments here are unwarrented and unneeded. Handle your problem via e-mail. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

Just amazing that a supposed fish report turns into a no hatchery and no gill net thread. :whazzup: Give it a rest or put it in an actual related thread. Thanks.

Thanks for the report Bill. I was wondering if more coho were on the way. Eagle Creek just does not have enough water to support the run yet. Come on Rain, we need ya. :smile:

[Hogmaster]

Thanks, Bill for your input.

But your PS is driving me crazy! I had just convinced myself not to bother launching early or late this week as it would be a waste of time!

What to do, what to do.....

[mallard0311]

Hey guys, Before this was even brought up I could tell from past article's Bill Monroe was taking heat and defending himself. A lot of people don't even know Bill, yet take shots at him. I'm sure a lot of you enjoyed his deer hunting story in the Oregonian. He admitted his mistake in public, in his column. That takes balls. I have known Bill for over twenty years and the fishing community owes him thanks for his envolvement with numerous fishing and hunting tips, ethics as well as social events and keeps us up on political decision making events in which he attends. Put yourself in his place and write your views in public for everyone to scruntinize. I have disagreed with him over the years and I have learned from him and kept up to date on the outdoors, thanks to his columns and info. No, I am not a close friend, buddie or whatever your mind thinks. He is just a casual, see at events type friend. Give Bill a break!

[Tanner]

Hey Jen,
You should create a forum just for these gillnetting/Hatchery vs Wild discussions.

I understand that these are crucial topics to us fisherman and I get involved as much as possible with helping to find solutions. (writing letters and going to meetings when possible). But I can do a search on some of these topics and find posts from this point to the beginning of this board that say the same things, OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I know, If I don't like it I shouldn't read it.

I guess it just shows how passionate some people can be about these topics.

Carry on.

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Thank you Bill

Your response was closer to a take down than a rise... A good solid bite.
(I think it was the Bigfoot threat) :grin:

Thank you for the offer to call you however we have spoken before via phone regarding non-hatchery issues and I find electronic conversations more precise.

I am glad I was correct regarding the timber / temperature degradation. I knew you thought it was key :smile:

If you continue to step up and address the difficult issues both here and elsewhere I will never need to cast in your name. I do not always agree with you but it is important that you be willing to share your opinions.

Straydog

Yes Straydog, we all have our own styles. After reading your approach I nearly went into a sugar coma

My approach, although not as PC, never fails to work


[ 10-08-2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: *** Clerk ]

[blackdog]

*** Clerk wrote:

Thank you for the offer to call you however we have spoken before via phone regarding non-hatchery issues and I find electronic conversations more precise.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Huh? :whazzup: Electronic conversations more precise? Wow. That's interesting.

[Bill Monroe]

Bigfoot is a huge hoax...I heard an owl...it scared the bejeezus out of me, though, until I found out later what it was...no question about hiding in the truck for a while with the doors locked...

***...The only thing precise about electronic conversations is the ability to hide behind them anonymously...

There's a not-so-nice word for that, too....

If not to me, you won't ever speak for me.

Everyone else...the Clackamas bite is definitely off, according to Gary Waterhouse, who usually keeps pretty close track on his backyard and cancelled a Sunday drift...he said (as has been itemized on ifish) the fish got into Eagle Creek on the last rain and no new ones seem to be around...

[Dan Christopher]

i guess some people have to hide there identity on the p.c because all they do is like to start fights and call names.

some people just drive me nuts [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

they think they are the all knowing,
all powerfull..and that there opinion is the only right one because they have all these (one sided) case studies and that makes them right an no one else. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

so much more i would like to say but i will just bite my toung im sure someone will put some words in my mouth now sense they know all.

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Madwizard

Boy, I am glad you’re not talking bout me. :grin:

I would hate to be who you are yelling at… :shocked:

[Pilar]

Bill, time your visit to the mouth of the Clack to a rising tide. Yes we have tides clear up to the falls in OC. My observations last year were fish swimming by, even banging into my waders but not biting. Then like magic as the water rose with the tide and got close to the high mark the fish started rolling and jumping and the bite turned on.

I bet that still goes on right now. What do you think? The best bite was on a high that coincided with daybreak on a weekday.

Good luck.

[Bill Monroe]

I know there is a tidal influence up there and that's a good idea...hadn't thought beyond getting a few casts in on a Sunday before the department of war woke up...I'll give it a shot...It's probably a good bit after the Portland high? Thanks

[Dan Christopher]

not yelling,,
just stating a fact.

[Straydog]

***,

Glad to hear treating one as you would like to be treated is today considered PC.

In the "good ol days", it was merely the Golden
Rule.

[Hogmaster]

Bill -

I definitely noticed when I was banging them a bit over a week ago it was on the high slack tides. Just seemed to hit them right before or after work then.

But your pondering made me curious so I looked up the river level chart for the Willamette below the falls (courtesy of The Guides Forecast) to find what has been happening on the Willy. This time of year it is easy to see the tidal influence - Over 3 feet for those of you who don't think there is an effect!
Willamette river flows

Then I looked up the tide predictions for Portland harbor based on this neat URL that Husker posted. Look up Columbia River in Oregon and then there is a listing for the Willamette at Portland.
Tide forecasts

If you look at both (I have two monitors) it looks as though the tide swings are showing the tide changing earlier in OC than the harbor. Almost an hour or so.

Means a high near 8:30 or 9 tomorrow morning. Dang I hate work!

[will_e_fish]

Bill, Pilar, Hogmaster and all you other positive anglers out there. Thanks for sharing info, reports,giving updates, and evrything you do to help the ifish board staying on the positive aspects of treating each other with respect.

We all need to rember not to point fingers, but to hold out the hand. Try be a part of the solution not the polution. Helping another angler in their growth and pursuit of the sport very noble act. It desevers kudos and kind words. I am not saying everything needs to be sickening sweet with atta boys and good job. Honesty is great and opinions are welcomed. Assumptions are well you know what is said of them.

I have tried plunking the tides with springers at the clack/willamete and oh at least 2 to 3 fish were caught all day for 200 of my closest friends. High tide, low tide and slack tides sometimes the bite is not there even though the fish are. I will try it soon from the boat to see if it gets any better me than bankfishing there.

[Uncle Bob]

Bill,

...shoeless Jethros...
I'll have to remember that one. :grin:

UB

[fishnxtc]

Chacal,
The only problem you have staying on the water is your old boot for a fishing buddy :tongue: :grin: :grin: :grin: . I'm outta work after November 9th have your albatross fishing partner*(Your father, aka Thomas, aka clown mouth)give me a call I show you were to fish in the Channel for some keeper sturgeon. :shocked:

[Mrdorkfish]

Bill, shoeless Jethros ?? :whazzup: I thought they were all down at PC?? :tongue: :tongue: :grin:

Stop..your killing me !! :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Chacal]

I would just like to ditto Willy's comment.

I can in large part thank this board for keeping me out of the water and increasing my chances to catch more than salad.

Because of people like Pilar, Hogmaster and others (garyk, ****** and crabbait) when I go out I at least feel like I have a chance at catching something (Oh, and Bill Monroe Rocks too).

Thanks to you all for putting up with stupid questions and your tolerance for the new fisherman.

It is getting crowded out there, but if you show courtesy it pays dividends.

Thanks again.

Chacal.

Chacal, answered your private message about curing Sturgeon.

Rick