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Old 01-15-2011, 01:25 PM   #1
boat tater
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Default Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Thought some might be interested in this, soon coming to a river near you.




Call on ODFW to End Hatchery Stockings on the Sandy River


The only hope for a recovery of Sandy River salmon and steelhead is the termination of its hatchery program



Runs of salmon and steelhead on the Sandy are currently 3-10% of their historic abundance, and continuing to decline year after year. Much of this decline can be linked to an unaccountable hatchery program.

The ODFW has known for decades that hatchery fish reduce the fitness and long term abundance of wild fish, yet they continue to cater to consumptive users of the resource and have allowed this demand to eclipse their conservation mission, under state law and their own rules. If future generations are to ever glimpse a wild spawning salmon, this must change.

Native Sandy river fall chinook, spring chinook, coho and winter steelhead are currently listed under the Endangered Species Act, and chum salmon have gone extinct.

In a recent Portland Tribune article, ODFW District Biologist Todd Alsbury said that reducing the Sandy River hatchery program is a "last resort." It is clear that the ODFW has no intention of actually protecting our endangered fish.

As a supporter of Oregon's native fish, please call on ODFW to terminate their harmful Sandy River hatchery program.



Tell ODFW you value wild fish

Click the link below:
NFS Action Alert Petition to ODFW




photo courtesy of Spencer Miles







Sincerely,

Native Fish Society
221 Molalla Ave., Suite 100
Oregon City, OR 97045
503-496-0807
admin@nativefishsociety.org
www.nativefishsociety.org



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Old 01-15-2011, 01:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

This group makes me laugh, talk about self serving.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

i have no idea the politics behind it and if it hurts our so called "wild" fish but posting this on ifish is pretty hairy cant wait to see the respones from a group majority of sportsfisherman/women. i think we all agree take all nets out of the water if you want returns of "wild" fish to bounce back. commercial and the darn tribes. my opinion and no need to go into details of why i feel that way we would just be beating a dead horse. kind of weird also you are an ifish member to a website that gives info on catching fish yet you want us to stop hatchery programs? baffles me another opinion take this elsewhere
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonk View Post
This group makes me laugh, talk about self serving.

Anglers opposing this organization make me cry because without this organization and the hard work of it's members the Sandy river would steelhead and salmon would be so close to extinct that it would be closed to angling entirely..

Every salmon and steelhead angler in the state of Oregon OWES this organization a debt of thanks even those anglers who hate it you are endebted to the Native fish society like it or not you would not be fishing if it were not for their tireless efforts. YOU OWE THEM!
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Not a surprise! I don't think it will happen. Make sure you vote on this one!
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob allen View Post
Anglers opposing this organization make me cry
No Rob. Anglers that don't agree with you make you cry.
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by riveraddict View Post
i have no idea the politics behind it and if it hurts our so called "wild" fish but posting this on ifish is pretty hairy cant wait to see the respones from a group majority of sportsfisherman/women. i think we all agree take all nets out of the water if you want returns of "wild" fish to bounce back. commercial and the darn tribes. my opinion and no need to go into details of why i feel that way we would just be beating a dead horse. kind of weird also you are an ifish member to a website that gives info on catching fish yet you want us to stop hatchery programs? baffles me another opinion take this elsewhere
I posted it not because I favor the move, quite the contrary. The information was posted because I thought everyone should be aware of what is going on and be concerned. I heard that the Governor has already received hundreds of support letters on this issue. Jim Myron who generated the mailing that was forwarded to me was one of Governor Kitzhabers fishery advisor's during his past administration.
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Thanks, Tater, for the update....
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

I'll fish the clack. I love to eat fish!!
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

this whole thread makes me smile.Just makes me wonder whos pulling whos chain. I have lived and fished the upper sandy salmon and zig zag rivers since the late 70s. have caught hundreds of steelhead but never caught a wild fish in the summer most of the wild run was caught in the late winter part of the run. Makes me wonder about all the time I volunteered cabling logs in the river for habit or fin clipping at gnat creek hatchery was for nothing. I could argue about those rivers for ever I practice catch and release. They took a dam out that wasn't hurting anybody. A dam where they could monitor the fish. But since it was cheaper to tear it down they did. Then they pat themselves on ther back look what we did for the fish. Sorry don't buy it. Its all and opinion I do respect the groups that protect the native fisheries but this is a debate that can go on and on
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob allen View Post
Anglers opposing this organization make me cry because without this organization and the hard work of it's members the Sandy river would steelhead and salmon would be so close to extinct that it would be closed to angling entirely..

Every salmon and steelhead angler in the state of Oregon OWES this organization a debt of thanks even those anglers who hate it you are endebted to the Native fish society like it or not you would not be fishing if it were not for their tireless efforts. YOU OWE THEM!
Here is a organization that solicites fisherman yet in its bylaws says for the PRESERVATION of wild fish!
For those folks thay may not understand this means NO FISHING!
Last year at the fishing film tour in Portland I asked one of oit high up members and he said "what is the difference between conservation and preservation?" I said "are you s serious?"
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Thanks for bringing this to our attention BT. Recently I questioned the "fact" that hatchery fish spawning in the stream destroys the native population. What I found using google was that all the info on it was provided by the native fish society so I asked for a link on this forum. What was given to me as "irrefutable proof" was a study that said when a hatchery summer run spawns with a native winter run there is no return, well duh. I do think that little hatchery dinks spawning in the wild dilutes the gene pool in a river with big natives but just find it strange that "facts" are so well known by the gurus here and are repeated so many times that they must be true. Bill
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Old 01-15-2011, 03:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Originally Posted by Salmonator View Post
No Rob. Anglers that don't agree with you make you cry.
Yup
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

not sure i should say what i want so i will just be nice and bite my fingers
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

It is also noteworthy that the Native Fish Society opposed ODFW research on Nehalem chinook and the limited wild coho harvests staying these populations could not sustain any harvest.
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Do Not let this happen! closing the hatcheries around here will do one thing--put more people out of work. You can show me all the bias studies you want and I think they are only for the benefit of that group. I doupt if they are going to talk about or use any studies that would lead you to believe otherwise. If we allow them to close one they will push to close them all guaranteed..

In Cali most of the hatcheries are already closed and have been for quite awhile and are there more" Wild Fish",,,I don't think so,, maybe a few more without there fins clipped but I think they are far from the original strain from many years ago.

All it has done in Cali is make it to the point that there are very few rivers where a person can keep a fish, those rivers are even loosing that opportunity due the the hatchery closings. Some private organizations are working to keep a few going. Down there I believe it is a situation of no funding as well as the other save the fish groups.

What's next,,,, I say Garbage also!
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob allen View Post
Anglers opposing this organization make me cry because without this organization and the hard work of it's members the Sandy river would steelhead and salmon would be so close to extinct that it would be closed to angling entirely..

Every salmon and steelhead angler in the state of Oregon OWES this organization a debt of thanks even those anglers who hate it you are endebted to the Native fish society like it or not you would not be fishing if it were not for their tireless efforts. YOU OWE THEM!

I owe them nothing. Cry. Whatever.
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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I owe them nothing. Cry. Whatever.

Ditto
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

All,

If you would like a scape goat for this, feel free to pin it on me. I wrote the letter that was sent to ODFW and Kitzhaber, and firmly stand behind everything I wrote.

That hatchery fish are incredibly harmful to wild populations is not some Native Fish Society conspiracy. Since the early 70s, literally hundreds of scientific studies have been done on the effects of hatchery fish on wild populations, and every study that I know of has shown that hatchery fish decrease the long term abundance of wild populations.

During this 40 year period, not one fishery biologist has ever found that hatchery fish help wild populations, but hundreds have found the exact opposite. The majority of these scientists are with organizations like ODFW, WDFW, NMFS (National Marine Fisheries Service), Oregon State University, University of Washington, etc… In other words, neutral organizations with no motive.

In fact, a study from a ODFW and NOAA biologists set to be published next month analyzed the effects of 89 hatchery programs from across the PNW over a 20 year period. The conclusion was that hatchery fish reduce the abundance of wild fish by up to 87%. In other words, if 75% of the spawning fish (as is the case with Spring Chinook on the Sandy) are of hatchery origin, the impacts are just the same as if you harvested 65.25% of the wild fish. On top of that, they found that hatchery programs are about 10x more damaging to wild fish that a hydroelectric dam.

You don't have to believe the science, but I would at least encourage you all to look into it.

If you look at where things are headed with the Sandy, it's not pretty. The wild winter steelhead run is currently at around 800 fish, and declining decade over decade. The steelhead hatchery program relies on wild broodstock fish, but if the steelhead run hits 350 fish, ODFW can no longer use these fish, imperiling the hatchery program. It's not too hard to look 10 years down the road and realize that a couple of bad ocean cycles could easily push the steelhead abundance to this level, at which point the hatchery program is kaput, the river shuts down to fishing entirely, and it's game over.

Witness what's going on in Puget Sound right now. Over the years, massive hatchery programs have nearly driven winter steelhead to extinction. The Stillaguamish once supported 80,000 fish, and is now down to 500. As a result, these Puget Sound fisheries that were once some of the best in the world have been shutdown for the past 2 winters.

Oregon is not immune from this fate. If the wild fish go, so goes everything.

It is my sincere hope that we can actually have a discussion on this issue - I think it deserves it.

My personal view is that the Sandy should be managed as a wild fishery, and the Clackamas can be managed for hatchery production. Because there's a dam on the Clack, the upper basin can be managed as a wild sanctuary to help keep abundance at a reasonable level.

I'm not necessarily opposed to even moving the Sandy hatchery plants over to the Clack. In my mind, that's a good outcome for fisherman and wild fish. You can still fish the Clack and catch and keep as many fish as you want, but the Sandy can be managed as a wild fishery in hopes of bringing back these one-of-a-kind fish.

Regards,
Spencer
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Forget about the Nehalem Chinook even tho it is obvious they can't take the over-harvest but no hatchery steelhead on the Sandy would make it as worthless as the Main Nehalem after they quit planting it with steelhead. It's a shame, what a waste of a great river. After all this time of no harvest it hasn't helped the wild run any more than highwater escapement on the river.
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Originally Posted by fishandcrawl View Post
Forget about the Nehalem Chinook even tho it is obvious they can't take the over-harvest but no hatchery steelhead on the Sandy would make it as worthless as the Main Nehalem after they quit planting it with steelhead. It's a shame, what a waste of a great river. After all this time of no harvest it hasn't helped the wild run any more than highwater escapement on the river.
Here's the waste I see in the Nehalem; This is the condition of many of the spawning tribs thanks to decades of clearcutting and unmaintained logging roads. All the sediment from the mudslides chokes the river and overheats it in summer. Ever wonder why it takes so long to clear after a storm?
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

I call for the end of the Native Fish Society.
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:48 PM   #24
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencermiles View Post
All,

If you would like a scape goat for this, feel free to pin it on me. I wrote the letter that was sent to ODFW and Kitzhaber, and firmly stand behind everything I wrote.

That hatchery fish are incredibly harmful to wild populations is not some Native Fish Society conspiracy. Since the early 70s, literally hundreds of scientific studies have been done on the effects of hatchery fish on wild populations, and every study that I know of has shown that hatchery fish decrease the long term abundance of wild populations.

During this 40 year period, not one fishery biologist has ever found that hatchery fish help wild populations, but hundreds have found the exact opposite. The majority of these scientists are with organizations like ODFW, WDFW, NMFS (National Marine Fisheries Service), Oregon State University, University of Washington, etc… In other words, neutral organizations with no motive.

In fact, a study from a ODFW and NOAA biologists set to be published next month analyzed the effects of 89 hatchery programs from across the PNW over a 20 year period. The conclusion was that hatchery fish reduce the abundance of wild fish by up to 87%. In other words, if 75% of the spawning fish (as is the case with Spring Chinook on the Sandy) are of hatchery origin, the impacts are just the same as if you harvested 65.25% of the wild fish. On top of that, they found that hatchery programs are about 10x more damaging to wild fish that a hydroelectric dam.

You don't have to believe the science, but I would at least encourage you all to look into it.

If you look at where things are headed with the Sandy, it's not pretty. The wild winter steelhead run is currently at around 800 fish, and declining decade over decade. The steelhead hatchery program relies on wild broodstock fish, but if the steelhead run hits 350 fish, ODFW can no longer use these fish, imperiling the hatchery program. It's not too hard to look 10 years down the road and realize that a couple of bad ocean cycles could easily push the steelhead abundance to this level, at which point the hatchery program is kaput, the river shuts down to fishing entirely, and it's game over.

Witness what's going on in Puget Sound right now. Over the years, massive hatchery programs have nearly driven winter steelhead to extinction. The Stillaguamish once supported 80,000 fish, and is now down to 500. As a result, these Puget Sound fisheries that were once some of the best in the world have been shutdown for the past 2 winters.

Oregon is not immune from this fate. If the wild fish go, so goes everything.

It is my sincere hope that we can actually have a discussion on this issue - I think it deserves it.

My personal view is that the Sandy should be managed as a wild fishery, and the Clackamas can be managed for hatchery production. Because there's a dam on the Clack, the upper basin can be managed as a wild sanctuary to help keep abundance at a reasonable level.

I'm not necessarily opposed to even moving the Sandy hatchery plants over to the Clack. In my mind, that's a good outcome for fisherman and wild fish. You can still fish the Clack and catch and keep as many fish as you want, but the Sandy can be managed as a wild fishery in hopes of bringing back these one-of-a-kind fish.

Regards,
Spencer
Do you fish the Sandy, or are you just going on what this group is say?
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Gill netting is incredibly harmfull to wild populations. are they going to have to stop also? There are many things that contribute to the declines, let's not blame it all on the hatcheries. How can you say CLOSING THE HATCHERIES is the ONLY HOPE???
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Remember our signature policy, folks. I'll be back in the morning to check. Any unsigned complaints will have to go the way of the delete button.

Please comply, OK?

Jen
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:54 PM   #27
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencermiles View Post
My personal view is that the Sandy should be managed as a wild fishery, and the Clackamas can be managed for hatchery production. Because there's a dam on the Clack, the upper basin can be managed as a wild sanctuary to help keep abundance at a reasonable level.
I heard a panel of fisheries biologists from multiple agencies discuss this idea at a Sandy River dam reliscencing meeting about 10 years ago. The bio's liked the idea, but said it would be hard to implement because of the restrictions in ESA. I think it might work well and would add that, despite a wild broodstock steelhead program on the Clack that takes wild fish out of the river, the count of wild steelhead in the upper Clack last year was the best in 30 years! The bio's are doing something right and I'd love to see more authority given to them to make these decisions. We'll never have what everybody wants (rivers with healthy, harvestable runs of wild fish) if we don't make some hard decisions and take some chances.

Let the Sandy go all-wild and double plants on the lower Clack? Not my decision, but it might be a practical solutuion. I'd support it if the regional bio's proposed it.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

i dont care for hatchery fish for starters,in no way does it help sustain the native fish but the majority of anglers especially around populated cities could care less as long as they get to put fish on a tag,its all about meat fishing..i dont understand the fascination with INFERIOR fish,they are cookie cutter fish tyhen get trucked up and down a river for people to catch them,its a joke.......with that ill just say i would personally like to see them keep the sandy all native and give them the Clackamas for theyre MEAT fishery.....i find that most people who complain about native fish are only worried about having empty slots on their tags or no dinner on the table.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencermiles View Post
All,
In fact, a study from a ODFW and NOAA biologists set to be published next month analyzed the effects of 89 hatchery programs from across the PNW over a 20 year period. The conclusion was that hatchery fish reduce the abundance of wild fish by up to 87%. In other words, if 75% of the spawning fish (as is the case with Spring Chinook on the Sandy) are of hatchery origin, the impacts are just the same as if you harvested 65.25% of the wild fish. On top of that, they found that hatchery programs are about 10x more damaging to wild fish that a hydroelectric dam.
Hatchery fish reduce wild fish abundance by 87% over what period of time in this unbiased study that someone will publish someday.

The Sandy in my youth used to close every year on opening day of trout season in April and open again September 1st because there was no summer steelhead run or spring Chinook run or at best a remnant Spring Chinook run to small to allow angling. Then in the early 70's summer steelhead were introduced and Spring Chinook were reintroduced. That reintroduction of hatchery Spring Chinook resulted in the wild run you feel the need to protect. When it comes to Sandy River spring Chinook it is very unlikely without hatcheries we would have a wild run. They are not native they are wild descendants of hatchery origin spawners.

Whatever Spring Chinook are in the Sandy today came into existence since the introduction of hatchery Spring Chinook in the 70's.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

the_dude - yes, I fish the Sandy. I don't think a more scenic river within 20 miles of an urban area exists on the planet. I would like the abundance of wild fish to be as nice as the scenery, however.

FieldStreamJ - You are absolutely correct, hatcheries are not the only problem. Gillnetting is an issue, angler induced mortality is an issue, predators are an issue, habitat is an issue, and on and on... That said, if you look at ODFW's Lower Columbia Recovery plan, they've identified hatcheries as the #1 threat to the recovery of these fish.

Spencer

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Old 01-15-2011, 04:11 PM   #31
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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...Let the Sandy go all-wild and double plants on the lower Clack? Not my decision, but it might be a practical solutuion. I'd support it if the regional bio's proposed it.
I'd go for that as well. I have long thought that the lower Clack should be managed as a hatchery river. I'll keep my opinions private concerning the Native Fish Society.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:26 PM   #32
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I heard a panel of fisheries biologists from multiple agencies discuss this idea at a Sandy River dam reliscencing meeting about 10 years ago. The bio's liked the idea, but said it would be hard to implement because of the restrictions in ESA. I think it might work well and would add that, despite a wild broodstock steelhead program on the Clack that takes wild fish out of the river, the count of wild steelhead in the upper Clack last year was the best in 30 years! The bio's are doing something right and I'd love to see more authority given to them to make these decisions. We'll never have what everybody wants (rivers with healthy, harvestable runs of wild fish) if we don't make some hard decisions and take some chances.

Let the Sandy go all-wild and double plants on the lower Clack? Not my decision, but it might be a practical solutuion. I'd support it if the regional bio's proposed it.
Since this experiment is going so well why don't we simply continue it until it provides a fishery that replaces the fishery loss created by the effort. Then we could consider it a success and branch out.

Could you provide the actual numbers of wild fish return rather than just saying it is the best return in 30 years. After all if the return has hovered around 10 and last year it was 11 that is not much to crow about. What percentage higher return is the upper claclamas experiencing when compared to other rivers where we have not tried this "experiment"?

What kind of fishery does the upper Clackamas provide with this best return in 30 years compared to the period before they removed hatchery production an estimated 20 or more years ago?
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

I think all of us here want to see wild fish thrive but if you eliminate the hatchery component you can forget about ever fishing the Sandy again. Although some studies have shown that hatchery fish are an impact to wild fish I think some of the comments here are exagerated. There is a reason why NOAA is allowing many of the current fish hatcheries to continue and that is because they pose little or no threat to the wild component.

RM

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Old 01-15-2011, 04:49 PM   #34
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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the_dude - yes, I fish the Sandy. I don't think a more scenic river within 20 miles of an urban area exists on the planet. I would like the abundance of wild fish to be as nice as the scenery, however.

FieldStreamJ - You are absolutely correct, hatcheries are not the only problem. Gillnetting is an issue, angler induced mortality is an issue, predators are an issue, habitat is an issue, and on and on... That said, if you look at ODFW's Lower Columbia Recovery plan, they've identified hatcheries as the #1 threat to the recovery of these fish.

Spencer ---the issue I have with this campaign.....You can't address only one part of the problem without addressing all parts of the problem if a true solution to the wild fish strain is really the goal.

The letter you wrote and the letter in the petition never addresses any of the other issues in question. If all the other information was included in these letters I could have a different opinion.

There are too many campaigns out there that only address a very small part of the problem. I know you have to start somewhere but lets include all pertenant information.

I quess when I read the petition it tries to lead me to believe closing the hatcheries would fix it all.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:06 PM   #35
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the_dude - yes, I fish the Sandy. I don't think a more scenic river within 20 miles of an urban area exists on the planet. I would like the abundance of wild fish to be as nice as the scenery, however.

FieldStreamJ - You are absolutely correct, hatcheries are not the only problem. Gillnetting is an issue, angler induced mortality is an issue, predators are an issue, habitat is an issue, and on and on... That said, if you look at ODFW's Lower Columbia Recovery plan, they've identified hatcheries as the #1 threat to the recovery of these fish.
This is what the executive summary of the Lower Columbia Recovery plan says quite different from what you indicated.

Executive Summary Section 6
Sandy
Overarching
Strategies
Tributary Habitat
• identify, prioritize, and protect
existing high quality/ functioning
habitat
• identify, prioritize, and restore existing
degraded habitat
• implement City of Portland’s HCP
Hydro
• addressed with PGE’s removal of Marmot and Little Sandy Dams
Hatchery
• reduce ChS stray rate due to Marmot Dam removal
• reduce stray rates to target levels by identifying source, making
program changes (reduce, eliminate, shift), and/or making operation changes
• determine need for reintroduction (ChF)
• mark all hatchery fish released
RME
• monitor harvest, hatchery and habitat impacts
• monitor wild populations
• address critical uncertainties
• adaptively manage based on new information
• understand wild populations’ status and hatchery influence prior to
making the limited hatchery or harvest changes within OR-WA regional control (ChF)

And here is a list of negative contributing factors by species and in the order of their effect as per the Executive Summary

Spring Chinook
Tributary Habitat
Estuary Habitat
Hydro
Harvest
Hatchery
Predation

Fall Chinook

Tributary Habitat
Estuary Habitat
Hydro
Harvest
Hatchery
Predation

Winter Steelhead

Tributary Habitat
Estuary Habitat
Hydro
Harvest
Hatchery
Predation

Late Fall Chinook

Tributary Habitat
Estuary Habitat
Hydro
Harvest
Hatchery
Predation

Coho

Tributary Habitat
Estuary Habitat
Hydro
Harvest
Hatchery
Predation
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:19 PM   #36
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Boat tater,nice post. all of those things are being worked on and I hear them discussed by many people from different orgs and agencies. None of them matter if the fish are over harvested......period. they dont even get to the river to use the restored habitat or spawn with the hatchery fish. Ed
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Boat tater -

I'm referring to Table 6-3. For spring chinook and winter steelhead the highest threat is from hatcheries. For Sandy river coho, hatcheries are not the highest threat, which seems somewhat suspicious as it is the highest threat for other listed coho populations.

There is no fall chinook hatchery program on the Sandy, which explains why the greater threat to those fish is from harvest.

Curious, who on here thinks that the Sandy fishes better now than it did 10 or 20 or 30 years ago?

All of our fisheries are slowly dwindling away, and in hopes and passing our sport down to future generations, I think we really need to figure out a way to recover our fish.

Yes, hatcheries aren't the only impact, but they are certainly one of the largest and more often or not, the largest limiting factor on wild populations.

Personally, I'm a steelhead fisherman, and steelhead on the sandy continue to collapse. The largest threat to these fish is an unaccountable hatchery program.

If you all have suggestions for other ways to help recover these fish, I'm all ears.

Spencer
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:33 PM   #38
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i dont care for hatchery fish for starters,in no way does it help sustain the native fish but the majority of anglers especially around populated cities could care less as long as they get to put fish on a tag,its all about meat fishing..i dont understand the fascination with INFERIOR fish,they are cookie cutter fish tyhen get trucked up and down a river for people to catch them,its a joke.......with that ill just say i would personally like to see them keep the sandy all native and give them the Clackamas for theyre MEAT fishery.....i find that most people who complain about native fish are only worried about having empty slots on their tags or no dinner on the table.
Dan-L
Sounds like you don't like hatchery fish or meat fishermen much. I also get the impression that you like catching native fish and would like to see the Sandy a native catch and release fishery?

Problem with fishing for natives to use your own words, "in no way does it help sustain the native fish" Many people would argue that harassing fish that you do not intend to harvest as they are in on route to spawning is irresponsible.

So...if you do away with hatcheries for the sake of saving wild fish, I would say just simply do away with ALL fishing period, and go watch them spawn like a lot of people would like to see happen anyway.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

I'm curious as to the size of the membership of the NFS? Seems like this org gets a lot of exposure but doesn't represent mainstream anglers.

The perception is that this is a very small group of fly fishers...would like that corrected if I'm wrong.

aw
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:43 PM   #40
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i dont care for hatchery fish for starters,in no way does it help sustain the native fish but the majority of anglers especially around populated cities could care less as long as they get to put fish on a tag,its all about meat fishing..i dont understand the fascination with INFERIOR fish,they are cookie cutter fish tyhen get trucked up and down a river for people to catch them,its a joke.......with that ill just say i would personally like to see them keep the sandy all native and give them the Clackamas for theyre MEAT fishery.....i find that most people who complain about native fish are only worried about having empty slots on their tags or no dinner on the table.
Dan-L
Sounds like you don't like hatchery fish or meat fishermen much. I also get the impression that you like catching native fish and would like to see the Sandy a native catch and release fishery?

Problem with fishing for natives to use your own words, "in no way does it HELP sustain the native fish" Many people would argue that harassing fish that you do not intend to harvest as they are in route to spawning is irresponsible.

So...if you do away with hatcheries for the sake of saving wild fish, I would say just simply do away with ALL fishing period, and go watch them spawn like a lot of people would like to see happen anyway.

I've caught my fish in my time, I can live with no more salmon fishing if the rest of you can. If you do away with hatcheries, just do away with ALL salmon fishing.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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If you all have suggestions for other ways to help recover these fish, I'm all ears.

Spencer
I really doubt your all ears unless I say what you want to hear but I`ll say it for the benefit of others. 30 years ago we had massive runs of fish, trout were even planted in the steelhead streams. What did we do different then? MASSIVE plants of fish. Those of us old enough to remember, long for those days again. The younger generation thinks that fishing is good at times, but want something better. Well your{NFS}ideas have been tried, we know what it entails and it`s not good for fishermen. We`ve all heard the taglines by now, how we`re greedy or don`t care about wild fish, simply not true. As a society of farmers we defeated the gatherers long ago, the reason? Farming can support the masses, hunting/gathering can not.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:45 PM   #42
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Sounds like you don't like hatchery fish or meat fishermen much. I also get the impression that you like catching native fish and would like to see the Sandy a native catch and release fishery?

Problem with fishing for natives to use your own words, "in no way does it help sustain the native fish" Many people would argue that harassing fish that you do not intend to harvest as they are in on route to spawning is irresponsible.

So...if you do away with hatcheries for the sake of saving wild fish, I would say just simply do away with ALL fishing period, and go watch them spawn like a lot of people would like to see happen anyway.
where did i say in my post that i like to catch and release native steelhead???you already made my point CLOSE IT DOWN til it can even sustain a catch and release fishery.people just make excuses so they can keep on fishing.regardless of impact..this problem will NEVER go away by dumping millions of hatchery smolts into a river every year,it makes no sence to me,if the river cant sustain even catch and release fishing without having to use inferior fish to keep people satisfies then yes SHUT IT DOWN....its always the same old SPORT fishermen just want to blame gillnetters and everybody else but when it comes to their agenda theyre never wrong...
like i said take the clackamas and make it the holier than thou meat fishery that you seem to want,,when you take a river with declining steelhead numbers and then want to prop them up with hatchery fish just so you can keep fishing for dinner is selfish in my book.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:01 PM   #43
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where did i say in my post that i like to catch and release native steelhead???you already made my point CLOSE IT DOWN til it can even sustain a catch and release fishery.people just make excuses so they can keep on fishing.regardless of impact..this problem will NEVER go away by dumping millions of hatchery smolts into a river every year,it makes no sence to me,if the river cant sustain even catch and release fishing without having to use inferior fish to keep people satisfies then yes SHUT IT DOWN....its always the same old SPORT fishermen just want to blame gillnetters and everybody else but when it comes to their agenda theyre never wrong...
like i said take the clackamas and make it the holier than thou meat fishery that you seem to want,,when you take a river with declining steelhead numbers and then want to prop them up with hatchery fish just so you can keep fishing for dinner is selfish in my book.

I guess we are in agreement then!

Just shut it all down! And life would be simpler with salmon tags to buy, no gill net, or regulation arguments. It would make the salmon farmers very happy too.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:02 PM   #44
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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like i said take the clackamas and make it the holier than thou meat fishery that you seem to want
Well we tried that experiment on the NFL and the Cow, now the NFS wants to end or restrict those programs too. I think if you give this group an inch{we`ve already given up too much} they`ll soon want the whole mile. Bill
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:12 PM   #45
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thought some might be interested in this, soon coming to a river near you.






call on odfw to end hatchery stockings on the sandy river


the only hope for a recovery of sandy river salmon and steelhead is the termination of its hatchery program



runs of salmon and steelhead on the sandy are currently 3-10% of their historic abundance, and continuing to decline year after year. Much of this decline can be linked to an unaccountable hatchery program.

the odfw has known for decades that hatchery fish reduce the fitness and long term abundance of wild fish, yet they continue to cater to consumptive users of the resource and have allowed this demand to eclipse their conservation mission, under state law and their own rules. If future generations are to ever glimpse a wild spawning salmon, this must change.

native sandy river fall chinook, spring chinook, coho and winter steelhead are currently listed under the endangered species act, and chum salmon have gone extinct.

in a recent portland tribune article, odfw district biologist todd alsbury said that reducing the sandy river hatchery program is a "last resort." it is clear that the odfw has no intention of actually protecting our endangered fish.

as a supporter of oregon's native fish, please call on odfw to terminate their harmful sandy river hatchery program.



tell odfw you value wild fish

click the link below:
nfs action alert petition to odfw






photo courtesy of spencer miles











sincerely,

native fish society
221 molalla ave., suite 100
oregon city, or 97045
503-496-0807
admin@nativefishsociety.org
www.nativefishsociety.org



not if i have anything to say about this!
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:12 PM   #46
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As a society of farmers we defeated the gatherers long ago, the reason? Farming can support the masses, hunting/gathering can not.
In case you missed this part. Bill
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:19 PM   #47
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where did i say in my post that i like to catch and release native steelhead???you already made my point CLOSE IT DOWN til it can even sustain a catch and release fishery.people just make excuses so they can keep on fishing.regardless of impact..this problem will NEVER go away by dumping millions of hatchery smolts into a river every year,it makes no sence to me,if the river cant sustain even catch and release fishing without having to use inferior fish to keep people satisfies then yes SHUT IT DOWN....its always the same old SPORT fishermen just want to blame gillnetters and everybody else but when it comes to their agenda theyre never wrong...
like i said take the clackamas and make it the holier than thou meat fishery that you seem to want,,when you take a river with declining steelhead numbers and then want to prop them up with hatchery fish just so you can keep fishing for dinner is selfish in my book.
You do not like to eat fish thats for sure mabey you should stick to the yamhill river and fish for that native run of coho that comes up that river!
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:39 PM   #48
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quoted directly from the source,

"Wild and hatchery fish are not the same, as anglers and scientists know. Yet the federal government is moving to count wild and hatchery fish as a single population – thereby ensuring that threatened salmon and steelhead will not receive the Endangered Species Act protections that they need to survive. The Native Fish Society is fighting on every possible front to overturn this flawed policy."
http://nativefishsociety.org/index.p...t-initiatives/

Its simply disgusting to see what is happening right now, how is this going to help improve the wild returns/ populations do they have any supporting evidence. There is no direct evidence that proves this, its all hyped up and written to all of you that want to believe every thing you hear. As it has been stated already what NFS stands for is not good for the "common" fisherman. Some of you have caught on, and some still stand in a phase of disbelief.



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Old 01-15-2011, 07:08 PM   #49
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Hatchery fish are the same as wild fish mantra has been reascended.
If this does in fact happen, ODFW will manage this wild fishery with a goal of limited harvest.
This is one of their mission statements.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:17 PM   #50
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Hatchery fish reduce wild fish abundance by 87% over what period of time in this unbiased study that someone will publish someday.

The Sandy in my youth used to close every year on opening day of trout season in April and open again September 1st because there was no summer steelhead run or spring Chinook run or at best a remnant Spring Chinook run to small to allow angling. Then in the early 70's summer steelhead were introduced and Spring Chinook were reintroduced. That reintroduction of hatchery Spring Chinook resulted in the wild run you feel the need to protect. When it comes to Sandy River spring Chinook it is very unlikely without hatcheries we would have a wild run. They are not native they are wild descendants of hatchery origin spawners.

Whatever Spring Chinook are in the Sandy today came into existence since the introduction of hatchery Spring Chinook in the 70's.
cedar creek is the only hatchery on the sandy. Thats where the coho return to fall Chinooks no higher then oxbow park. Your right about the springers and the summers all planted. Now it was always closed to salmon above brightwood bridge. So where is this run of wild fish. There was a small run that used to come up late. Bet there still there but theres no way to tell we have no way of counting them. In the late 70s there seemed to be plenty of fish and no problems. I never knew the sandy to have great run of wilds. shutting it downs not the answer I wish I had the answers but I dont Im a fisherman

Brad
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:27 PM   #51
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Quoted directly from the source,

"Wild and hatchery fish are not the same, as anglers and scientists know. Yet the federal government is moving to count wild and hatchery fish as a single population – thereby ensuring that threatened salmon and steelhead will not receive the Endangered Species Act protections that they need to survive. The Native Fish Society is fighting on every possible front to overturn this flawed policy."
http://nativefishsociety.org/index.p...t-initiatives/

Its simply disgusting to see what is happening right now, how is this going to help improve the wild returns/ populations do they have any supporting evidence. There is no direct evidence that proves this, its all hyped up and written to all of you that want to believe every thing you hear. As it has been stated already what NFS stands for is not good for the "common" fisherman. Some of you have caught on, and some still stand in a phase of disbelief.



Daniel C. French

Great post Dan.

Consider the following:

There has been hatchery programs in Oregon for over 130 years. Deer interbreed -Bench leg. Hatchery Rainbow interbreed with native cutthroat in the lower Nestucca - Cutbow. Dogs, cats, people, birds, tigars and lions, horses and mules and so on...but not steelhead and salmon? After 130+ years? Really?

In a few of the posts above it has been suggested to go totaly or in part catch and release. Ask Jack Glass how that would affect his business or the many other guides in Oregon. Or Alumaweld, EZ loader, Fishermans Marine, gas stations, motels and so on. Not to mention the loss in licence and tag revenue. Loss of jobs and business is not acceptable.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:47 PM   #52
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

some things have been proven as fact and are plainly obvious to even the most casual observer.

1. hatchery fish that stay in the system and spawn with wild fish reduce the total number of wild fish in the system,, it has happened every single time... proven scientifically and easily observed anecdotal. it's a fact if you believe differently you believe what is factually incorrect. there is no room for opinion on this issue , it is black and white, a done deal. you can choose to believe differently but do not post that opinion on this board it is incorrect.

2. the Native fish society is made up of ANGLERS who want to be able to fish the Sandy river as many of them do. They believe that the ONLY way that there will be a future for the fisheries of the Sandy river is if the wild fish are saved. They believe that the Sandy rivers wild fish are in grave peril because of hatchery operations. They believe that if nothing is done about the hatchery the fisheries they love on that river will disappear. This is personal NOT political and is all about sport fishing.

There is a right and a wrong to this issue. Hatcheries are always bad for wild fish. Wild fish are Always good for the future. Pure wild fish still exist. This is not a matter of opinion but a matter of proven fact.


I am passionate and angry about this issue. Angry that so many are so willing to sacrifice the future of this beautiful river for selfish reasons.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:59 PM   #53
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Great post Dan.

Consider the following:

There has been hatchery programs in Oregon for over 130 years. Deer interbreed -Bench leg. Hatchery Rainbow interbreed with native cutthroat in the lower Nestucca - Cutbow. Dogs, cats, people, birds, tigars and lions, horses and mules and so on...but not steelhead and salmon? After 130+ years? Really?

In a few of the posts above it has been suggested to go totaly or in part catch and release. Ask Jack Glass how that would affect his business or the many other guides in Oregon. Or Alumaweld, EZ loader, Fishermans Marine, gas stations, motels and so on. Not to mention the loss in licence and tag revenue. Loss of jobs and business is not acceptable.

Another thing you might add, is that this would not only affect Oregon guides. Salmon/ Steelhead hatcheries are being shut down and ran out, all over and up and down the PNW. Its sickening to see how hatcheries are built, using tax payer money, just to turn around and see it all become a less than aesthetic to look at. People wake up and take a look around and look at the so called "bettering the fishery groups" we have let, slip merely by us in the faint of our eyes!



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Old 01-15-2011, 08:00 PM   #54
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

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Boat tater -

I'm referring to Table 6-3. For spring chinook and winter steelhead the highest threat is from hatcheries. For Sandy river coho, hatcheries are not the highest threat, which seems somewhat suspicious as it is the highest threat for other listed coho populations.

Please provide table 6-3 so that we can all see what it is you are referring to and please know that I have the plan in front of me and will check.


Actually for all species the listed threats were consistent and as follows: Tributary habitat (you know those small streams that the huge population in this area have built their homes and farms on), Estuary habitat (again completely diked or industrialized, Hydro (has been addressed big time but not long enough ago to determine what affect that will have), harvest ( in steam harvest seems well controlled however ocean and lower Columbia harvest could use some work), hatchery (production numbers have been severely reduced and broodstock management has been altered in recognition of all scientific recommendations), and predation

There is no fall chinook hatchery program on the Sandy, which explains why the greater threat to those fish is from harvest.

Actually the executive summary for late fall chinook and as I stated before for all fish populations in the Sandy lists tributary habitat as the greatest threat.

Curious, who on here thinks that the Sandy fishes better now than it did 10 or 20 or 30 years ago?

I can tell you for certain that the Sandy fishes much better today for summer steelhead and spring chinook than it did 30 plus years ago. As stated in an earlier post prior to the early 70's it closed every year the last week in April and remained closed until Sept. 1st because there was no summer run and if there was a spring chinook run it was small enough to be unnoticeable or provide any fishery. In the early 70's ODFW began planting hatchery spring chinook and summer steelhead so rather than suffering an 87% decline as you indicated in an earlier post what ever "wild" run exists in the Sandy increased from virtually none to what exists today. The winter steelhead fishery is definitely less productive however it use to rely on much larger hatchery plants which were unclipped so determining wild proportions was impossible. These plants have been severely reduced.

All of our fisheries are slowly dwindling away, and in hopes and passing our sport down to future generations, I think we really need to figure out a way to recover our fish.

We have recently had the first spring chinook seasons on the Columbia in over 30 years and the Sandy is currently open to fishing 12 months out of the year rather than 8. This last fall coastal chinook runs were down but improved, coho runs were historical, summer steelhead runs were great, and winter steelhead runs hatchery and wild are returning far above normal or average for this time of year on most rivers.

Yes, hatcheries aren't the only impact, but they are certainly one of the largest and more often or not, the largest limiting factor on wild populations.

This is simply not true

Personally, I'm a steelhead fisherman, and steelhead on the sandy continue to collapse. The largest threat to these fish is an unaccountable hatchery program.

Also not true, see above.

If you all have suggestions for other ways to help recover these fish, I'm all ears.

I really doubt that you are all ears or you would have followed what the recovery plan you quote suggests rather than suggest the elimination of hatcheries which it does not. Then again maybe you are all ears and you should have someone read it to you.

Spencer
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:01 PM   #55
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Short and simple.
Pro native catch & release guys,
arguing,
With the pro hatchery guys catch & keep.
Enviros dream.
Pretty soon nobody fishes at all.
Who wins,go figure.
Lets get it together quit arguing with each other.
Were not going to win this battle divided,
we better join together before its to late.

JMHO,Mike
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:03 PM   #56
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Passionate is good, killing family business is not!

Since we are so passionate about this, do we have any shining examples to prove that runs have been brought back to historic levels?

Any know how the Mollala is fishing these days?

While it may be a good fishery, I dont think it ever made it back to historic run levels.

One Oregon River That had all the Hatchery fish eliminated where the wild runs not just grew, but went to historic levels? Can any one name one?

I can think of a few that didnt! The stream I caught my first Fall Chinook, Coho and Winter steelhead on use to have a run of hatchery silvers and winter steelhead. The hatchery fish were cut and the streams wild runs are not historic at all!, The plants were cut well over 12 years ago! Havent seen much if any increase there!

Elimination of all hatchery fish is a radical decision that I have not personally seen live up to the claims it was given


RB

Last edited by Jacks Tackle; 01-15-2011 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:14 PM   #57
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfisher View Post
Sounds like you don't like hatchery fish or meat fishermen much. I also get the impression that you like catching native fish and would like to see the Sandy a native catch and release fishery?

Problem with fishing for natives to use your own words, "in no way does it help sustain the native fish" Many people would argue that harassing fish that you do not intend to harvest as they are in on route to spawning is irresponsible.

So...if you do away with hatcheries for the sake of saving wild fish, I would say just simply do away with ALL fishing period, and go watch them spawn like a lot of people would like to see happen anyway.

Good points....completely agree. When people start defining quality for others, no one wins.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:21 PM   #58
rob allen
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

If we did nothing because of how it affected one family business we would never do anything.

My home rivers wild steelhead run was destroyed by the direct and indirect effects of hatchery operations and by those effects alone. This home river that I knew like the palm of my hand and which I have always dreamed of guiding. My business opportunity was destroyed by a hatchery.

On the other hand our rivers do not owe anyone a living. The Sandy does not owe you a living nor the people who guide it, many of whom are my friends and members of the native fish society. if it's a choice between a small family business and wild fish on the Sandy i will pick the fish every single time and anyone who truly loves the river and it's fish WILL feel the same way.

I don't mean to sound crass and cold about this issue but seriously someone has to sacrifice!!! The fish have already sacrificed as much as they possibly can, that's why they are in decline!!! We ARE killing them off. they are in a downward trend!

Sorry but i am pulling my hair out here.. what you are saying is that your business is more important than the river. plain and simple I disagree.


by the way i am done with this thread I have said my piece. It's the most important issue concerning Columbia river wild fish stocks and I believe there is a lot of misinformation being intentionally put out there by some and tolerated by those who are influential. I don't want to turn this into a fight so i'll stop.

everything i have said however is not only true but the truth.


by the way no one can name a river where a hatchery went in and wild fish remained at historic levels....

Last edited by rob allen; 01-15-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:30 PM   #59
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencermiles View Post
Boat tater -

I'm referring to Table 6-3. For spring chinook and winter steelhead the highest threat is from hatcheries. For Sandy river coho, hatcheries are not the highest threat, which seems somewhat suspicious as it is the highest threat for other listed coho populations.

There is no fall chinook hatchery program on the Sandy, which explains why the greater threat to those fish is from harvest.

Curious, who on here thinks that the Sandy fishes better now than it did 10 or 20 or 30 years ago?

All of our fisheries are slowly dwindling away, and in hopes and passing our sport down to future generations, I think we really need to figure out a way to recover our fish.

Yes, hatcheries aren't the only impact, but they are certainly one of the largest and more often or not, the largest limiting factor on wild populations.

Personally, I'm a steelhead fisherman, and steelhead on the sandy continue to collapse. The largest threat to these fish is an unaccountable hatchery program.

If you all have suggestions for other ways to help recover these fish, I'm all ears.

Spencer

You want to shut off supply and you and too many other groups are not doing anything about demand. Shut down the hatcheries without stopping all commercial harvest and you just sentenced the remaining fish in smaller numbers to death thru predation and overharvest.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:37 PM   #60
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Default Re: Native Fish Society calls for End of Sandy River Hatchery Programs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacks Tackle View Post
Passionate is good, killing family business is not!

Since we are so passionate about this, do we have any shining examples to prove that runs have been brought back to historic levels?

Any know how the Mollala is fishing these days?

While it may be a good fishery, I dont think it ever made it back to historic run levels.

One Oregon River That had all the Hatchery fish eliminated where the wild runs not just grew, but went to historic levels? Can any one name one?

I can think of a few that didnt! The stream I caught my first Fall Chinook, Coho and Winter steelhead on use to have a run of hatchery silvers and winter steelhead. The hatchery fish were cut and the streams wild runs are not historic at all!, The plants were cut well over 12 years ago! Havent seen much if any increase there!

Elimination of all hatchery fish is a radical decision that I have not personally seen live up to the claims it was given


RB

Exactly what I was thinking Rob. Do they have any case studies that prove cutting hatchery production on a river dramatically increases the native run?? I have never heard of one!!!! I will donate time and money to fight this and I know many others that will do the same! I had heard rumors years ago, when they were discussing the removal of Marmot, that the sandy would turn into a native C&R river only if the dam was removed. I am actually shocked at some of the people listed in support of such a move.

I obviously disagree with the organization that is trying to make it just that.

Oh, btw, we owe this organization nothing. If you think that we as fisherman owe them something please explain why. What have they done that would support fisherman that want to catch, and harvest fish, in the NW.
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